ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow #3

[Cedarsage]

What if this is a revenge killing to get back at one of the victim’s family members? Nothing worse than killing someone’s child.

 

[Manwel]

Oh gosh I didn't even think of that, but of course they would. I love dogs but they are gross.

I'm guessing there's a lot of specific and gruesome details about this crime scene that won't be released for a while.
(Edited to fix typo)

I read an ME book that briefly acknowledged that cats will eat you hours after you're dead but your dog might hang on for a few days until it's hungry. I think blood they will still lick up regardless, more out of a scent-based need to check what it is. And I know this because I had a finger injury last year and the dog definitely licked up some spots of blood on the door.

But cats. They won't let a meal go to waste.

 

[Manwel]

I know MSM has reported both groups arrived home around 1:45am, but has LE explained how they know this for Ethan/Xana?

Wasn't Xana also on video at the food truck a few minutes after the girls ordered?

 

[KonaHonu]

The comments about the other 2 housemates are really rubbing me the wrong way.

It would be easy enough to say "we will not discuss the other 2 housemates at this time."

To say "perhaps they are victims, perhaps they are witnesses, perhaps they are the key to this whole thing" is a VERY, VERY strange thing to say in this circumstance.

I hope those two have the support they need right now.

I don't find the comments about the surviving roommates that strange or concerning. I think the working theory is that someone in that house was targeted. The surviving roommates may have seen or heard something (witnesses) or one of them could have been the target (victim). Certainly the blond survivor looks enough like the victims that the victims could have been mistaken for her. I have not seen anything to suggest they are looked at as suspects. The police have only said they have not ruled anyone out. That means they have not ruled me out either.

 

[Mariposa]

The comments about the other 2 housemates are really rubbing me the wrong way.

It would be easy enough to say "we will not discuss the other 2 housemates at this time."

To say "perhaps they are victims, perhaps they are witnesses, perhaps they are the key to this whole thing" is a VERY, VERY strange thing to say in this circumstance.

I hope those two have the support they need right now.

I also find those comments concerning and I’d even say, harsh. I hope the pressure of the investigation isn’t causing people to be scapegoated with insufficient evidence. There is something about the multiplicity of officials from all different entities giving varying tidbits to national and international outlets that is reading as sloppy or at a minimum undisciplined in my opinion.

 

[sleuth_truths]

I think I read here several pages back that Kaylee's ex lived close-by? If the person her sister said she (Kaylee) called 6 times is her ex (and I'm not sure that's been verified), it doesn't seem like a stretch that she would call him instead of 911 (especially if he lived very close). Just a thought.

 

[Emj]

This is bizarre to me. I'm listening to the local news report linked here: It says,

"Police say...the victims were the only ones in the house when the bodies were found. Two other roommates, though, were home at the time. They were not hurt."

How in the heck does that work? How can the victims be "the only ones in the house" while also "two other roommates were home at the time"? At the time of what?
Are they saying the two roommates were home "at the time" of the attack but not at the time of the discovery of the bodies? Or is this just sloppy writing/reporting/editing by the news outlet? Or is this just sloppy press work by the Law Enforcement? Because you can't have it both ways and it's really confusing.

If - BIG IF - the two surviving roommates were home at the time of the attack, but not in the house when the bodies were discovered, then does that mean they slept through at we've been speculating, then got up in the morning and left and never even realized all their other roommates had been murdered? I'm sure based on the layout of the house that is plausible. And if so WHOA! I can't imagine learning all that went on and you had no idea.

Of course it could be sloppy press work. But wow. What a nightmare either way. The lack of specificity in this case and clarity of reporting is really maddening. I feel bad for the people involved locally and the families.

 

[MassGuy]

What if this is a revenge killing to get back at one of the victim’s family members? Nothing worse than killing someone’s child.

That just doesn't seem to happen with any regularity. I see that theory thrown around during spousal murder cases, and it's never borne out.

You have a grudge, you take it out on the person you have a grudge with. This person apparently went room to room, massacring people.

 

[late1]

So...do you all think LE has a clue or not? At first I did. Now I am worried that they do not.

Just look at the incompetency in their "timeline/map" which is a solicitation for info from the community!

"11/13 0145 Kaylee and Maddie at residence"

No. They were at the food truck ON VIDEO until 1:52. Likely dropped off by Uber at ~2am but the point is LE has the exact time from Uber and neighbor's Ring video!

There is almost a 5 hour gap in Ethan and Xana's timeline!

Why not put accurate times in the timeline when soliciting tips? It would help residents and businesses as they review their own photos/videos for anything relevant. Think of how valuable random dashcam video became in the Gabby Petito case. LE is already building a "sloppy investigation" defense. They run the risk of creating false alibis and reasonable doubt if their times are off.

(Source: Kaylee's sister confirmed she verified the Uber dropped them off by viewing the neighbor's Ring camera.)

 

[tara83]

I find those comments every concerning and I’d even say, harsh. I hope the pressure of the investigation isn’t causing people to be scapegoated with insufficient evidence. There is something about the multiplicity of officials from all different entities giving varying tidbits to national and international outlets that is reading as sloppy or at a minimum undisciplined in my opinion.

That's what worries me.Very high profile case with LE and others involved seeming to make very odd comments that contradict each other.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

This theory would negate the possibility that this person is local or knows this house or the people in it. There's a couple turns you need to make to find it tucked up by an apartment complex, and somewhat blocked by other nearby houses/units.

But, you could, in theory, see the house from the ridge where another road is behind the house. If you entered from that road, or if you came from the apartment complex area, used the glass door by the kitchen as a point of entry, and you had never seen the front of the house before, it's possible you would only think there is an upstairs and a downstairs. They would likely see the banister leading downstairs inside, but I doubt they would expect people down there. They would think laundry/basement.

The fact that two girls were left alone entirely leads me think this wasn't someone who knows the people in the house because they would have wanted to get rid of potential witnesses. At this point, that would explain why the roommates are being heavily protected by LE, or why the chief would say the other day during the press conference, "We never said they were witnesses." Because in case the killer is watching, they want the killer to believe that they never saw or heard anything.

But in reality, one of them seems to have heard/seen something.

I believe this is a very good point being made.
The two other roommates are probably terrified at this point, for all the various reasons that we have expressed.

I feel LE KNOWS they have to help protect these two women for possible revenge from the killer. IF this killer was known to any of them, the killer could see the two other residents in the home as potentially dangerous to his identifying him.

For that reason, I feel that LE is actually trying to protect them. By insinuating that they COULD be suspects, might be an attempt to show the killer that those two are not providing LE with more damning information.

There is truth to be said that all 6 of these young women are ones that stalkers, assaulters go after.
The two other roommates need protection.

Blonde Vs Brunette Science: More #metoo for Blondes?

Blonde women are arguably the most sexually objectified and stereotyped women, but could this equate to more #metoo scenarios for blondes? Women often report ex

brainblogger.com

 

[Trino]

What if this is a revenge killing to get back at one of the victim’s family members? Nothing worse than killing someone’s child.

But they were in separate rooms.

 

[Lusitana]

I think this is moving into putting pressure on the roommates and that might backfire pretty badly.

 

[Cedarsage]

That just doesn't seem to happen with any regularity. I see that theory thrown around during spousal murder cases, and it's never borne out.

You have a grudge, you take it out on the person you have a grudge with. This person apparently went room to room, massacring people.

It’s still not 100% clear how all this unfolded.Some we’re sleeping,some were not, etc.. The picture is still very vague ,imo.

 

[Oregonmama]

The comments about the other 2 housemates are really rubbing me the wrong way.

It would be easy enough to say "we will not discuss the other 2 housemates at this time."

To say "perhaps they are victims, perhaps they are witnesses, perhaps they are the key to this whole thing" is a VERY, VERY strange thing to say in this circumstance.

I hope those two have the support they need right now.

This happens in a lot of cases but some victims end up being the suspect, JMO. LE could have a motive when they said that but we are not privy to everything they have in this case. If they have to bring in a FBI behavioral profiler like they are then LE must keep everyone on a list until they can be cleared.

 

[DrApollo]

Has anyone noted

I would guess that's possible because a few years ago, some local teens were killed in a terrible car accident and one of the teen's sisters posted a pic of her touching her dead sister's hand, and there were two bruises on the hand.

Some things to consider regarding fresh antemortem bruising vs. postmortem changes, especially in Xana's incredibly tragic situation.

It would be possible for fresh bruises to be formed shortly before death. Blunt force and pressure from penetrating injuries causes blood to bleed from rupture vessels into the surrounding tissue. These would appear as some bright markings. Comparative injuries are described as "fresh bruising" in the areas of the non-fatal stab wounds in Ronald Goldman's autopsy.

I want to heavily preface this by stating I am not a pathologist and certainly don't envy their job. If I am not mistaken, the first reports of Xana's apparent defensive injuries did not reappear in the publicly released autopsy. What could have caused the discrepancy?

Defensive bruising, like those seen in Ronald Goldman, can be diminished by several important factors. First, rapid exsanguination can occur following severing of major arteries such as carotid, aorta and abdominal aorta. Consciousness can be lost in 10-15 seconds. In Goldman's case, he was likely able to mount a much more vigorous defense in his case due to his greater size and strength and his likely higher level of alertness at the time of the attack. This provided enough time for the bruising described to occur before the fatal wound occurred as outlined in his autopsy.

As much as I hate it, this sweet and innocent girl would probably not be similarly matched physically and was likely less alert as she was at her home in the middle of the night. While her instincts and inner strength were beautiful and incredibly valiant, IMO it would have been a very difficult for anyone in such a situation to muster more than a quick reaction. Again, I have no idea what happened and can only speculate like the rest of us. However, if true, it would have some important implications. Rapid exsanguination following initial injury can remove blood from the body more quickly than it could enter tissue to cause antemortem bruising.

Once the heart quits pumping blood out, it begins to settle in the dependent areas of the body in the process of liver mortis. This causes a red to bluish discoloration in the areas most effected by gravity. For example, if laying on ones back, the regions of the back in contact with surface would pool with blood from the the rest of body. The areas under greater pressure would blanch a whitish color, leading to a mottled, bruised like appearance rather than a solid discolored region.

This process can be altered by postmortem factors up to 12 hours after death, at which time the liver mortis color patten is fixed and no longer changing. If we assume time of death between 1 and 4 am, this would mean that by the time the bodies were really looked at, the process was almost already comple te. Bruising appearances of the arm could occur in a couple ways.

First, if positioned on the arm, the areas in greater contact with the ground would be lighter and appear to have a "beaten" appearance. However, there is another way that the this could occur. If she were laying flat, the redness would be uniform on the side of the arm facing the ground. Or, if an arm was dangling off a bed, the hand and forearm would be a darker red. As I mentioned above, by 12 hours, the pattern of redness if fixed. However, if her body were moved, there would be a second pattern that shows a new postmortem body position. If the killer had moved the body, perhaps before the other girls got home, there would be changes. Even if the killer were very careful and positioned the body in the same way, it wouldn't change the regions they put significant force on while moving a body. Again, this is all speculation, but when I picture someone moving a body, I picture them grabbing the arms to pull. This would cause regions of significant blanching against a red and purple background. If grasped in a couple different spots, it may be possible that the blanching in some areas could overpower the red/purple mottling, especially given the significance amount of blood loss. I think this could very easily be seen and misunderstood by literally anyone but a pathologist as being areas of intense bruising on the arms.

Again, this is all speculation and my opinion without anything more than the information on TV and in these threads. It just makes me wonder, could she have been moved? What about the boyfriend? If we assume the bf was attacked in the hallway after perhaps hearing a disturbance following the attack of the first two girls, we can't help but feel that they were collateral damage. But if they were actually targeted initially, moving their bodies to appear as the unintended victims could serve as a distraction to the investigation.

This is why I only read and never typed in all the cases on here over the years. It is very easy to try and make things out of nothing when answers are desperately wanted for justice for the victims and comfort for their families. Hopefully this isn't to off the wall of a theory, and if so, I apologize. I am no expert in any of this.

 

[DizzyB]

I’ve had two people not call 911 in situations where 911 was absolutely who should have been called in my life. K may have been frightened and called who she thought could have helped her. Flip side of that is she may have been repeatedly calling in order to get a response. I’ve done that and finally received a text back because the person got tired of their vibrating phone continuously going off.

I do think the killer may have been watching (or even waiting inside) the house. With everyone coming and going all evening, he had to know that everyone was in place and he would not be interrupted by another individual coming home. The surviving roommates can provide so much information as to visitors, interpersonal relationships, any concerns, what had happened in everyone’s recent lives. Their participation and candid opinions can be key. Sure, it could be someone that was even in the house that night in one of their rooms. So far, nothing is off the table.

 

[sleuth_truths]

University of Idaho Murders: Victim Reportedly Spoke of a Stalker Months Ago, Killer Passed Survivors' Room

 

[Trebor5591]

I don't think on-line phone records are "LIVE" - I think you can see all the numbers called but only after a bill is crated. But what do I know.. I believe what she says now that she somehow knows she called multiple times during a short like 14 minute period.

Something terrible was up.

You don't call someone repeatedly unless there is an emergency or other conflict going on.

who is the "she" you are referring to? Do you have a link to validate what you are saying? Are you responding to another post? If so, please quote it, as I am quoting your post. It helps us readers to know what you are taking about! Thank you.

 

[late1]

To me, this does currently look confusing, and I hope LE will clarify.
The "time line map" indicates that X and E only spent one hour at the fraternity party. But that they were home as of 1:45, which does not account for a couple of hours.

Yeah, 4 hours and 45 minutes not accounted for. IMO LE must have a little more info than that.