IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[Bootsctr]

bbm - wow... very interesting and imo a great catch on the part of both our onsite reporters!

Though I had hoped that neither of our ws reporters would feel the need to turn around and go back to 7bridges due to technical failures, I now think somebody local needs to go there before the wild, green tangle of summer covers everything! lease:

Jumping off your post FoxyLady :flashbacka little Jimmy Hendrix running through my brain), if our two :hero: :detective: :detective: do venture back to 7-Bridges, be careful! You definitely have allowed us to be at the scene up close and personal!

I thought it was interesting that the wreaths that were placed there were not facing the path as you come into the area where the bodies were found. From 3ck's video #5 ? I believe, the wreaths were placed away from the trail that you walked into the area, facing the water. Need to watch it again. Makes me wonder if that is how the girls were found, heads facing the direction of the wreaths? I wonder if the girls were posed. Probably not since the killer wanted to get away ASAP. But I do wonder if they were found face up, face down, were they bound? Morbid, I know, but would there be any significace in how they were placed when found. It is possible the girls were killed at Maiden Lane, but I don't think so. He got them and took them straight away to 7-Bridges. I think he was back in town before dusk. He probably never dreamed there would be an airplane and helicopter in the air for the search that same day though. Or maybe he did. . .

 

[Bootsctr]

Could somebody have driven a 4-wheel vehicle or quad along that exposed riverbank?

Regarding a quad, are you thinking that someone had a quad in their truck and took the girls to 7-Bridges and then used the quad to take them back to where their bodies were found? I just can't see someone riding a quad from Evansdale to 7-Bridges with two girls. Maybe there is a hidden path, but it seems someone would have noticed someone driving a quad with 3 people on it. Seems like that would have attracted a lot of attention. Maybe that was the lure: Meet me at Meyers Lake and I'll take you for a ride on my 4-wheeler...:waitasec:

 

[threecrazykids]

Ty 3cks... great description and most appreciated!

Do I dare impose further on you and Cinder by asking another question... this one which is probably of no interest to anybody but me!?!

Well, apparently I do dare: When you were near 7bridges did you happen to notice a farm bldg/outbldg and think "aha... bet that's the bldg LE gathered in on Dec. 5th to make plans for the next day's search, etc.?"

ETA: I'm only looking for a yes or no answer here.

No I didn't see any outbuildings/farms/etc. in the immediate area of the park. I didn't even see a shelter of any kind (like the picnic type they are building at the memorial at the lake).

 

[otto]

BBM

Your reasoning is solid, assuming the girls were abducted by a stranger. However, that is your opinion, not something that "is a given". JMO

I feel the girls willingly left with someone known to them, and may not have known until the last minute that anything bad was going to happen to them. JMO. Therefore I don't feel it "is a given" that the girls were restrained from the moment they were abducted. And I believe it's possible the girls walked willingly through the grass/brush if they were with a trusted adult. Again, JMO.

I really don't think that Wylma, who was looking after the children at the time that they vanished, had anything to do with where the children were found. Therefore, I think it's a given that these children were abducted by a non-familial person ... essentially, a stranger. Whether the children had met the stranger before makes no difference in terms of the violence of an abduction and murder.

I think we'd all prefer to believe that an abduction/murder is a gentle event, but the reality is that an abduction/murder is not a gentle, or kind, event. Even Natalie Holloways mother preferred to believe that her daughter passed out and the perp chose to hide the body rather than provide medical assistance. What we know today is that the suspect in Natalie's murder was anything but gentle - given the evidence in the murder of his second victim.

Much as we want to believe that these children had no idea what was happening to them until the last moment, I just don't think that's realistic. Jessica Ridgeway was not treated in a gentle manner prior to her murder either and there is no reason to assume that these children believed that they were on a field trip to a remote location with a non-familial person ... a field trip that ended in their unexpected assault an murder. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Aymstriss]

BBM

Your reasoning is solid, assuming the girls were abducted by a stranger. However, that is your opinion, not something that "is a given". JMO

I feel the girls willingly left with someone known to them, and may not have known until the last minute that anything bad was going to happen to them. JMO. Therefore I don't feel it "is a given" that the girls were restrained from the moment they were abducted. And I believe it's possible the girls walked willingly through the grass/brush if they were with a trusted adult. Again, JMO.

Yes! Yes! Yes!


Because 2 girls were taken, during a summer day, at a park, within view of construction workers and more than likely cars stopped or going very slow on the interstate....I truly believe that the girls left willingly with somebody they knew.

 

[palaminodee]

Sleuthers:
What is your opinion as to why no other kidnappings and/or child murders have not occurred in this area since the girls horrible event? Where is the killer??
A. the perp(s) left the area
B. they are "laying low" because this crime became so high profile
C. it was personal against someone in the family
D. they are currently in jail or prison facing other charges (does LE know, suspect or not suspect them??)
E. other reason (maybe on drugs?, "new" sex offender??)

I personally do not know what to think about the motive and why they have not committed another crime. Of course I pray they do not, but what really concerns me, is that the potential is there if they are still "out there" and no arrest(s).

 

[superbee]

I agree that the girls may have been restrained or even in the trunk of a car.
The person could have easily controlled the girls by taking one out of the car and walking her to the spot where she was killed and then going back to the car to get the other one out. They just ended up in two separate places.

Your one by one theory makes sense, would give the perp total control. Such evil. My heart aches for those two poor little girls. I'm glad there is a young deer grazing on our front lawn to make me realize the beauty in this often terrible world.

I think in the trunk of cars nowdays, unless it is an old vehicle, a person would have to be drugged or restrained. Mine, and it is not expensive and 8 years old, has a pull toggle in the trunk, and the center of the back seat can be kicked out. And the interior door locks can be opened manually.

 

[carbuff]

Of course there's no reason to assume that the people who placed the wreaths knew where either body was found. They might have put them in what they thought was the best location, or displayed them most attractively, or was easy to reach, or out of the weather or in the sunshine, or whatever. Or they might have guessed like we are.

 

[carbuff]

Regarding a quad, are you thinking that someone had a quad in their truck and took the girls to 7-Bridges and then used the quad to take them back to where their bodies were found? I just can't see someone riding a quad from Evansdale to 7-Bridges with two girls. Maybe there is a hidden path, but it seems someone would have noticed someone driving a quad with 3 people on it. Seems like that would have attracted a lot of attention. Maybe that was the lure: Meet me at Meyers Lake and I'll take you for a ride on my 4-wheeler...:waitasec:

I was thinking quad in the back of a pickup, with girls in the back either alive or dead. Drive the truck to Seven Bridges, then ferry the bodies on the quad. But that only works if the riverbank is bare like that from the parking lot to the location, and firm enough to drive on.

Or just bodies in the back of a four-wheel-drive vehicle, like a Jeep, that could drive on the exposed gravel.

Because one of those marks whether the gravel meets the grass has always looked like a tire mark to me...but it could also be my imagination. So just wondering whether the people who visited the park noticed whether it was possible.

 

[Bootsctr]

View attachment 31820

This picture is for my favorite mod, nurse and her love for hummingbirds.

The Navaho People believe that hummingbirds are messengers between Earth and Heaven.

There are some who believe birds are the highest form of reincarnation. . .

 

[threecrazykids]

Could somebody have driven a 4-wheel vehicle or quad along that exposed riverbank?

You could MAYBE get a quad down there, but there is no boat ramp or anything at this park, so getting it back out would be a pain in the *advertiser censored*.

Keep in mind, this dried up riverbed is just a section of a curve in the river...so more than likely I'm ASSUMING it would still not be "stable" ground to drive on. It would be a sandy, silty, muddy consistency which would be very risky to drive on with any amount of weight, as getting stuck would be very probable.

Again, no boat ramp, so a vehicle couldn't be used either.

 

[superbee]

BBM. Is there a way to tell what nights the moon was full or close and cross check it against cloud cover sky? Maybe that will clue us into the when, assuming it was at night.

For reference I have played in similar dense woods with full moonlight and didn't need a flashlight to see... Especially since I was familiar with the woods.

I live in the woods, and on a clear, moonlit night I can walk around as easily as in the daytime. We have to be careful because those nights it is like a critter freeway here, even grizzly bears have passed right through our yard. We had a cougar lurking last summer, this is a major deer habitat. So not too much playing in the moonlight but one can see and get around very well.

It would be a good idea to check the moon phase then in July, and was it clear that night and for some following nights? I seem to remember discussion about a light rain the morning the girls disappeared. I don't know about Iowa weather, but here it can change in a blink of an eye.

In one Agatha Christie book the solution was the weather one night. A person claimed to have seen things in the moonlight, but in reality it was a dark and stormy night. I think moonlight would have made the perps activities easier.

 

[threecrazykids]

And wasn't one of the pairs of footwear flip flops? Weren't they supposedly found with one of the bodies? Flip flops are always falling off my feet, so wouldn't they fall off the feet of a dead body being carried? Risky business in the dark, unless they were carried in somehow with the body. And why bother? Hopefully the perp touched the flip flops in a way that left some evidence.

When I watched the videos and saw the uneven ground I can't imagine anyone walking around safely there in the dark, unless it was a bright moonlit night. Carrying a body makes it harder, how could they keep from tripping?

Keep in mind, only Heather said she identified ELIZABETH'S shoes. Nowhere did LE state that Lyric was identified by her shoes.

These girls would be treated as 2 separate "instances" when it comes to the families (I hope that makes sense).

They wouldn't have taken both Lyric AND Elizabeth's shoes to Heather to identify. Someone from Lyric's family (even though they are still family) would have been taken to probably Misty or Grandma to identify any clothing of Lyric's (if it was found at the scene).

 

[SapphireSteel]

These children were kidnapped. They were not on a field trip to the park. They were not free to run at any time after they met the perp. At the moment they were separated from their bikes, they were restrained. That is a given. In the stats, even young children are physcially assaulted at the time of the abduction.

I have no idea how the perp managed to restrain both children, but clearly that happened.

Drew Sjodin was in a parking lot when she was abducted. A knife was used and the sheath was found on the ground at the abduction site. Her body was found when the snow melted in an open field. She was injured during the abduction and her blood was in the perp's vehicle. That could also have happened in this case. Morgan Harrington was abducted and murdered. Her body was found not buried in a remote field. She had numerous injuries such as broken bones. That could have happened in this case as well. This was an extremely violent event ... not a drive to the county park, a walk in the field and then all of a sudden an assault while one child was able to run away.

That is an assumption, not a "given".

The girls quite possibly knew and trusted their abductor/s and went along willingly.

The ease with which the girls vanished, the placement of the bodies, the lack of a struggle anywhere, all indicate this was not an "extremely violent event".

:moo:

 

[otto]

I live in the woods, and on a clear, moonlit night I can walk around as easily as in the daytime. We have to be careful because those nights it is like a critter freeway here, even grizzly bears have passed right through our yard. We had a cougar lurking last summer, this is a major deer habitat. So not too much playing in the moonlight but one can see and get around very well.

It would be a good idea to check the moon phase then in July, and was it clear that night and for some following nights? I seem to remember discussion about a light rain the morning the girls disappeared. I don't know about Iowa weather, but here it can change in a blink of an eye.

In one Agatha Christie book the solution was the weather one night. A person claimed to have seen things in the moonlight, but in reality it was a dark and stormy night. I think moonlight would have made the perps activities easier.

 

[superbee]

There are some who believe birds are the highest form of reincarnation. . .

I can certainly relate to that, we have a big raven who has been around our neighbourhood for a long, long time. He used to sit in a big pine and talk to me while I worked in our garden. I could just feel his good energy, that he was a wise old bird. I liked having him near me. He never touched anything in the garden, but was very happy to have ripe tomatoes put on a stump for his enjoyment. Like hummingbirds, he seemed to recognize red. I had to give up gardening, but a close neighbour started in, so I put out tomatoes for him by her garden, and he flew over. The raven watches over her as she gardens now and she feels his good energy too.

 

[otto]

There are some who believe birds are the highest form of reincarnation. . .

Like dragons with a short neck.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Keep in mind, only Heather said she identified ELIZABETH'S shoes. Nowhere did LE state that Lyric was identified by her shoes.

These girls would be treated as 2 separate "instances" when it comes to the families (I hope that makes sense).

They wouldn't have taken both Lyric AND Elizabeth's shoes to Heather to identify. Someone from Lyric's family (even though they are still family) would have been taken to probably Misty or Grandma to identify any clothing of Lyric's (if it was found at the scene).

I don't know about that either.

Heather and Drew had custody of Lyric for a long time. It is quite possible Heather bought Lyric's shoes herself imo...

I think the lack of commenting on Lyric stems from the family estrangement, not necessarily a lack of knowledge.

Also, apparently Kent Smock is a close personal friend, I can't imagine he didn't inform them about Lyric as well knowing the parental relationship they had with her.

Of course :moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Seems like a good time to point out that we don't know when the girls were left at 7 bridges.

It may have been 13 July but they may easily have been kept alive for days or weeks.

 

[threecrazykids]

One other thing that I find kind of interesting is that there are actually 2 parks in that area, yet the perp chose Seven Bridges.

Siggelkow Park (also spelled Siggelkov Access County Park on google maps) is literally ON THE SAME ROAD you take to Seven Bridges (from Fairbank). On our drive to Seven Bridges, we came upon Siggelkow Park which also had a vehicle parked outside the gate, but there were a few kids running around in the grassy area inside the gate of the park.

It makes sense though, that the perp would use Seven Bridges to dispose of the bodies, as Siggelkow Park could be more active. There are campsites (although primitive), but there IS a boat ramp there.

However, Siggelkow park would be DOWN river from Seven Bridge, and that stretch is not a popular stretch to canoe. There is nowhere at Seven Bridges to really get out...you'd have to climb up the bank at Seven Bridges to get out.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_eb5c81b6-42db-11e2-b39a-001a4bcf887a.html

http://www.mycountyparks.com/County/Black-Hawk/Park/Siggelkow-Park.aspx