ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #17

[ILOKAL]

I am guessing heck yes. In the repository, when JM was picked up for Driving Without Privileges (actually kind of a serious-ish crime in ID with two days min to six months max jail time) there was no accompanying charge like speeding. That did make me wonder if they were watching her, and the second she got behind the wheel, they took advantage of having a reason to bring her in.


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By LAW, LE is required to have probable cause for stopping her in the first place. With no other citations, it makes me wonder what the probable cause (if any) might have been.

 

[Groundwork]

OTOH, I would say, Bowerman "said" that the parents absolutely know where DeOrr is. I think everyone (though maybe not) realizes there is no evidence that the parents know anything ABOUT little DeOrr's disappearance. As definitive as "absolutely" SOUNDS, it's really just Bowerman's take on what the parents know. IMO

No evidence that *we* know of...
I believe we can safely assume there is a lot we do not know.

 

[bessie]

I can't seem to find the article where he uses the word "suspect". I did find the article where he says the are " persons of interest" as well as GGP and IR. If you could point me in that direction I will amend my previous post. Also, I give him great credit. He seems to be sincere and dedicated. Even a professional can sometimes be swayed to release information due to public pressure though.

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Sheriff names parents suspects in disappearance of Idaho toddler
By Crimesider Staff CBS News January 25, 2016, 4:26 PM

[...]
"They are the top persons of interest," Bowerman told CBS affiliate KBOI. "Does that mean they're suspects? Yeah I think so."

Parents of Missing Idaho Toddler Named Suspects in Summer 2015 Disappearance
by Rachael Trost NBC News Dateline Jan 25 2016, 4:46 pm ET

"We first became real suspicious of mom and dad after their initial polygraph tests, taken several weeks after DeOrr went missing. Then this past weekend, when the FBI handed over their reports and interviews, that's when we made the decision to inform the public," Sheriff Bowerman told Dateline.

There are more links in the Media Thread.

 

[Dee10]

"Solid" was said by Penner not Bowerman on July 16th. A lot has changed since then.

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/deorr-kunz-missing-family/30239047/

 

[Rayemonde]

Thank you Raymondo. I still don't see a direct quote from him using the word "Suspect" I see it in the title of article, but he uses the words "top persons of interest" I still think the media are playing with words. They have been POI for awhile. I do agree that they have been "less than truthful" but that could be attributed to many different things up to and including murder for sure, but it could also be that they did drugs during the timeframe that the child disappears. I'm not trying to argue with you, your posts are always good and informative, I'm just not seeing this angle yet. Thank you for finding the articles for me. [emoji4]

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If you listen to his interview, I believe he says "Does that mean they're suspects? Yeah, I think so".

Anyone got a link to the interview? I can't find it.

 

[ILOKAL]

I feel like some people are casting doubt on Bowerman here... I really don't think that Bowerman has just randomly decided to name the parents as suspects after all this time out of desperation, or to please the public or whatever. I mean, give the man a little credit. Apart from anything else, he's not in this alone - I think the FBI will have agreed it was time to name them as suspects, if it wasn't their idea in the first place. JMO. Plus we know that LE have recently received "previously withheld" information. We don't know what I is, but I feel certain that it incriminate the parents.

At the beginning Bowerman was accused of being a relative of the parents who was covering up for them, and now he's being accused of making them a scapegoat... Guy can't catch a break...

It is NOT known that LE "received" previously withheld information or if that was a reference to information that LE had previously withheld. IMO. I thought I saw a reference to that somewhere in an article during the past two days but maybe not.

 

[redheart]

Sheriff Bowerman: “Right! Unbeknownst to us while we were doing our grid search, someone came in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one at that site, and I’m assuming it’s a favorite site of their loved one, and without thinking, they deposited cremains, not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene and what it would do. Within a couple days our dogs were telling us we need to spend more time up at the reservoir, and so we dove it for 2-3 more days and put side-scan sonar, and then we find out from one of our BLM (?) Rangers that they stopped this individual coming out and were informed they had deposited some cremains in the reservoir.”

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12007596#post12007596

RSBM

BBM
This jumps out at me every time I read it. This interview was from August 18th, right? Already then SB is referring to it as a crime scene.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Nice catch! Surely, someone would have heard a gunshot? IMO

Maybe that is one of those "ancillary" or "auxiliary" issues. Maybe someone did.

(Although I do think that gunshots can be easily attributed to backfiring or hunting. I can't say that I take too many gunshot sounds seriously. Sadly.)

moo

eta: I cannot imagine any scenario in which death by shooting would not leave any trace evidence. I think it can be discounted. But that's jmo

 

[Trident]

Trace was my word.

TRACE:
a : a mark or line left by something that has passed; also : footprint
b : a path, trail, or road made by the passage of animals, people, or vehicles

To a dog, that would be a scent trail.

Here's what SB said:

SB: Exactly! We had…we’ve had a total of uh I believe 18 dogs in there and those dogs should have alerted, you know even after the fact, after the length of time that we’d been looking should alert should that child be in there, but my two scent dogs that were in there initially, they should have found that child. They really should have.

TG: And so are there any more plans to use those cadaver dogs or any search dogs at the moment?

SB: You know, I’m still getting calls from volunteers from all over the United States offering to come in with their dogs. I’m not sure at this point we’ve uh…We’ve covered every inch literally 20-30 times
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12122056#post12122056


Nate Eaton: So they called 911. You guys arrive and begin searching.

Sheriff Bowerman: “Correct.”

Nate Eaton: “And, um, at this point were their vehicles searched, the tents, I guess everything out there was probably searched?”

Sheriff Bowerman: “We did a…I think a very thorough investigation. We uh took two initial track dogs in. Uh, one of them being mine and one being Salmon Police Department. They’re trained to search for people who are lost. Um, they were given a scent. They went from the campground up to the reservoir and then back to the campground and we…we searched everywhere a small child could easily hide or climb into or fall into.”

Nate Eaton: “But nothing…”

Sheriff Bowerman: “And we found absolutely nothing.”

Nate Eaton: “Talk a little bit about the cremains that were dumped into, because the dogs were getting a scent…”

Sheriff Bowerman: “Right! Unbeknownst to us while we were doing our grid search, someone came in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one at that site, and I’m assuming it’s a favorite site of their loved one, and without thinking, they deposited cremains, not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene and what it would do. Within a couple days our dogs were telling us we need to spend more time up at the reservoir, and so we dove it for 2-3 more days and put side-scan sonar, and then we find out from one of our BLM (?) Rangers that they stopped this individual coming out and were informed they had deposited some cremains in the reservoir.”

Nate Eaton: “Had he…had Deorr been in the reservoir, his body would have been recovered by now?”

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12007596#post12007596

Note that he says within a couple of days the dogs were leading them to the reservoir. That sounds to me like the cadaver dogs were present and working for a day or two before they led them back to the reservoir. But I certainly could be wrong. Maybe he'll clarify tonight. To get back to my original point, whatever the order of events, SB is confident that the dogs searched thoroughly, and detected nothing of relevance.

Yep, that's what he said.

 

[ILOKAL]

I can't seem to find the article where he uses the word "suspect". I did find the article where he says the are " persons of interest" as well as GGP and IR. If you could point me in that direction I will amend my previous post. Also, I give him great credit. He seems to be sincere and dedicated. Even a professional can sometimes be swayed to release information due to public pressure though.

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I listened to the interview you're referring to. It's Bowerman's most recent interview. Can't recall who was interviewing him though.

 

[bessie]

He said "solid" very early on. Cops change their minds as evidence accumulates, the same as we do.

The sheriff said the investigation began to turn in the second week of January after the FBI and behavior analysts turned over their findings. Detectives brought them in yet again for follow up interviews and they continued with their story, the sheriff says.

"I thought I'd give them another opportunity to tell us what happened, " he said. "I decided it was time the public knew what my concerns were -- I don't believe we have an abducted child."

http://kboi2.com/news/local/report-...issing-toddler-deorr-kunz-officially-suspects

 

[ILOKAL]

According to the parents, it was random strangers from out of town...

According to Bowerman, they were spreading the ashes of a loved one who frequented the area.

 

[Rayemonde]

It is NOT known that LE "received" previously withheld information or if that was a reference to information that LE had previously withheld. IMO. I thought I saw a reference to that somewhere in an article during the past two days but maybe not.

Really? It never occurred to me to interpret it that way. I just assumed that a witness had gone to LE with previously withheld information. I think that's the most obvious and most logical interpretation of what Penner said, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ILOKAL]

According to the parents, it was random strangers from out of town...

According to Bowerman, they were spreading the ashes of a loved one who frequented the area. I think Bessie posted that yesterday from a portion of the interview. One of the Bureau of Land Management ranger's noticed what they were doing.

 

[Groundwork]

I could be wrong, but I am thinking the 4 hours unaccounted for time refers to the cash register receipt time until the lst responders showed up at the campsite. There is no way the parents would know when responders or a ranger somewhere in the park would show up though.

I wonder if it might mean from the time IR or ggp saw Deorr in the morning (before he and his parents left for the store) to the time someone announced to them that Deorr was missing. If ggp was told Deorr was sleeping in the car upon return from the store (which would make it seem less questionable to leave ggp in charge) or something along those lines, to stop buying the parent's story would mean that the window of time would increase to just about 4 hours, imo.

 

[Rayemonde]

The sheriff said the investigation began to turn in the second week of January after the FBI and behavior analysts turned over their findings. Detectives brought them in yet again for follow up interviews and they continued with their story, the sheriff says.

"I thought I'd give them another opportunity to tell us what happened, " he said. "I decided it was time the public knew what my concerns were -- I don't believe we have an abducted child."

http://kboi2.com/news/local/report-...issing-toddler-deorr-kunz-officially-suspects

I suppose that "previously withheld" information could mean previously withheld by the FBI? Bowerman did say last year that the fbi had said there was some evidence they could not analyse, and he didn't know why that was. May they've finally analysed it and sent their findings over to the sheriff's department. :dunno:

 

[ILOKAL]

Really? The parents? From what I recall it was Bowerman stating it was an elderly person spreading the cremains of a loved one in a spot beloved by them.

Talk about shifting, whispering smells, scents, and days. The answer to the cremains is blowing on the wind to get in the noses of SB's top-notch dogs.

:cow:

I just posted the very same thing! I'm trying to catch up from last night and reply as I go along. Didn't intend to repeat what you had already said.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

OMG, I love WS so much. I know people make fun of people who diagnose themselves on the internet, but sometimes the web can be a good doctor, as in this post. I too have BRF (aka RBF), but never had a name for it until today! Thank you so much.

I have it a bit tough because I'm married to a man with TES (Twinkle-eye Syndrome), who always looks on the verge of some charming laugh-inducing mischief, though he's really quite serious. Our photos together look "off" sometimes, and I avoid the camera.

Thank you thank you thank you for sharing. This post means the world to me, despite the scowl on my face as I post this. I'm actually thrilled.

Sorry for the tangent.

With deadly serious face I say "thank you" too to CanadianWells!

... and to say something re the case: What if both parents JM and VDK know, where little Deorr is and they are covering up an arranged "abduction" because of their relatives, who would be horrified about such a project ...?

 

[Trident]

With deadly serious face I say "thank you" too to CanadianWells!

... and to say something re the case: What if both parents JM and VDK know, where little Deorr is and they are covering up an arranged "abduction" because of their relatives, who would be horrified about such a project ...?

Care to share with the rest of us? If not, why not?

 

[ClaireNC]

It is NOT known that LE "received" previously withheld information or if that was a reference to information that LE had previously withheld. IMO. I thought I saw a reference to that somewhere in an article during the past two days but maybe not.

“The leads were obtained from previously withheld information,” Chief Deputy Steve Penner told EastIdahoNews.com late Saturday night. “The investigation is continuing.” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/lemhi-county-sheriff-deputy-we-have-new-leads-in-deorr-case/