IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[georger]

I have to say I am a bit shocked.
What is everyone's opinion:
Do you all think this person is that sophisticated of a criminal?
Or do you think they are very controlling and keeping all that know quiet and in fear?
Do you think it's right under our noses and we do not see it?
Do you think they are a loaner and no one else knows?
Do you think if they found the vehicle they would find more evidence?

Might point to the girls dumping their bikes, leaving a purse and getting into a vehicle - all voluntarily - and the next time they turn up is at 7-Bridges. No evidence at those locations which means they evidently have not found a third crime site?

Smock said nothing about his own dept. and/or the Sheriff's office still being active in the
investigation. Or, maybe he meant to say they are and there are 3 additional people at work.
And no further mention of a white van/SUV.

All adds up to nothing again.

 

[threecrazykids]

From the same article:

snip

Smock said he hopes to announce in the “very near future” whether Klunder had any involvement in the case.

Despite the apparent lack of clues and suspects, Smock said the case is far from cold. Three investigators from the state Division of Criminal Investigation and the FBI are working on the case full-time, and more are assigned as new information becomes available, he said.

snip

“I know people get tired of hearing that the case is under investigation ... but with so little physical evidence at the scene where the girls’ bicycles were found and the amount of time that had gone by until when the girls’ bodies were found, we have to be very protective of what we have,” Smock said.

Feeling a little "Negative Nancy" today, but it appears to me they finally admitted what most of us have felt for a very long time...they don't have squat.

This to me reads that not only do they have very few solid leads as to who did this, but that there was such advanced decomp of the bodies, they don't have a whole lot of DNA or scientific evidence either.

Being very protective of what they have indicates they have very little.

I just can't believe we are coming up on a year with no signs of hope in the way of justice for these two little girls. Absolutely heartbreaking.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This is the most important part IMO


“I know people get tired of hearing that the case is under investigation ... but with so little physical evidence at the scene where the girls’ bicycles were found and the amount of time that had gone by until when the girls’ bodies were found, we have to be very protective of what we have,” Smock said.

I read from that that there is evidence...just not much.

Smock's also told us LOUD AND CLEAR why they aren't talking about what they do have...if you are "protective" it's because you think something's at risk.

Why would the evidence be At Risk if LE tells the public what they have?

Answer - because LE don't trust the public in this particular case. Silence is more important to the investigation than sharing what they have with the good folk of Evansdale.

They have a suspect/s so broadcasting the evidence is not going to help at all.

:cow:

 

[Mitsana]

From the same article:

snip

Smock said he hopes to announce in the “very near future” whether Klunder had any involvement in the case.

Despite the apparent lack of clues and suspects, Smock said the case is far from cold. Three investigators from the state Division of Criminal Investigation and the FBI are working on the case full-time, and more are assigned as new information becomes available, he said.

snip

“I know people get tired of hearing that the case is under investigation ... but with so little physical evidence at the scene where the girls’ bicycles were found and the amount of time that had gone by until when the girls’ bodies were found, we have to be very protective of what we have,” Smock said.

To put a possibly positive spin on this, the only way they would know for certain (and be able to announce) whether Klunder had involvement is if they found evidence that he did (if they didn't find evidence, it would just mean that they didn't find evidence, not that he wasn't involved).

Although there is "so little physical evidence at the scene" they might have some evidence from Klunder's truck. Maybe a paint scrape from a bike or a matching hair or something like that and they need to wait for analysis and verification.

I hope this turns out to be the case.

 

[watcher9]

From the same article, I read it to mean they believe it was a stranger abduction.

BBM
About 800,000 children are reported missing each year, but only about 100 of those turn out, like this case, to be stranger abductions — “the worst of the worst,” Lowery said. That two children were taken is even rarer.

 

[Squeeze]

To put a possibly positive spin on this, the only way they would know for certain (and be able to announce) whether Klunder had involvement is if they found evidence that he did (if they didn't find evidence, it would just mean that they didn't find evidence, not that he wasn't involved).

Although there is "so little physical evidence at the scene" they might have some evidence from Klunder's truck. Maybe a paint scrape from a bike or a matching hair or something like that and they need to wait for analysis and verification.

I hope this turns out to be the case.

And I'll say it again... if Klunder had a white SUV at the time... that they can't find.... that they need to place at the scene.....

 

[passionflower]

my question is, LE saying to parents to be careful of child murderer out there? or xalling it an isolated case of 2 little girls murdered? Is the community scared???

 

[georger]

To put a possibly positive spin on this, the only way they would know for certain (and be able to announce) whether Klunder had involvement is if they found evidence that he did (if they didn't find evidence, it would just mean that they didn't find evidence, not that he wasn't involved).

Although there is "so little physical evidence at the scene" they might have some evidence from Klunder's truck. Maybe a paint scrape from a bike or a matching hair or something like that and they need to wait for analysis and verification.

I hope this turns out to be the case.

LE knows what to look for and how. That there is nothing, means there is
nothing ... specifically involving Klunder ... or anyone else.

 

[Squeeze]

my question is, LE saying to parents to be careful of child murderer out there? or xalling it an isolated case of 2 little girls murdered? Is the community scared???

They are just saying to be vigilant. They aren't specifically saying that "a killer is on the loose." I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Foxfire]

In many ways, Times have changed since this decade old 2002 CA article was aired and in many other ways. It is still the same...imo

<sniped & BBM>
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/28/local/me-coldcases28

Children's Unsolved Murders Add Questions to the Pain

Crime: Fourteen kids in the state have been abducted and killed by strangers since 1991. Six cases remain open.
July 28, 2002

"It never goes away," Potkonjak said. "You wonder what we could do differently or could have done differently to solve such cases."

Her questions are all the more painful now, days after Samantha Runnion was kidnapped from in front of her Orange County home and later killed. The Runnion investigation--like the high-profile case nine years ago of Polly Klaas in Petaluma--ended with a relatively quick arrest.

But many other cases of children abducted and murdered are not resolved. The television cameras and news helicopters clear out and detectives move on to other cases. Families--and the community--are left to go on without knowing who is responsible for the crime, and whether the killer lives among them.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I have to say I am a bit shocked.
What is everyone's opinion:
Do you all think this person is that sophisticated of a criminal?
Or do you think they are very controlling and keeping all that know quiet and in fear?
Do you think it's right under our noses and we do not see it?
Do you think they are a loaner and no one else knows?
Do you think if they found the vehicle they would find more evidence?

Do I think this person is a sophisticated criminal? Yes and no. Yes in that they were clearly good enough to minimise evidence eft before. No in that while they may have been criminally clever in committing the crime, it does not follow that they are particularly intelligent in general. There have been several cases of perps who were not particularly intelligent who figured out how to successfully commit murder. Gary Ridgway is the poster boy for such criminals; his IQ has been reported at 74 but he figured out a method that left very little evidence.

Do I think they are very controlling and keeping all that know quiet and in fear? I don't think there is more than one person in the know. Yes, this perp is probably controlling in his intimate relationships but his partner(s) don't know why. For example, they may not know why they aren't allowed to visit his garage or go down in the basement or look around his TV room. I think the perp is relatively young (based on the ages of his two known victims) and so he may not yet be married but may have a succession of girlfriends, none of whom know anything about his secret life.

Do I think it's right under our noses and we do not see it? No. It is most likely that the perp has been turned in as a tip or was interviewed as part of the investigation but the dots have not yet lined up. There is an off chance that this was a perp who was travelling through, in the same manner that Joseph Duncan did, but since both known locations scream local knowledge, I don't think so.

Do I think they are a loaner and no one else knows? Not necessarily a loner but someone who knows how to keep his mouth shut. Probably someone who derives an extra thrill from having a secret that would horrify the people around him. I doubt he has truly close friends but he may well have a girlfriend or a succession of girlfriends. He may also be someone who attends a church regularly.

Do I think if they found the vehicle they would find more evidence? Maybe; most likely fibre evidence. I expect that vehicle has been cleaned, re-cleaned, detailed and re-detailed several times by now. It may also have been a stolen vehicle; one thing about older vehicles is that they are easier to steal because they are easier to start. People with older vehicles also tend not to be as vigilant about security because who would want to steal a 15+ year old vehicle? They're just not worth enough to be a typical target.

If it was stolen for 2 days and returned to where it was taken, the owner may never have realised it was stolen.

 

[SapphireSteel]

From the same article, I read it to mean they believe it was a stranger abduction.

BBM
About 800,000 children are reported missing each year, but only about 100 of those turn out, like this case, to be stranger abductions — “the worst of the worst,” Lowery said. That two children were taken is even rarer.

Lowery is not LE. He doesn't know (there's no arrest/exoneration) so probably should keep his assumptions to himself.

 

[georger]

Lowery is not LE. He doesn't know (there's no arrest/exoneration) so probably should keep his assumptions to himself.

Were dogs ever taken to 7-Bridges to look for a scent trail?

They say they searched the 7-Bridges park, just not where the bodies were
found. Did that search include the use of dogs?

 

[threecrazykids]

Were dogs ever taken to 7-Bridges to look for a scent trail?

They say they searched the 7-Bridges park, just not where the bodies were
found. Did that search include the use of dogs?

In all of the pics of 7 bridges, I didn't once see a dog. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but my guess is that they figured a dog prob isn't going to find a scent trail 5 months later. Not one that is going to lead to a killer. However, I wonder if a scent dog WAS used, if it would possibly be able to follow a scent trail from where the bodies were dropped to maybe where a weapon was hid.

Grainne would need to help us answer that one (as to whether a dog could follow any trail after 5 months of time, and element changes).

 

[threecrazykids]

Lowery is not LE. He doesn't know (there's no arrest/exoneration) so probably should keep his assumptions to himself.

I agree. A "stranger" who apparently knows how to get to, and dispose of two little girls, in a park that even locals weren't aware was there, let alone how to get to it.

Not buying that, AT ALL.

Maybe he means stranger to the girls (again, assumption) but this person (IMO) is not a stranger to the community of Evansdale.

 

[Foxfire]

Lowery is not LE. He doesn't know (there's no arrest/exoneration) so probably should keep his assumptions to himself.

SapphireSteel - RE: Lowery is not LE


<sniped & BBM> read more-
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Robert-Lowery/855772419


Robert G. Lowery, Jr. (Background/Credentials)

Prior to accepting his current position as the Executive Director of the Missing Children's Division for the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children Bob Lowery served over 30 years in public service, over 27 of those years as a law enforcement officer.

Bob served as the Assistant Chief of Police for the City of Florissant Police Department, an internationally accredited agency located in the northern suburbs of the City of St. Louis, Missouri. During his career, Major Lowery served in a variety of capacities including the Uniform Patrol Division, Tactical Operations/Hostage Rescue Team, Detective Division, Professional Standards, and Internal Inspections Division. The majority of his career was spent as a detective in the Crimes Against Persons Unit, where he directly supervised and investigated homicides, serious assaults, robberies and sex crimes. Mr. Lowery also served as the Commander of the Greater St. Louis Major Case Squad, one of the oldest and the largest multi-jurisdictional homicide task forces in the United States. The squad is comprised of over 500 detectives and supervisors representing 105 federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies. As Commander, he was directly responsible for these personnel and oversaw homicide investigations in the entire fourteen county St. Louis Metropolitan Region, which extends on both sides of the Mississippi River in both Missouri and Illinois. He has personally commanded some of the area's most high profile investigations, including cases of murder-for-hire, sexually motivated homicides (including one that involved a decapitation of a 13-year-old girl and another involving the strangulation of two small boys), narcotics and gang related cases, and cases of armed robbery/murder, to name just a few.
Mr. Lowery participated as a member of the Child Abduction Analysis Team (CAAT) for the FBI's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) in Quantico, Virginia. He was an original member of the Board of Advisors for the "Team Adam" Program for NCMEC, and additionally served on the selection committee for "Team Adam" consultants. Additionally, he is a Past President of the International Homicide Investigators Association and continues to serve the organization as a member of the Executive Board. He actively participated in organizing IHIA Symposia in St. Louis, Missouri; the FBI Academy at Quantico, Virginia; the National Crime Faculty - Bramshill, Hampshire, England; Houston, Texas; and Las Vegas, Nevada. He holds both a Bachelor of Arts Degree ("Summa *advertiser censored* Laude") and a Master of Science Degree from Lindenwood University in Business and Human Resource Management. He is a graduate of many advanced training schools on police management, including the FBI National Academy, Class 177. He also served as an adjunct instructor for the Criminal Justice Department at Lindenwood University in St. Louis, Missouri and guest lectures at several other universities and training schools.

Mr. Lowery provides law enforcement training on basic and advanced homicide investigation, interview and interrogation, crime scene, cold case investigation, and multi-jurisdictional case management.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Case Archive, everything start-to-finish:

http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cr...&page=1&_suid=1373289706847010885945996896196

 

[Bootsctr]

Hello everyone! I have a question and the answer may lie on Kathlynn's thread, but my computer is running on one leg today so I was hoping someone might have the answer on the girls' thread: Do we know if Kathlynn was sexually assaulted? All I remember reading was that she suffered sharp and blunt force trauma to the head. He was a strange bird for sure.

Hi Bunnyhop! It's good to be reading here again!

 

[Marilynilpa]

Hello everyone! I have a question and the answer may lie on Kathlynn's thread, but my computer is running on one leg today so I was hoping someone might have the answer on the girls' thread: Do we know if Kathlynn was sexually assaulted? All I remember reading was that she suffered sharp and blunt force trauma to the head. He was a strange bird for sure.

Hi Bunnyhop! It's good to be reading here again!

I've missed you, too.:blushing:

I haven't read anything about a sexual assault on Kathlynn.

 

[threecrazykids]

And I don't see any indications so far (from LE) that Lizzie and Lyric were sexually assaulted either.

The only reason any of that has been mentioned is because of Drew and his crusades against RSO...nothing from LE has indicated that they are looking for a sexual predator.