ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

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Maybe the “thud” was heard by DM, if she was falling asleep-4 stages of sleep, she may have unconsciously heard it to wake her then maybe heard something to go look and saw black clad guy walk by.



Jmo
 
I agree with this! The only other possibility is that something was happening outside while he was inside. IMO
Right! And it would have had to be something else related somehow to the crime while he was inside, or otherwise connecting this camera audio capture's timing of 4:17 to the crime.

My best guess is the voices/whimpering "followed by" a loud thud was the unfortunate happenings in X's room, and the very last moments before the killer walked out of that house and left. It's horrible.
 
When did BK move to Pullman? His professor at DeSales said he took online classes and she never met him. He could have been living there for over a year.


"Bolger, 33, who has been an Associate Professor at DeSales for the past eight years, said she taught Kohberger, 28, last year in an online class and helped him with his master's thesis project.

'He was an online student in the criminal justice master's degree program and graduated in June 2022,' said Bolger.

'I never saw him in person, I couldn't tell you how tall he was or how much he weighed, my only interaction with him was via email and Zoom,' Bolger told DailyMail.com. 'I didn't know anything about him, whether he was married, had a girlfriend, etc.'
There are videos available on YouTube of BK walking in DeSales graduation ceremony. I'm not sure what the sources are and if they're approved but it is Googleable. IMO, if he was living in WA taking online classes, he would not travel back just to walk the ceremony. But that is just my speculation. I do think it's kind of weird that he had a hair appointment in WA in early July. MOO

Edit here is a link from the daily mail. Interestingly it says it was May 21. But according to another poster here, BK mother posted online that he moved to WA in June
 
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There have been a lot of good suggestions for this loud thud. Imo, if LE did not equate the thud to the crime, I do not think it would have been included in the arrest PCA. The paragraph about this thud was placed right in the middle of DM's account of hearing crying and talking in X's room, and then her seeing the man in black walking towards the exit. I feel like that paragraph placement was not haphazard. If LE thought the thud was the sliding door, or the killer slamming the trunk or car door, or some other random neighborhood sound, why not put it after the paragraph about DM seeing the man in black walking toward the exit? Then it would support him leaving the house at 4:17 and driving off at 4:20, as seen on camera.

Instead, as the PCA is written, we have DM hearing crying and talking. We have camera audio, specified as less than 50 feet from X's wall, pick up whimpering or voices. We have a loud thud, then DM sees the man walking towards the exit. Imo, it seems the PCA is laying out the timeline of events from when DM woke up to when the car was seen leaving the scene.

Just because the PCA does not include anything about DM hearing a thud or barking doesn't necessarily mean she didn't report those things. Maybe the camera picking that up was more reliable info to add to the PCA because it had the specific 4:17 time stamp, which DM likely couldn't relay. Idk...
I'm so with you on your thinking here. I see the the PCA as a carefully crafted document that pulls together information from various sources to paint a detailed and entirely probable picture of how BK could have comitted this crime. Each piece of evidence linkis with others both temporarily and spacially -it suggests BK's route both to and from the scene, and suggests a reasonable sequence for his movements inside the house. IMO, everything in that document is there for a reason, to give a strong picture of how BK could have reasonably carried out the crime.

ETA: A
nd it also painstakingly shows how LE reasonably arrived at the point of electing BK as a probable suspect.
 
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That someone might need to have their memory corroborated by what Albertson's has on cameras and in computers.

No one at Albertson's is going to say what they think they remember to the public at this point in time (not many jobs out in those small towns; Albertson's cashier is a good job).

When they say what they remember to LE, LE is still going to want more than just a person's memory. Especially at this point.

I'm surprised you're certain that employees remember every purchase by every customer. That's not how I view things.

They have the time of his purchase and everything is computerized. As a business owner, given the time, date, and location I can give you a new receipt. I’m sure they know what he purchased if they felt the need to find out.
 
I wonder if his coursework even covered some of this stuff that looks so dumb?

I'm sure it probably wouldn't have çovered how a lot of phones keep wi-fi and Bluetooth on in airplane mode nowadays. I had no idea they did that, either! Some of the phone and network technology might move too quickly to cover well and doesn't sound as academic as I imagine a doctorate in his field might sound like?

I’m sure he would have had knowledge of the investigate techniques but it also seems that this started as stalking/peeping and I don’t think his original plan was murder.

Something seems to have changed his mind or caused it to escalate, in my opinion.
 
Oh dear god of course he does. I feel like in terms of what we may see at trial, we could have a bit of a Ted Bundy display on our hands. He’s not wrong for asking for those things, he’s quite smart to do so…but he’s ready to poke holes in everything, seems to already have the knowledge regarding what to request (I mean dude wants to know what regents and solvents were used in the testing to show the DNA results are questionable at best, wrong at the worst) and at the very least create as much reasonable doubt as possible, and it makes me feel a bit squeamish to be honest.
Yeah, I’d bet a dozen donuts that this guy will be a total PITA.
 
I always appreciate correction as well, as my method is very Holmesian (put every possible hypothesis on the table and then eliminate the ones that are untrue). This leads to me going down numerous rabbitholes.

All of the PAC-12 schools are outstanding, each in their own way, but it wasn't until I moved away (for a while) from the region and worked elsewhere that I realized just how lucky we on the West Coast are, to have so many types of MRI machines, have them available for every kind of use (including autopsies). For example, I do believe it was U of W medical professors who wrote papers on isotopes from metal objects being findable with MRI and pathological examination. They were likely not the first, but it's clear they use this tech very well at U of W (and probably WSU does it as well, but I can't imagine that the most sophisticated tech is even in Spokane - they would have reached out to Seattle, if they did the kind of radiological forensics I hope they did).


(They have top notch interventional radiology as well, which is specialized real time imaging for nuanced purposes).
The ÜW Seattle has one of the best medical schools there is, helps support world class cancer centers.
These words are spot on IMO:

Such perps "have poor mental health, and experience feelings of victimhood, inferiority, and loneliness."
...
"The murders may have been… an effort to assert some type of dominance."

And these are exactly my thoughts too concerning this tragedy.

JMO
I agree for the most part. I think his inability to handle a turn down by, perhaps, one of the girls who worked near-by, sparked his first feelings of rage and led him to stalk. It was easy, knowing where she worked, to just follow her home. Once armed with that knowledge of their home's location, I think his feelings of dominance grew and the stalking intensified. moo
 
What is a better way to use and understand it?

There isn't really, unless you're a clinician, unfortunately. Every field has its own gold standard diagnostic book, but the DSM is the only one that the public feels at ease using to diagnose everything. No one ever picks up Harrison's to understand the diagnostic criteria of a pulmonary embolism or aortic aneurysm. It's probably because they think psych disorders go strictly by the criteria laid out in the DSM, but they actually don't. That criteria misses the nuance involved. You can check all the boxes the DSM mentions and still not have the disorder it's describing. You can also check very few of the boxes and still have the disorder despite the book saying you don't meet criteria. All of that is lost when its used to "understand behavior" by people who don't study the discipline it's intended for. There's been nothing that suggests that BK has any condition listed in the DSM and parsing out symptoms listed in there is problematic.
 
I’m sure he would have had knowledge of the investigate techniques but it also seems that this started as stalking/peeping and I don’t think his original plan was murder.

Something seems to have changed his mind or caused it to escalate, in my opinion.
The escalation theory from stalking to murder is interesting. That would explain why, on those 11 or 12 late night ocassions, he didn't turn his phone off.

Pretty much up to this point, my thinking has been that at least on the night of the crimes, BK's intention was murder (knife), but something happenned that resulted in him laying to waste any self preserving or cautionary plans he may have had. I think this is because I cannot get past how he drove past the residence four times between 3.29 and 4.04, and parked, it must have been, on Queen street either directly in front of the house or very near.
 
Sorry, t hat was



Chloroform, too late to edit. :(
Chloroform would show up pretty quickly on multiple analyses (blood, tissues, even urine) and isn't one of the ones needing a lengthy toxicology report. They very quickly stated that the tox report wouldn't be relevant here

IMO he surprised 4 drowsy, somewhat intoxicated kids feeling safe in their home. It would only take one strike to prevent them from really fighting back anyway
 
When did BK move to Pullman? His professor at DeSales said he took online classes and she never met him. He could have been living there for over a year.
It seems unlikely that he would be in Pullman, living in housing typically used by WSU grad students, while finishing his masters at Sales. He could have lived in another apartment I supposed but I doubt he could have afforded market price for an apartment in the area on his own without working. If he a job in the area, I believe we would have heard from co-workers by now. MOO
 
I feel compelled to respond. And I will say I completely disagree about amateur use of DSM. Let me preface this by saying that I have done field diagnostics for research that supports DSM. At the beginning of my psychiatric research, I thought the same ("Everyone is in DSM.")

But spend one day in a major psychiatric clinic OR in an inpatient unit and you'll see that it's not true. The public uses phrases from DSM all the time, as descriptors.

That's not the design of DSM nor should we be using it that way,

At any rate, BK's diagnosis (VSS) is a neurological disorder, which causes perceptual disturbance. The term "mentally ill" has little meaning, but in general, most psychiatrists will tell you they treat "mental illness" and that neurologists treat VSS and similar syndromes.

Can someone have both psychiatric symptoms AND a neurological disorder? Yes.

ANYWAY, last night I realized that I"m not interested in diagnosing BK, per se. So I resoundingly agree with you. I want to eliminate the neurological (and the upbringing part, if any) in order to contemplate just what it is that makes some into a mass murderer/wannabe serial killer.

And while we cannot and have not ruled out characterological disorders (personality disorders), that group of descriptors gets us closer to the problem of evil. Modern psychiatric and psychology are in big debates about the problem of evil - just as we are, here.

For me, what's left over when we rule out neurological and mental health disorders (if any) is the problem of what causes a BK. I've added in "life stressors" to my own personal rubric because mentally fragile people do behave in reactive ways sometimes, if they are pushed past their limits (which by definitions are not the same as for the rest of us).

I'm fine with "Evil" being the category to which we assign this small segment of horrible monsters. Does someone set out to be Evil? Does it just befall them? Is there some demon or spiritual entity that imposes itself on them (as implied by folk literature on Evil)?

We're left with this mysterious force or thing called Evil. But what is it?? Is it just a residual category of the rest?

Naturally, we are left pondering our fellow humans, but I do not believe that each person is capable of the evil that BK inflicted. Not at all. There are predisposing conditions and some of us (many of us) are incapable of doing what he did. I reject entirely the idea that *anyone* could suddenly become a BK (and by so doing, I also reject nihilism - because if true, if we can ALL be as Evil, then all hope is lost and everything is meaningless - just as BK claimed as a teenager) That make us all just "sacks of meat" capable of anything, without souls or anchors or inner meaning. Which is how he felt.

I have never felt that way. And when I'm dead, I hope someone points out that not only did I never plan or contemplate killing or violently attacking anyone, not in this lifetime. I've got a few years to go - but pretty sure I'm going to get through the rest of my life without becoming a mass murderer.

Most people do. We should be marveling at how most of us are NOT evil. I fear that young people may actually buy into this idea, which is so depressing (that we are all equally capable of Evil). I should also add that these are moral and spiritual questions, so everyone is entitled to their view.

But, I totally agree with you that the Mental Health Model (or the Physical Health Model) do not adequately explain BK and that he is a candidate to be called Evil. I might not have agreed 30 years ago, but I do now.

Anyway, the intent of this post is to cheer you up, because occasionally I go to the same place as you have. But I'm convinced that most of us are not capable of this degree of Evil - I just don't know why BK has been capable. Mental health issues/neuro issues do NOT explain it. I just need to pare it down to what remains.

Where does Evil reside?

They asked this very question over and over during the Truth and Reconciliation hearings in South Africa, and then one of their members took it a step further and began doing prison interviews with the men most responsible for the atrocities their people suffered. Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela wrote a book called “A Human Being Died That Night” about what she discovered. Her thoughts on the nature of evil have shaped my thoughts and understanding greatly.

One big takeaway from that book I have is that people who feel no remorse, even when shown the consequences of their actions, have chosen evil over society. People who do feel remorse are not entirely evil and, though the road may be long, might have some possibility of fitting into society again (even from prison).
 
They asked this very question over and over during the Truth and Reconciliation hearings in South Africa, and then one of their members took it a step further and began doing prison interviews with the men most responsible for the atrocities their people suffered. Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela wrote a book called “A Human Being Died That Night” about what she discovered. Her thoughts on the nature of evil have shaped my thoughts and understanding greatly.

One big takeaway from that book I have is that people who feel no remorse, even when shown the consequences of their actions, have chosen evil over society. People who do feel remorse are not entirely evil and, though the road may be long, might have some possibility of fitting into society again (even from prison).
Remorse and gratitude are key IMO and MOO
 
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