IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #36

[Marilynilpa]

I have no doubt that Lizzy biked much farther/longer than anyone knew. And I believe Mr. Carpenter when he said she came by his house, although I don't know if it was every night. I think Lizzy was a normal little girl who pushed the boundaries to see how much she could get away with. All JMO.

I plead guilty to doing the same thing myself as a kid.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Bumping for the girls.

 

[nikb]

I have no doubt that Lizzy biked much farther/longer than anyone knew. And I believe Mr. Carpenter when he said she came by his house, although I don't know if it was every night. I think Lizzy was a normal little girl who pushed the boundaries to see how much she could get away with. All JMO.

I plead guilty to doing the same thing myself as a kid.

I know very few kids who didn't... actually I don't think I know ANY who didn't push those boundaries. It's part of your 'job' at that age.

 

[BunnyHop]

Hi guys, interesting new development. I am reading, but not much to say.

eace:

 

[watcher9]

Read on the MSN site this morning an article about missing children cases and this jumped out at me. When I checked on the map, Bethany is outside of Oklahoma City which is on a straight shot up I-35N to Evansdale. It would take over 9 hours to get there unless you lived in Kansas City which is about half way in between the two towns. We also have a thread on this case.

Rozlin and Fawn Abell: The sisters living in Bethany, Okla., went out job hunting on July 25, 1985, and were never seen again. Rozlin was 18 and Fawn was 15.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...one-of-many-missing-children-cases/ar-BBjvBWQ

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...l-15-amp-Rozlin-Abell-18-Bethany-25-July-1985

 

[watcher9]

Hi guys, interesting new development. I am reading, but not much to say.

eace:

Do you have a link handy?

 

[BunnyHop]

Do you have a link handy?

I meant that I'm reading the thread and catching up on the recent firing. :blushing:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Hi guys, interesting new development. I am reading, but not much to say.

eace:

Hi, BunnyHop! Long time, no see.

 

[Wondergirl]

Here are 2 cold cases of 2 sets of girls who were abducted and never found.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-etan-patz-missing-children-20150509-story.html

 

[dotr]

Here are 2 cold cases of 2 sets of girls who were abducted and never found.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-etan-patz-missing-children-20150509-story.html

Also this 1961 Carlsbad, N.M. cold case, involving two young girls, Mattie and Patty who went off for a summers swim, their bodies found by hunters ...

http://www.currentargus.com/ci_6595813

"By Anne Restine Self

On Aug. 11, 1961, Mattie Restine, 13, and Patty Pritz, 14, were murdered. It has been 46 years since they were abducted on their way home from the beach area in Carlsbad.

On Aug. 13, their bodies were found by two rabbit hunters out in the Rocky Arroyo area, some 12 miles northwest of town.

In 2003 the Eddy County Sheriff's Department re-opened this cold case, and they had some good leads come in, but the case has since gone cold again".

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ine-(13)-amp-Patty-Pritz-(14)-Carlsbad-1961-2

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I completely agree. I'm worried about how Smock and the hostile work environment he created has impacted this case. I hope valuable tips weren't lost or ignored.

I've been away from WebSleuths for about two years due to health problems and decided to take another peek.

I seem to recall that at some point, maybe about 18 months to 2 years ago, there was a report from an independent agency that was asked to evaluate the handling of the case by the Evansdale PD. The subsequent report compared the response of the EPD to the guidelines issued by the FBI for investigating child abductions and found that overall the way the case had been handled was well above standard.

Tangential thought: the methods by which law enforcement solves homicides in this country tracks closely with the statistics for who commits the homicides. The most common killer is someone that the victim lives with or knows well and the most frequently solved homicides are those where the killer was someone who lived with or knew the victim well. The least common form of homicide is stranger homicides, those where the killer has no known social ties to the victim, and the least often solved type of homicide are those where the killer is thought to be a stranger.

The general strategy of investigation, where LE starts with the victim's inner circle and only moves outwards when the inner circle is (more or less) ruled out heavily favours solving the most common type of homicide.

So, my point (altho' I"m not sure I have one) is that Lyric and Elizabeth were most likely abducted and murdered by a stranger to them or by someone who had only a very casual acquaintance with either them and/or their families.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Yes, the lawn watering guy and his wife seem to be very familiar with Elizabeth, but I'm not sure about Lyric. Did she ride with her a lot or did Elizabeth ride with another friend? The couple also mentioned seeing Elizabeth ride all the time at night and that she would stop and talk to people. Very friendly she said. I wonder if she was by herself then.

SBM

Keep in mind that Elizabeth was the youngest of four children. I've always thought that if that witness were accurate about seeing Elizabeth riding her bicycle in the evenings, she was probably with her siblings.

My impression of Drew and Heather Collins is that they would not have allowed their 8 year old daughter to ride her bicycle unaccompanied.

 

[dotr]

I've been away from WebSleuths for about two years due to health problems and decided to take another peek.

I seem to recall that at some point, maybe about 18 months to 2 years ago, there was a report from an independent agency that was asked to evaluate the handling of the case by the Evansdale PD. The subsequent report compared the response of the EPD to the guidelines issued by the FBI for investigating child abductions and found that overall the way the case had been handled was well above standard.

Tangential thought: the methods by which law enforcement solves homicides in this country tracks closely with the statistics for who commits the homicides. The most common killer is someone that the victim lives with or knows well and the most frequently solved homicides are those where the killer was someone who lived with or knew the victim well. The least common form of homicide is stranger homicides, those where the killer has no known social ties to the victim, and the least often solved type of homicide are those where the killer is thought to be a stranger.

The general strategy of investigation, where LE starts with the victim's inner circle and only moves outwards when the inner circle is (more or less) ruled out heavily favours solving the most common type of homicide.

So, my point (altho' I"m not sure I have one) is that Lyric and Elizabeth were most likely abducted and murdered by a stranger to them or by someone who had only a very casual acquaintance with either them and/or their families.

Welcome back Grainne Dhu!!!
You have really been missed here, hope you are feeling much better now!

 

[threecrazykids]

Welcome back!! So glad you are here again!

 

[iamnotagolem]

SBM

Keep in mind that Elizabeth was the youngest of four children. I've always thought that if that witness were accurate about seeing Elizabeth riding her bicycle in the evenings, she was probably with her siblings.

My impression of Drew and Heather Collins is that they would not have allowed their 8 year old daughter to ride her bicycle unaccompanied.

Elizabeth had one older brother and two younger sisters.

 

[carbuff]

Grainne Dhu! Good to see you! I had been wondering how you're doing.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Elizabeth had one older brother and two younger sisters.

Argh! You are quite correct. My memory is going fast.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Like most women of "a certain age" (i.e., older than dirt), I have worked in hostile work environments. I know how stressful it is, and how difficult it can be to question a superior or to offer suggestions. I have no idea how it works in a police department, but I wonder if Smock negatively impacted the investigation into Lyric and Lizzy's abduction/murders.

The knowledge that he maintains a Facebook friendship with Heather Collins seems questionable to me. I am not accusing Heather of anything, I am just using this as an example of Smock's lack of objectivity. JMO.

 

[dotr]

Maybe the extreme stress, pressure and horror of dealing with a (unsolved) double child abduction and their ultimate murder, pushed S into an untoward scenario.
Perhaps he worked the case hard and as well as he could , but was overwhelmed by the responsibility and the sadness of it all.
imo.

 

[Squeeze]

Like most women of "a certain age" (i.e., older than dirt), I have worked in hostile work environments. I know how stressful it is, and how difficult it can be to question a superior or to offer suggestions. I have no idea how it works in a police department, but I wonder if Smock negatively impacted the investigation into Lyric and Lizzy's abduction/murders.

The knowledge that he maintains a Facebook friendship with Heather Collins seems questionable to me. I am not accusing Heather of anything, I am just using this as an example of Smock's lack of objectivity. JMO.

Amen sister!! I, too, have worked in such an environment. In fact, I just changed jobs after 19 years because of it. I particularity was impressed with the letters written to the city council. That takes guts. So I'm sure the situation there was not good. So yes, hopefully the atmosphere has improved in the department.