IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

[dorca the just]

But, again, I find the "evidence" you cite to be, to say the least, unconvincing. Much of it is hearsay, and the items that include physical components --- the note, for example --- could be elaborate pranks pulled by sickos who get their jollies inflicting further anxiety on Johnny's mother and family.” Maybe. This is why I find some of the more ethereal evidence — the sightings, and a series of three phone calls from February of 1984 — less compelling. The latter, especially, could have been faked. I’m willing to grant you that even the dollar bill could be faked, and I believe that I stated specifically that if there would be forensics experts who might have a different interpretation on whether the handwriting on it was JG’s, I’d be a little less troubled by it, or at least I’d definitely wonder if whether this note was yet another fraud. I’m just saying I’ve never seen JG’s handwriting, and I’ve never seen the note. And I wasn’t there in ’83 when the woman did or did not see JG.
"I’ve seen/heard and accounts of what happened to JG shortly after his abduction,
he was sold to a guy who took him to Colorado. Maybe he was passed around, because
there were again various alleged sightings of JG throughout the country. But the
guy who took him to Colorado was this Aquino character who supposedly was a high
muckety-muck in the military, so obviously he must have had some peripheral connection
to the government. Some have said he was high enough to have had some dealings with
the White House..."
“Eyes glazing over, big time.”
In my defense, I was recounting for Interesting Woman the Colorado angle, and trying to parse what I actually believed from what I heard. Have trouble buying the government angle myself, but there are aspects of it, when I do take a look at the case as a whole, that trouble me, and I believe I’ve adequately set them forth.

 

[Mr. E]

About the pictures:

I don't know that I'd be able to spot professional bondage as opposed to amateur pictures, but there are some things about the pictures that really raise a red flag for me.

1. In at least one picture, the boy's hands are tied behind his back so tightly that they are turning purple.

2. In at least one picture, the boy really appears out of it, with his mouth slack and his eyes either closed or glazed-looking.

3. It seems odd to me that the boy is dressed in all the pictures. I suspect there are other pictures out there where that is not the case. I wonder if it's a deal like, here he is fully clothed; here he is in pjs/sweats; here he is ____ (and we don't see those pics).

4. In at least one picture the gag is so tight that you can see it cut across his face, pulling his skin back -- it looks very uncomfortable. If I was playing some game (and we used to play some weird but innocent games when I was a kid), I would loudly object to being hurt in any way.

InterestedWoman, what an odd coincidence with your missing man whose car showed up in Colorado. I, too, wonder if there is a connection. There seems to be a lot of missing young men from Iowa, or maybe I'm just hyper-aware of it because of the Gosch case.

 

[Taylor]

Mr. E, for what it's worth, I would estimate that the boy, or boys, who appear in the staged bondage photos were tied up only for, at most, a few minutes while the photos were being shot. If, in fact, these boys were bondage models --- willing or unwilling --- it would have been in the interests of the pimps or perps who controlled the photo shoots to subject the boys to as little actual physical harm as possible, thus extending their long-term value as photogenic models.

Trust me on this --- after about fifteen minutes in those poses, the physical characteristics of the boys would change dramatically from what is seen in the existing pictures. Long-term bondage is physically very demanding on the human body, and quite dangerous. First and foremost, their clothes would become visibly soaked with sweat, and perspiration would be seen beading on their foreheads and dripping down their cheeks; the gags would be wet and sagging with saliva discharge; their skin color would be beet-red, especially in the face; the joints around the bindings would be clearly chafed and swollen; and, finally, most of these kids would be in a visible, uncontrolled state of panic or distress with tears streaming down their faces and urine patches showing through their pants or undergarments. These are the ugly characteristics of real bondage where actual restraint, not sexual arousal, is the primary goal. And --- this is a crucial point --- the more involuntary the poses, the more dramatic the tell-tale signs would become.

I agree with you that one or more of the pics could be interpreted to show signs of sedation or inebriation on the part of the subjects. It is well-documented that the use of drugs and alcohol is commonplace in settings where models --- of any age --- pose for pornographic photography.

I am convinced these images were staged and posed with at least the grudging cooperation of the boy or boys depicted in them. What purpose these pictures served, I cannot say with certainty, though it's my guess they probably originated as part of some pedophile's private collection of amateur child bondage photography. While I would argue that these pictures do not contain violence on the level of genuine brutality, they are certainly disturbing to the extent that they might be used by pedo-pervs as material for masturbation or other forms of sexual gratification.

Thank god, these pictures demonstrate almost no visible signs of violent assault or battery. As bad as the images are, they could have been much worse had the boys clearly been beaten and bloodied.

In my view, the most disturbing of those images is one that seems to depict one of the boys wearing a diaper beneath his undergarment. It is quite possible the diaper was placed on the child to appeal to pervs who are aroused by scatology or incontinence. Or, in a more sinister spin, it might be an indication that the boy was being kept in close confinement without bathroom privileges --- perhaps as punishment for attempting to run away. While I discourage rampant speculation based on such scanty clues, this and the other images will understandably raise questions in the minds of decent people who care about the safety and well-being of the children in the community.

 

[rbeck]

Rbeck:

I would definitely be interested in what the $20 bill was about. I have my theories, but would like to hear the scoop.

Dr Doogie from what ive heard from Noreen she along with Senator Decamp is the central contact for some of the kids that were involved in the pedophile group.these kids leave certain hidden messages at certain areas in public places and by each others familys homes when they are in town or need to meet somewhere or communicate. One of the specific things they do that Noreen mentioned was leaving cigarettes lying around in a certain pattern near a door step or in a mailbox etc.Remember from the Watergate scandal and the movie All the Presidents Men when the deepthroat informant needed to have a meeting with reporters Woodward and Bernstein he would leave a potted plant out on a balcony so they would see it. it is very similar to that. Noreen also stated that now they communicate by email and chat rooms or instant messages like yahoo msn etc The 20 dollar bill is a coded message used to talk to some of them. The serial numbers on the bill are used to identify a msn chat room name or another free internet chat service and date and time to log into the chat room. thats why it was on the website then taken down quicky .Ive been checking her website for any other messages a common way to post a hidden message is to have the webmaster type something at the bottom of the page or in the margins in the same color text as the background such as black and by selecting "edit, select all" in internet explorer it will highlight the black text so it can be readable.I tried to download your attachment of the picture of the 20 dollar bill but it says i dont have permissions you can send it to me by email if you want to I dont mind.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Dr Doogie from what ive heard from Noreen she along with Senator Decamp is the central contact for some of the kids that were involved in the pedophile group.these kids leave certain hidden messages at certain areas in public places and by each others familys homes when they are in town or need to meet somewhere or communicate. One of the specific things they do that Noreen mentioned was leaving cigarettes lying around in a certain pattern near a door step or in a mailbox etc.Remember from the Watergate scandal and the movie All the Presidents Men when the deepthroat informant needed to have a meeting with reporters Woodward and Bernstein he would leave a potted plant out on a balcony so they would see it. it is very similar to that. Noreen also stated that now they communicate by email and chat rooms or instant messages like yahoo msn etc The 20 dollar bill is a coded message used to talk to some of them. The serial numbers on the bill are used to identify a msn chat room name or another free internet chat service and date and time to log into the chat room. thats why it was on the website then taken down quicky .Ive been checking her website for any other messages a common way to post a hidden message is to have the webmaster type something at the bottom of the page or in the margins in the same color text as the background such as black and by selecting "edit, select all" in internet explorer it will highlight the black text so it can be readable.I tried to download your attachment of the picture of the 20 dollar bill but it says i dont have permissions you can send it to me by email if you want to I dont mind.

How do these kids have access to a computer and where does the pedophile ring keep all of these kidnapped boys? If JG is still alive he would have contacted his mother by now and he'd be telling everybody all about what happened to him. Where do they get the cigarettes to lay in a pattern? If that's the case maybe they should try sending smoke signals too LOL I must say you have quite the imagination.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

How do these kids have access to a computer and where does the pedophile ring keep all of these kidnapped boys? If JG is still alive he would have contacted his mother by now and he'd be telling everybody all about what happened to him. Where do they get the cigarettes to lay in a pattern? If that's the case maybe they should try sending smoke signals too LOL I must say you have quite the imagination.

Doogie as well as several others asked her/him to explain what the $20 Bill on Noreen's site meant. Could you please reconsider your tone and maintain respect for your fellow humans. Thank you and have a great day.

 

[rbeck]

How do these kids have access to a computer and where does the pedophile ring keep all of these kidnapped boys? If JG is still alive he would have contacted his mother by now and he'd be telling everybody all about what happened to him. Where do they get the cigarettes to lay in a pattern? If that's the case maybe they should try sending smoke signals too LOL I must say you have quite the imagination.

most of these kids are now older in their 20 and 30s i just used the term "kids" sorry. the pedophile ring was broken up in the late 80s when larry king was arrested so they are free to do what they want but they keep a low profile. he did contact his mother in 1997 and tell her what happened to him.its not my imagination im just repeating what Noreen has said in an interview in 2005

 

[dorca the just]

“If JG is still alive he would have contacted his mother by now and he'd be telling everybody all about what happened to him.” “Would have”? More like “might have”. Most typical rapes go unreported, and most typical rape situations in which the victim is a male raped by another male don’t get reported either. If NG is even partially correct about what happened to her son, then this is far from even your typical male rape scenario. It means he was abused by a man or men for several years. Maybe he didn’t come forward because he was brainwashed into thinking that he’d never be accepted back into normal society. People might blame him for not trying to get away. People might say he enjoyed what was happening to him on some level. People might call him names like “*advertiser censored*,” “*advertiser censored*,” whatever. Again, this kid was twelve years old, probably already in the grips of puberty, and he gets raped by a guy or guys, and in a very traumatic manner. One minute he’s about to go on his merry way delivering papers just as he always did, and the next his whole life is ruined.
I didn’t want to use the slurs I placed in quotes; I find them personally very offensive and wrong. But unfortunately this very well may be what does happen. Odds are reasonably strong that JG is not alive, but if he is, I still don’t blame him for wanting to be in seclusion. Just thinking aloud again.

 

[Teresa Larson]

iNTERESTEDWOMAN Doogie as well as several others asked her/him to explain what the $20 Bill on Noreen's site meant. Could you please reconsider your tone and maintain respect for your fellow humans. Thank you and have a great day.[/quote

I wasn't disrespectful to anybody I didn't have a tone about anything either!!! I wasn't replying to the $20 bill story at all nor was I replying to anything you stated.

 

[rbeck]

“ Maybe he didn’t come forward because he was brainwashed into thinking that he’d never be accepted back into normal society. People might blame him for not trying to get away. People might say he enjoyed what was happening to him on some level.

some of these kids have also told Noreen that they were forced to commit a felony and are video taped doing it they are threatend with arrest if they came forward with claims of sexual abuse so they really cant just escape and be accepted back into society.
Dorca, you mentioned Lt Col. Michael Aquino earlier I have some information on him if you are interested

 

[Pandora]

This may be related or it may not.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-coldcase_webdec19,1,5006248.story

Gary, IN is only 5 hours from Des Moines via Interstate 80.
I have a hard time believing that this guy killed only once, in 1979, when he was 16.

 

[Mr. E]

Taylor, I'm glad the photos aren't as you described. I don't think I would want images like that in my head. Thankfully, I'm not familiar with the diaper photo you mentioned. It sounds horrific.

I wanted to comment on this:

I am convinced these images were staged and posed with at least the grudging cooperation of the boy or boys depicted in them. What purpose these pictures served, I cannot say with certainty, though it's my guess they probably originated as part of some pedophile's private collection of amateur child bondage photography. While I would argue that these pictures do not contain violence on the level of genuine brutality, they are certainly disturbing to the extent that they might be used by pedo-pervs as material for masturbation or other forms of sexual gratification.

This is something I've suspected, as well. Even if the boy is Johnny, it's entirely possible that he was under the control of a pervert, possibly/probably someone he knew, for some time -- a person who took many pictures of Johnny (or whoever the boy in the pictures is) for his own sick entertainment. Whoever the kid is, I think some of the pictures look like a younger version of the same boy.

 

[2sisters]

This may be related or it may not.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-coldcase_webdec19,1,5006248.story

Gary, IN is only 5 hours from Des Moines via Interstate 80.
I have a hard time believing that this guy killed only once, in 1979, when he was 16.

I think it is a valid point and he should def be looked at, i am curious what everyone else thinks about it too.

 

[rbeck]

I think it is a valid point and he should def be looked at, i am curious what everyone else thinks about it too.

Its not related to the Johnny Gosch case its a seperate crime

 

[MagicRose99]

I think it is a valid point and he should def be looked at, i am curious what everyone else thinks about it too.

I think anything is worth looking into... especially if it may bring answers, not only to Johnny's case, but to someone else's.

 

[2sisters]

Its not related to the Johnny Gosch case its a seperate crime

Um, yeah I know but it could be related. I think all avenues should be explored, not just this pedo ring which is apparently the only angle you want to look at concerning him. It is worth a look, the area is close, the guy is obviously a opportunistic abductor and murderer.

 

[rbeck]

Also, I don’t, as others have, completely discount Paul Bonacci’s claims. I didn’t see the original AMW show with JG’s profile on it in November of 1992, but I did see the one in May of ’93. Made a special point in doing so, actually. My objective observation is that if PB was in fact lying, then he knew an awful lot about that house in Colorado, and his reactions seemed a little bit too real to be totally discredited. And Jimmy Gibson, the guy who was interviewed and on that same show, seemed to know a little too much about JG, at least if you take what NG knew of her son before, so I can’t discount his claims either.

Paul Bonacci knows an awful lot about other things too. and I dont think hes lying .I recommend you watch his 6 hour inteview with FBI agent Ted Gunderson which can be obtained from Teds website. this interview was made in Feb 1993 Paul goes down a list of all of the men who abused him since he was brought into this pedo ring when he was 8 years old, where it happened, how often,how he travled ,who went with him.some of his abusers are congressmen,candidates for state governor, he names names dates, he even gave a guys home phone number on the video and it checks out because I called it ! He talks about his involvement with NAMBLA and its founder David Thorsted. He mentions other not as famous child abductions and abuse in Minnesota, Connecticut,California that he was involved in besides the johnny gosch kidnapping. He talks about who was setup for the crimes and convicted while the real perps got off. I checked out everything he said through the database of court records and the stuff checks out 100%.He also goes into detail of how he smuggled kiddie *advertiser censored* and drugs from the netherlands for NAMBLA how they obtained their fake passports.How he procured other teenage prostitutes for Larry King from santa monica blvd in beverly hills at his sex partys at the beverly wilshire hotel The guy has an incredible memory it maybe from his mulitle personality disorder.I dont think he is lying either. I looked up most of his abusers and most of them have been arrested sometime later in the 80s and 90s for prostituion and some kind of sex scandal

 

[loganone]

What really would be nice to see in this case is a list of facts that we know and links to verify the fact.

I can half way believe a pedo ring in this case. What I have a hard time buying is a government coverup, although I will not rule it out. One reason I think no government coverup - I think the government would of been smart enough to "plant" a body so someone would find it, then switch tests to prove the body found was JG, I mean, come on, we are talking about the government, they don't cover things up, they make the facts fit what they want us to believe.

With all fairness though, I am still on the fence on this case, and I think its time to take a fresh look at the case from the begining, starting with the verifiable facts, which, call me crazy, the only verifiable fact I know is a little boy dissapeared off the streets in 1982.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Paul Bonacci knows an awful lot about other things too. and I dont think hes lying .I recommend you watch his 6 hour inteview with FBI agent Ted Gunderson which can be obtained from Teds website. this interview was made in Feb 1993 Paul goes down a list of all of the men who abused him since he was brought into this pedo ring when he was 8 years old, where it happened, how often,how he travled ,who went with him.some of his abusers are congressmen,candidates for state governor, he names names dates, he even gave a guys home phone number on the video and it checks out because I called it ! He talks about his involvement with NAMBLA and its founder David Thorsted. He mentions other not as famous child abductions and abuse in Minnesota, Connecticut,California that he was involved in besides the johnny gosch kidnapping. He talks about who was setup for the crimes and convicted while the real perps got off. I checked out everything he said through the database of court records and the stuff checks out 100%.He also goes into detail of how he smuggled kiddie *advertiser censored* and drugs from the netherlands for NAMBLA how they obtained their fake passports.How he procured other teenage prostitutes for Larry King from santa monica blvd in beverly hills at his sex partys at the beverly wilshire hotel The guy has an incredible memory it maybe from his mulitle personality disorder.I dont think he is lying either. I looked up most of his abusers and most of them have been arrested sometime later in the 80s and 90s for prostituion and some kind of sex scandal

If some one has multiple personalities /dissociative disorder they acquired it before the age of 5 or 6. In no way do you have a good memory because of it If anything you don't remember things very well because your mind blocks it all out to protect itself. I would have to discredit him IF he actually has this disorder. I have done extensive research on this for years. Has he ever actually proven anything he has ever stated? JG is old enough now if he was still alive he'd make contact with his mother. We can all go back and forth about our therories...whether the government was involved or not or if Noreen is a nut case (which I know first hand that she is wacky) however it's not doing any good in figuring out what happened to a little boy that disappeared years ago. The people in Des Moines where JG lived needed to be check out throughly first but Noreen wouldn't allow a few good prospects to be interrogated by the people working the case.

 

[dorca the just]

Thanks, rbeck, for your offer of the Aquino info. Got enough for now, and anyway sometimes this case gives me the hinkies. I’ll also try to check out the other leads that are unconnected with the Franklin thing, including the possibility of a serial killer. Best to keep an open mind on all possibilities in my opinion. Not being sufficiently careful in looking at the entire record can get one fired as an attorney. Even if I fired myself years ago, it’s still something I can’t escape from.
To that end, I’m in complete accord with loganone. The only realpiece of info we can verify is that on September 5, 1982, JG was present and with the known world. Literally one second later he didn’t exist anymore except for the person/persons who changed his life forever. Otherwise, we don’t know the names of any of the people who may (or may not have) seen him alive at some point in time after his disappearance except for those who claimed to have been with him after his abduction. Unless I’m mistaken, we don’t know the names of the forensics experts who saw the bill with the note on it in 1985, so we can’t ask them directly how they came to the conclusions they reached. I don’t think anyone outside the immediate orbit of the investigation has ever seen the 1988 letter purportedly from Gosch to his parents. Jeff Gannnon (another JG) hasn’t taken the DNA test to prove he isn’t the real JG. We don’t have the 1984 tape recording NG purportedly made of the warning of another impending disappearance. Only JG’s family knows for sure who the friends were who looked at the bathroom wall in Colorado with the message on it. AT&T refused to trace the phone calls allegedly made by JG to his home in Feb. of ’84 because they claimed they’d have to do that in all missing person cases, and they simply didn’t want that to be a precedent. I’d imagine those records are no longer extant by now, so there’s another possibly hot lead that went right up the floo.
I propose several things, though the list is hardly exhaustive. Some have suggested that there was some dysfunction in the Gosch family itself. Not an impossibility. I’ve not read NG’s book, but it appears from other postings that there is evidence of such dysfunction even in that. I’m not sure I have the moxy to actually do this, but one of the things to try is getting in touch with JG’s sibs. I’m not sure how to do this; I don’t know if they’re named in the book. I also don’t want to open up wounds or step on toes, so I surmise this has to be done extremely cautiously. And as much as this might make others uncomfortable, including me, we might want to seriously try contacting Gosch Sr. just to get his take on everything. I surmise I know what it might be, but at least any information he supplies, or the Gosch sibs can supply, could be checked out.
Ms. Larson, you brought up what I believe is a good point for purposes of this investigation, to whatever extent we on this forum can have a hand in solving the case. I’d be interested in knowing which sources NG did not want investigated. Ascertaining who they are and possibly making inquiries of and about them might lead to something tangible. If NG doesn’t want them investigated, might there be a way to conduct an investigation absent any real or imagined authority on her part?
So, too, does anyone think Jimmy Gibson might permit an independent examination of his diary? Anything that can be considered solid allegation could be proven or disproven through investigation of those allegations. For purposes of finding out what happened, I’d be willing to accept any allegations in that diary as true until proven otherwise.
In the course of listening to interviews with nG, I note that she references the fact that Jimmy Gibson’s father, whom she specifically identifies, once purportedly saw JG among a group of young men who were hiding out in the basement of the Gibson home. I wonder if it would be intrusive to try to contact him, interview him and get his thoughts/feelings about what he might have seen or heard from that time. Does he still have contact with his son, by the way? Where is Gibson now? And are there any alleged abusers of JG and the other boys and girls with the conscience to come forth and identify themselves so to put this case to bed for good and all? One might start with them if any exist.
Maybe all these angles are obvious, and maybe some or all have been tried before, but I’m rather new to this game. I’d just like to see this case solved and the perps brought to justice if at all possible. I don’t expect any of these next words to register or be read by the necessary party or parties, but I’d urge anyone with direct knowledge of what happened to JG to come forth with anything they have so that some people can have peace of mind. It’s one thing to have a loved one murdered; I’ve never had that happen to me, and so can only imagine the devastation. It’s quite another to have a loved one disappear and not know the whys and wherefores. I think this would drive me looney after a while, or make me a very bitter person indeed.