IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

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I do have a question Did the government officials drive Johnny back to Washington or did they fly?

direct quote from Paul Bonacci's Diary
"I went in January of ‘84 on every trip. I was paid by men King knew for sex. The summer of ‘84 sometime I went to Dallas, Texas and had sex with several men King knew in a hotel. I flew on YNR airlines (by the way that’s a private airline or a private charter deal) and Cam airlines (another private charter deal) normally for Larry King. I never had much personally to do with King only went where he told me to go."

More than likely Johnny was flown on these same private charter companies used by Larry King.
 
direct quote from Paul Bonacci's Diary
"I went in January of ‘84 on every trip. I was paid by men King knew for sex. The summer of ‘84 sometime I went to Dallas, Texas and had sex with several men King knew in a hotel. I flew on YNR airlines (by the way that’s a private airline or a private charter deal) and Cam airlines (another private charter deal) normally for Larry King. I never had much personally to do with King only went where he told me to go."

More than likely Johnny was flown on these same private charter companies used by Larry King.
So the pedo ring flew Johnny (who is proof that this pedo ring Noreen speaks of exisits) on their private airline to see his mom in secret who is on to them and trying to expose him and their pedo ring? or did he make numerous trips? it doesn't make sense for secret sex slaves to be flown all over out in the open. In fact, none of it washes, period
 
I'm willing to believe that perhaps certain things about the Franklin Credit Union scandal could be true. Maybe. But they don't involve Johnny. It just dosn't make sense.

And because of Noreen's stauch conviction, other leads, if any, are not looked at. The narrow view is so frustrating. Is her DNA even in CODIS. If she belives he's alive and has visited her, then possibly not.
 
So the pedo ring flew Johnny (who is proof that this pedo ring Noreen speaks of exisits) on their private airline to see his mom in secret who is on to them and trying to expose him and their pedo ring? or did he make numerous trips? it doesn't make sense for secret sex slaves to be flown all over out in the open. In fact, none of it washes, period

sorry didnt mean to cause any confusion... again.but what do you mean "flew Johnny to see his mom" Noreen has stated that when Johnny came to visit her in 1997 he and another person drove and parked their car blocks away from her apartment and walked.
I thought Teresa was asking if the pedophile group in Nebraska used planes trains or automobiles to transport kids to Washington when she asked
"I do have a question Did the government officials drive Johnny back to Washington or did they fly"
You are right it is risky to fly these kids out in the open thats probably why they used private planes. Paul has stated that ocassionally when they flew him over seas they would use commercial airlines and he and any other kids with him would pose as their children.Remember this was back in the 70s and 80s airport security wasnt as ridiculous as it is after 9/11
 
sorry didnt mean to cause any confusion... again.but what do you mean "flew Johnny to see his mom" Noreen has stated that when Johnny came to visit her in 1997 he and another person drove and parked their car blocks away from her apartment and walked.
I thought Teresa was asking if the pedophile group in Nebraska used planes trains or automobiles to transport kids to Washington when she asked
"I do have a question Did the government officials drive Johnny back to Washington or did they fly"
You are right it is risky to fly these kids out in the open thats probably why they used private planes. Paul has stated that ocassionally when they flew him over seas they would use commercial airlines and he and any other kids with him would pose as their children.Remember this was back in the 70s and 80s airport security wasnt as ridiculous as it is after 9/11
I guess I am more clear. It just all makes no sense, sorry.
 
Although I don't think Johnny was involved in any government-conspiracy sex-ring operation, I don't find it beyond the realm of possibility that pedophiles who are organized would fly children, privately or commercially, to other areas of the world. Why is this such an issue? Why does it make people so upset? Last year we saw a guy who had adopted a child from Russia and made her his sex slave until he was caught (she was age 13 -- he took sex pics of her while they were at Disney World). We found out that a man who abducted a child kept her hidden in a room beneath his house until she escaped as an adult and he committed suicide. Terrible things happen in this world that involve children. Pedophile creeps who exchange children for sex purposes and use airlines to do so does not seem impossible to me.

But it really doesn't address the issue of "What happened to Johnny," so why are we even discussing it?
 
If anyone is interested
Here is a new interview with John Decamp from September 2007 most people havent seen before where he talks about the Johnny Gosch case . He is strangely tight lipped when asked about Johnnys father.The interview is in 5 parts where he talks about some of his other famous cases Columbine Students, Oklahoma City Bombing, his Vietnam experiences with Kissinger, Colby etc. The interview is in 5 parts he mentions the Franklin credit union/Gosch case in parts 1 and 3
Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpZTVKuVAo&feature=related
Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlLKLeOwKl0
Part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtUWdRtSn-M&feature=related
Part4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLZPo_UOuU&feature=related
Part5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f70eoCEKCHo&feature=related
 
I think the map is great and I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. I really think these cases could be connected and these boys met their demise at the hands of a serial pedo/killer.
 
I've been lurking here a while, and this is my first posting, but I have kept pretty close track over the Gosch case since I first heard about it in December of '82. While I necessarily have a problem with CIA involvement or even involvement at the Executive Branch level, some things trouble me.
In particular, there seems to be some rather compelling evidence that definitely suggests that JG was not killed shortly after his abduction. I refer specifically to the 1983 incident where a woman in Oklahoma claims that a boy specifically identifying himself by name as "John David Gosch" came up to her and asked for help before he was dragged away. Then there's the incident in 1985 in which a dollar bill with JG's supposed handwriting on it was found. Three separate experts claimed that the handwriting was definitely that of JG. Then there's the incident in which someone found that he had purportedly written on a bathroom wall that "Johnny Gosch was here" in nail polish. I think I saw an interview years ago in which Paul Bonacci's story concerning what happened to JG was confirmed by a letter from another guy who claimed to have been there when the message was written. When you add these to the accounts of Gibson, and when you take into account that there have been some pretty weirdish coincidences over the years where this case is concerned, you come to the conclusion (well, I do anyhow) that it would have been better for JG had he been killed within hours after disappearing if he could not be found and have a decent life. I could go on all day, but maybe I'll just see whether or not these remarks press any buttons before I do.
 
I've been lurking here a while, and this is my first posting, but I have kept pretty close track over the Gosch case since I first heard about it in December of '82. While I necessarily have a problem with CIA involvement or even involvement at the Executive Branch level, some things trouble me.
In particular, there seems to be some rather compelling evidence that definitely suggests that JG was not killed shortly after his abduction. I refer specifically to the 1983 incident where a woman in Oklahoma claims that a boy specifically identifying himself by name as "John David Gosch" came up to her and asked for help before he was dragged away. Then there's the incident in 1985 in which a dollar bill with JG's supposed handwriting on it was found. Three separate experts claimed that the handwriting was definitely that of JG. Then there's the incident in which someone found that he had purportedly written on a bathroom wall that "Johnny Gosch was here" in nail polish. I think I saw an interview years ago in which Paul Bonacci's story concerning what happened to JG was confirmed by a letter from another guy who claimed to have been there when the message was written. When you add these to the accounts of Gibson, and when you take into account that there have been some pretty weirdish coincidences over the years where this case is concerned, you come to the conclusion (well, I do anyhow) that it would have been better for JG had he been killed within hours after disappearing if he could not be found and have a decent life. I could go on all day, but maybe I'll just see whether or not these remarks press any buttons before I do.

You are exactly right there are also other witnesses who have seen Johnny alive well after when he was kidnapped.The Federal government is of course involved legislative and executive branches. its common knowledge among Washington insiders about homosexual pedophiles in the republican and democratic parties. Other books besides The Franklin Cover up have been written about it.
 
Also, I don’t, as others have, completely discount Paul Bonacci’s claims. I didn’t see the original AMW show with JG’s profile on it in November of 1992, but I did see the one in May of ’93. Made a special point in doing so, actually. My objective observation is that if PB was in fact lying, then he knew an awful lot about that house in Colorado, and his reactions seemed a little bit too real to be totally discredited. And Jimmy Gibson, the guy who was interviewed and on that same show, seemed to know a little too much about JG, at least if you take what NG knew of her son before, so I can’t discount his claims either.
I’m also not sure that NG is off her nutter, as some people have accused her of being. Every time I’ve ever seen/heard her in an interview, she does not rave or rant, and she seems calm and relatively stable. All her claims have been reasonably consistent and unvarying for me to say that she’s unbalanced. I therefore cannot say with absolute certitude that JG never visited her in ’97 as she claims. Unless JG and/or the friend who was with him on that night is posting here anonymously and in disguise, I don’t believe any of us on this thread ever saw the visit happen (or not) to reach such an absolute conclusion. I know I wasn’t.
Looking at the record as a whole, therefore, leaves me with some tentative conclusions. For one, I’m not bothered by the fact that there were no witnesses to the visit. I live in a condo/apartment building with nineteen floors, and I daresay the most of us just mind our own business except, that is, for some people who don’t seem to have a life of their own, but that’s another matter altogether. So if JG came to her new home in the middle of the night, my respectful submission is that he probably planned it for weeks so that there would be no visits, especially given what allegedly happened to him.
I’m also not bothered by the fact that she waited to reveal this purported visit until she was in open court. My guess is that she was probably deposed beforehand, and that if her testimony at the hearing/trial was inconsistent with that deposition, she’d be charged with perjury. Why bother with that? And her behavior in open court is entirely consistent with instructions supposedly given by her son not to reveal the visit unless she had to. Avoiding a perjury charge to me is sufficient compulsion.
Finally, I note that in a Des Moines Register article of February of ’99, Gosch Sr. claimed not to believe his former wife’s account of their son’s ’97 visit. He claimed that had JG in fact returned to Des Moines, he would have gone to his childhood home. I say not necessarily. Remember that NG was on the Lisa Gibbons show in Dec. of ‘96 — a show I did not see — and gave her new address publicly. She also let JG know, should he be watching, that she was still looking for him. I submit that either he or someone close to him saw the show, and maybe that’s how he was able to get to NG’s new home. Furthermore, if Gosch Sr. had a hand in his son’s disappearance and horrid life thereafter, I wonder that JG might have come upon this information in the years in which he was a captive of this alleged pedo ring. If your father did that to you and you came to know of this, would you want ever to see him again? Just a suggestion, and an open question that you can answer however you want.
I have to be fair, I suppose. In a former life before I moved to the Twin Cities, I used to be an appellate court attorney, and we used to have to review briefs and records from lower courts and make recommendations for the panels of judges sitting on the appeal. You have to know that an appeal can turn on a dime; that is, a single page in the record, a single fact, can shake the plaintiff’s or defendant’s case. You can also find a factum that you think may do the same, but it turns out to be a red herring.
I’m probably going to go all over the map on this one because I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. But I’m going to try to be fair to JG’s father in this posting. Namely, if I believe he’s the scum of the earth and had a hand in the ruination of his son’s life, (or possibly worse), I cannot simply point the finger of suspicion upon him just because he wasn’t with his son for the first time ever when JG was delivering his papers. The stepbrother of EM (Eugene Martin) was also not with him the first time ever, and EM got taken the same way as JG, to my understanding. In the Wetterling case, no parental figures were with the boys when JW was snatched. Years ago, Etan Patz of New York City, one of my old home towns, was taken while walking alone for the first time to his schoolbus stop. Kevin Collins of California was waiting for a bus — alone. Ilene Misheloff was coming home, I believe, from ice-skating or something, and again had no parental figures with her.
Again, I could go on all day and all night here. But my point is that while it may be that you have to look at a parent or guardian in the first instance with suspicion every time a child goes missing, when there’s evidence suggesting the parent’s non-involvement, at least up till a certain point, I don’t think you can safely say that a parent is always involved just because he or she wasn’t there when the kid got nabbed. You’ve got a lot of heartbroken people out there looking for their sons and daughters, and the last thing you want is overkill where suspicion on a parent or other figure is concerned.


“We all have choices, and that’s the cold hard truth.”—George Jones
 
dorca the just, it isn't the fact that Johnny's father was not with him when he was abducted that makes me suspicious of John Sr. It is John Sr.'s suspicious attitude that makes me think he had something to do with it. The weird phone calls, the trip to the air force base, his bizarre behavior (as described in Noreen's book). The oddest thing is the stand-in Noreen, the woman he took with him and introduced as his wife, Noreen Gosch. And the fact that he kept information from Noreen for years.

I just can't put John Sr. off my list of number one suspects.

You make a lot of good points about the sightings of Johnny -- the woman who saw him beg her for help, the dollar bill, the phone call to Noreen, the bathroom wall message.

I still think Johnny was taken by someone he knew, but I can't 100% discount Paul Bonacci's account. I, too, saw that AMW show, and he did know a lot about that Colorado ranch. And didn't he, or maybe Jimmy, have JG tattooed or scarred onto his leg? That's pretty far to go for a hoax.

I still can't buy the government conspiracy angle, though, although I've researched the whole Franklin Files thing, Conspiracy of Silence, the whole shebang. I'm not willing to dismiss a pedo ring, though. Clearly those do exist. We see them being busted in the news all the time now.

Some of it I can wrap my mind around, like pedo rings that snatch kids, fly them around, trade/sell them, etc. Some of it seems too farfetched, like the president and vice president and other high-ups involved with child sex parties.

If Johnny is still alive, which I just don't think is possible after all these years, then he should come forward and set the record straight. He's 40 years old now...what does he have to lose? Yes, he may have been (or he may still be) involved in all sorts of nefarious doings because of the way he was brought up, but Paul Bonacci came forward, and at least he's still alive.

Sadly, a big part of me is hoping those Mount Ayr remains are Johnny's, simply because it would be nice to put this tangled mystery to bed.
 
Mr. E, is there any new word on the Mount Ayr remains? Please keep us apprised if you hear anything. Sadly, a big part of me is also hoping the remains are Johnny so that Noreen and others can maybe find peace.
 
Does anyone know what the $20 bills are suppose to mean on Noreen's site? They were just put up today.

for whats its worth
Sorry this was asked weeks ago i noticed it recently but I will answer it if anyone is interested if not then dont worry about it
 
Rbeck:

I would definitely be interested in what the $20 bill was about. I have my theories, but would like to hear the scoop.
 
for whats its worth
Sorry this was asked weeks ago i noticed it recently but I will answer it if anyone is interested if not then dont worry about it

Yes please, I would like to know.
 
Mr. E., you raise some valid points yourself. Hence, one thing I think I should clarify is that I have my doubts about Gosch Sr.’s lack of culpability, meaning that I’m not convinced that he didn’t have anything to do with his son’s disappearance. I merely thought it prudent to stress that if, and only if, we accept Gosch Sr.’s guilt is based on the fact that he was not with JG that morning, it’s a pretty weak nail to hang one’s hat on. I agree with you, however, that given all I’ve heard of his suspicious behavior, he needs to be looked at with a somewhat more jaundiced eye.
I will say, though, that the allegations where he was concerned are a little surprising when one considers that in the early days, he seemed just as hell-bent to get his son back as did NG. I point to a segment on a show called “Hour Magazine” which focused exclusively on missing kids. I know they showed it twice — once in about the spring of ’84, and the other in the winter of ’85. I remember this because both times I was on break from college, and that was when the Gosch case was at its most troubling for me. I know both he and NG were on that show being interviewed by Gary Collins. They looked pretty together back then, but then what do I know?
I do also hope that the recent remains found might be that of JG, if only to lend some peace to those who loved him best. As for why he hasn’t come forward if he were still alive, I submit that there may be reasons. One of these is that if the stories about Craig Spence, Gary Caradori and Hunter Thompson et al are credible, I’m afraid I have to rest my case by saying that it’s pretty obvious to me that if the people who nabbed JG are as powerful as all that, we can safely say that there is a risk that either he or those he loves best might die.
Another reason is that in many respects this is still a pretty homophobic society, and we are in many ways bound by arguably outdated ideas about gender. You’ve got a kid that was abducted, on the verge of puberty, raped by other men or boys, and not just for days. This happened over the course of years to my understanding. Look at the Hornbeck case. Lots of people blame the victim. I wouldn’t blame JG for heading for the hills if that’s what happened. New name, new face, new soc. Sec. no., new life. Not saying it did happen, but it could have been that he now has a new, halfway decent life and doesn’t want to revisit the past.
But now here’s something else. I’ve been thinking about the whole Jeff Gannon thing. He never did take that DNA test. He’s already been found out to have used at least one other name than Jeff Gannon. I can’t say one way or another if he looks like JG, but if I were in his place and I were not JG, I’d just go ahead and take the damned test to show the world I’m (a) a halfway decent guy, and (b) I’ve got nothing to hide. His failure/refusal to take the DNA test does suggest to me that he has something pretty major to hide. Maybe he really isn’t JG. I’m willing to place even money on that proposition. But he doesn’t ease the speculation by being obstreperous. But again, just thinking aloud.

“I can bear all I have to bear.”—Grover Cleveland
 
I would also like to know about the $20 bill.

I too hope that is the remains found are JG's. Like others, just to give Noreen some peace.
 
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