ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

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We have discussed hot car. Somebody a few threads ago said the weather was low-mid 80s that day, but it appears this something likely happened earlier in the day and not at the hottest point. Nonetheless, how long would it take a child to succomb to hyperthermia in 80 degree weather? If there was no ventilation then the car could easily reach mid 90s? My guess is 2-3 hours? I really have no idea...but it could explain their lying and is not drug related (although i still cannot find SB rejecting that notion). It happens and people face charges. In fact, a judge was just charged with manslaughter for leaving his son to perish in a car.

Judge Naramore has been charged with criminally negligent homicide, which is a class A misdemeanor and carries a maximum penalty of up to one year in jail and a fine of up to $2,500.

http://m.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/feb/11/arrest-warrant-issued-circuit-judge-after-sons-hot/

Other parents have received conditional discharges for the same situation and charge. So jmo, I don't think there's any way this judge will see any jail time.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...-Be-Sentenced-in-Hot-Car-Death-299162441.html

Even if the parent's story was true (they walked off to go fishing without making sure someone was watching their son, leaving him unsupervised around water, an open campfire, wild animals etc), they could probably be charged with criminally negligent homicide or a similar misdemeanor charge, such as child endangerment. Jmo.

Walking off and leaving their son unsupervised in the wilderness doesn't make them look any better than accidentally leaving him in a hot car would, imo. I can't imagine why they would attempt to cover up their negligence by fabricating a different tale of negligence. Jmo.
 
Hmmm, I believe police need probable cause to stop someone, but is it probable cause that is needed to arrest someone?

They need a very small amount of 'probable cause' to stop someone.

They need a larger amount of probable cause to attain a search warrant to look for evidence.

They then need an even larger amount of probable cause to arrest someone. A bit more needed for the charges to stick.

And then a major amount of probable cause, with no reasonable doubt, to get a guilty verdict. :jail:
 
So you're saying that doubting the parents makes baby DeOrr sad? I'm sorry, but that feels like emotional blackmail to try and stop people from searching for the truth. It is not defiling his life or memory to try and find out what happened to him, even if that means scrutinizing his parents.
Phew I guess I'm glad we have competent and not gullible LE team who can see through the parents' multiple deceptions.
 
Judge Naramore has been charged with criminally negligent homicide, which is a class A misdemeanor and carries a maximum penalty of up to one year in jail and a fine of up to $2,500.

http://m.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/feb/11/arrest-warrant-issued-circuit-judge-after-sons-hot/

Other parents have received conditional discharges for the same situation and charge. So jmo, I don't think there's any way this judge will see any jail time.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...-Be-Sentenced-in-Hot-Car-Death-299162441.html

Even if the parent's story was true (they walked off to go fishing without making sure someone was watching their son, leaving him unsupervised around water, an open campfire, wild animals etc), they could probably be charged with criminally negligent homicide or a similar misdemeanor charge, such as child endangerment. Jmo.

Walking off and leaving their son unsupervised in the wilderness doesn't make them look any better than accidentally leaving him in a hot car would, imo. I can't imagine why they would attempt to cover up their negligence by fabricating a different tale of negligence. Jmo.

Ok..thank you for providing those links. Not very logical how some charges are assessed....and since the judge has connections and likely fubds for a highly rated defense attorney, he will likely get any time.

I agree it makes very little sense that the parents would create all of this to cover a mistake or negligence attributing to DeOrr's death. That is one reason I stay convinced drugs are involved.

SB stated:
“They’re not able to tell the same story twice because they’ve told so many stories,” County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told KTVB-TV. “We’re getting changes in the stories all the time.”

The events and surroundings were not that complicated, so why is so difficult to state the facts? Unnecessary confusion arises from other activity. Jmo
 
"those who seek to find him, and are seeking justice for him".

Can that not be done without defiling and hurting the parents during the seeking?How does LE solve the cases they DO solve? Do they sit around a table discussing every possible scenario under the sun, no matter how bazaar? Or do they follow the evidence? Maybe THAT'S why these outrageous theories come to be . . . . because there's just no evidence to follow. IMO

Actually, that is exactly what they do. They brainstorm with each other and try and think of every possible scenario, even bizarre ones,then check them each off the list. They do parallel investigations at the start of each case. They look at the spouse, the teen offspring, any possible 'flings', angry co-workers, neighbors, random strangers, RSO's, estranged family members, ANYONE and EVERYONE is a potential suspect at the start.
 
I agree it makes very little sense that the parents would create all of this to cover a mistake or negligence attributing to DeOrr's death. That is one reason I stay convinced drugs are involved.

SB stated:
“They’re not able to tell the same story twice because they’ve told so many stories,” County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told KTVB-TV. “We’re getting changes in the stories all the time.”

The events and surroundings were not that complicated, so why is so difficult to state the facts? Unnecessary confusion arises from other activity. Jmo

Yeah, I agree with you and I think that's why a lot of people have mentioned possible drug use as a theory. Oh dear, the baby got the drugs, we're all panicked because we don't want to get in trouble for having illegal drugs, let's hide the body. People aren't putting that theory out there because they want to be mean to the parents and make them look bad, imo, it's because they don't want to believe that these people are capable of anything worse than being neglectful. They're trying to cast them in the best light possible.

When parents kill a child, the most common cause of death is a beating that goes too far. I haven't been able to find any statistics for parents who make their child disappear and then claim they were abducted or got lost, but just imo from similar cases I've read about, it's usually the same - violent punishment that goes to far, as opposed to an accident or premeditated murder... The only case I can think of offhand where the official story is that the parents panicked and covered up an accident,.is the case of Lonzie Barton, whose caretaker said he hid the body after Lonzie accidentally drowned in the bathtub because he wasn't being supervised. And jmo, but I don't believe that story for a second, since Lonzie was getting mysterious bumps and bruises before he disappeared, and he had a big bump on his head, had fluid coming out of his ear and was unwell the day before his staged disappearance.

Article about parents who kill their children -

Nearly half of all victims died from physical beatings or other injuries at a parent's hands.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/10/parents-kill-children-fbi-data/15280259/

I'm going to have to track down the actual study, because I'm curious what the cause of death for the rest is. Do shooting, strangling, drowning etc count as "physical beatings and other injuries"? it's not clear in the article.
 
I think they are waiting to see if Deorr's body is found before filing charges. Once someone is charged, the clock starts ticking for the defendant's right to a speedy trial. If LE presses charges now, discovery process starts. LE must turn over to the defense whatever evidence they have. If the evidence is largely circumstantial, and not lots of forensics, or hard evidence, a jury may find the defendant 'not guilty'. Say a week later the body is found, and there's evidence of a murder, or Deorr is found living with someone else, well, charges can't be placed on them. They wouldn't be able to retry them just because new evidence is available.

Thus in several cases I'm following right now, an arrest hasn't been made because time is on the side of the state or prosecution. In several cases, the belief is the victim is deceased, but haven't been located. LE realizes they can't save the victim, but they can wait and hope for more evidence to have a more solid case in court.

I'm still not convinced that DeOrr didn't wander though. There's been way too many cases where drones, dogs, LE, and multiple searches have found nothing, and then an everyday citizen finds the body. There's been cases that a body of water was repeatedly searched, LE convinced the body wasn't in that body of water, only for a fisherman, or someone else to find the body months later. (Biggest one I'm remembering is Teleka Patrick. That small pond right where her car was located. It was sonar searched, and multiple searches. Yet months later, a fisherman found her in that same pond.)

As grown up as those woods were where they were camping, and all the downed trees, briars, rocks, etc in the area, I'm not convinced his small body couldn't still be there. Possibly even within yards of where searchers have searched.

While an abduction seems impossible, I don't think it can be completely ruled out either. I just watched some youtube videos of different cases, and in one, there was a 3 minute time frame in which the child was abducted!! THREE MINUTES!!!! Granted it was a child waiting on a bus, and on the side of a road instead of the wilderness, yet it happened. There was also a case where a stranger scoped out a home, killed everyone but the two children, and abducted them, he had them both at a campground, and killed the little boy. The little girl survived and was seen at a pizza place I believe it was, and the waitress recognized her, and called police. Shasta? I think. People were stunned it was a stranger!

I also haven't ruled out the parents are involved. I truly just don't know what has happened to DeOrr, but think of him often. One day I hope we have answers!!!!

JMO!

Thanks for all of that.
I agree, it's hard to rule out the possibility of Deorr being over-looked in the woods given the results we've seen from searches in other cases.
If the parents disappeared him then there is no guarantee that he was buried either. So above and below and everywhere in-between is where we have to look if no one's going to confess.

I remember Shasta and Dylan too.
Here's a good article describing how the waitress Amber Deahn saved Shasta Groene from her abductor.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/03/nation/na-duncan3
I won't mention the perp's name but just to say I hope the sf is truly suffering.
 
Yeah, I agree with you and I think that's why a lot of people have mentioned possible drug use as a theory. Oh dear, the baby got the drugs, we're all panicked because we don't want to get in trouble for having illegal drugs, let's hide the body. People aren't putting that theory out there because they want to be mean to the parents and make them look bad, imo, it's because they don't want to believe that these people are capable of anything worse than being neglectful. They're trying to cast them in the best light possible.

When parents kill a child, the most common cause of death is a beating that goes too far. I haven't been able to find any statistics for parents who make their child disappear and then claim they were abducted or got lost, but just imo from similar cases I've read about, it's usually the same - violent punishment that goes to far, as opposed to an accident or premeditated murder... The only case I can think of offhand where the official story is that the parents panicked and covered up an accident,.is the case of Lonzie Barton, whose caretaker said he hid the body after Lonzie accidentally drowned in the bathtub because he wasn't being supervised. And jmo, but I don't believe that story for a second, since Lonzie was getting mysterious bumps and bruises before he disappeared, and he had a big bump on his head, had fluid coming out of his ear and was unwell the day before his staged disappearance.

Article about parents who kill their children -



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/10/parents-kill-children-fbi-data/15280259/

I'm going to have to track down the actual study, because I'm curious what the cause of death for the rest is. Do shooting, strangling, drowning etc count as "physical beatings and other injuries"? it's not clear in the article.

I have been looking for stats too hoping to turn up something regarding the number of parents who try to cover up death with claims of abduction or missing children. I cannot find anything that specific.

I am guessing that gunshots, strangulation..etc would not fall under the category of abuse in most instances. There have been a fair amount of cases in the past year where parents have murdered their children for revenge on a spouse or simply because of their own failures. Several murder suicide cases come to mind. Still, the bulk is repeated abuse and neglect, and as that study shows, the average age of the victims is very young as opposed to those murdered. I still believe stats will show that in abusive households, drugs are very likely another factor.
 
Thanks for all of that.
I agree, it's hard to rule out the possibility of Deorr being over-looked in the woods given the results we've seen from searches in other cases.
If the parents disappeared him then there is no guarantee that he was buried either. So above and below and everywhere in-between is where we have to look if no one's going to confess.

I remember Shasta and Dylan too.
Here's a good article describing how the waitress Amber Deahn saved Shasta Groene from her abductor.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/03/nation/na-duncan3
I won't mention the perp's name but just to say I hope the sf is truly suffering.

He's still alive and purportedly has a gf and dozens of supporters. To this day, he continues to maintain his creepy blog apparently through his gf. His attenpt to reverse his waiver of appeal failed in California where he received two life sentences. However, his federal sentence for the Idaho murders was death. He's awaiting that but still managing to get the attention he so deeply craves.

The judge who presided over his California trial called him, " the evilest of the evil," and jurors from his federal trial have spoken about the long term effects on their psychological well being after being subjected to the details of those crimes. He videotaped portions and they had to view this. Honestly, I cannot think of a more sick and psychopathic criminal.
 
He's still alive and purportedly has a gf and dozens of supporters. To this day, he continues to maintain his creepy blog apparently through his gf. His attenpt to reverse his waiver of appeal failed in California where he received two life sentences. However, his federal sentence for the Idaho murders was death. He's awaiting that but still managing to get the attention he so deeply craves.

The judge who presided over his California trial called him, " the evilest of the evil," and jurors from his federal trial have spoken about the long term effects on their psychological well being after being subjected to the details of those crimes. He videotaped portions and they had to view this. Honestly, I cannot think of a more sick and psychopathic criminal.

Thank you for the info.
Hope to see him in Terre Haute soon then.
 
I'm going to try to put down the ramblings in my head
- LE doesn't want to arrest and charge anyone too soon. If they are charged and it goes to court and get off , they cannot be charged again. If new evidence comes up , it's still too late. LE would rather wait and make sure things stick
- I think LE means the parents will come in and communicate but what they are communicating is untrue.
- Klein was not hired by the parents. Therefore he holds no duty to relay information to them.
-I really wish an updated article , a news conference or something would happen
Bessie any luck getting Klein on the radio ?


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In reply to Gia's question asking why there have been no arrests, it certainly can't be because of a risk of double jeopardy as SB has stated. That causes me to question what the real reason is? Maybe it's because SB has also said he has no clue. I've followed along on this thread and many have stated, accurately IMO, but for some "less than truthful" inconsistencies in polygraph irrelevant or relevant questions, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that these parents harmed their precious son in any way. That to me seems like the reason the parents haven't been arrested.

Once one is under arrest, charges must be filed within a few days. Once charges are filed, the defense is entitled to disclosure. If SB et al. need more time to gather evidence and information, the defense will easily be able to get the charges dropped OR demand the right to a speedy trial, thus destroying all the work done so far.

So.

Taking time to get all ducks in a row = greater chance of a conviction
 
I feel like they have. I don't really understand why it's always stated as fact that they havent. I'm not sure what more would be expected from them. SB has stated a few times now they have been cooperative.

SB said they conducted their own search after being removed from the site he disappeared from. Then they did go set up fund me accounts that they were right away bashed for. Then bashed for not putting up billboards that they obviously didn't have money for. They've given interviews and that also wasn't good enough. Then they held a benifit and raised the rest of the money to pay for Klein in full.

From following along with other missing children's cases it seems as if it's up to the media on which child gets a spot light. At some point the public (people like us) need to get up and get out there and help hang up flyers rather then sit back and criticize them for not doing more.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

The public HAS helped. The public has been sharing posters on SM, the public has gathered money and donations for billboards, the public has raised funds to hire a PI ... I'm not sure what more the public CAN do at this point.
 
The public HAS helped. The public has been sharing posters on SM, the public has gathered money and donations for billboards, the public has raised funds to hire a PI ... I'm not sure what more the public CAN do at this point.

Invite them on Tricia's radio show? I'm sure they'll jump at the chance to get their side of the story out there and beg people to keep looking for their son, right? Just like they've jumped at the chance of all the news coverage they've been offered...
 
The public HAS helped. The public has been sharing posters on SM, the public has gathered money and donations for billboards, the public has raised funds to hire a PI ... I'm not sure what more the public CAN do at this point.
Has any of this actually helped? How much has sm actually helped? From what the PI and SB has said all sm has done was make things harder. I'm not sure if I'd consider that helping as much as I'd consider it a problem.
It's a two way street. Not everybody lives life on sm. Not everyone is going to see flyers of him shared on fb.
But yet when they showed up to search the area after LE let them back in the video how many people where there? Next to none compared to how many have an opinion.

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Hey, are there giant snakes in that area? We've all seen videos of a giant snake gobbling up other animals, swallowing them whole.
That would explain no blood, no trace of little DeOrr at all.
Just swallowed him up, tiny cowboy boots and all.
Really, that's the only theory I can come up with that doesn't include one of the four being involved in some way.
Oh, but then how could the parents been LTT about knowing where he is or what happened to him?
Sigh...back to the drawing board.

:ufo:
 
He's still alive and purportedly has a gf and dozens of supporters. To this day, he continues to maintain his creepy blog apparently through his gf. His attenpt to reverse his waiver of appeal failed in California where he received two life sentences. However, his federal sentence for the Idaho murders was death. He's awaiting that but still managing to get the attention he so deeply craves.

The judge who presided over his California trial called him, " the evilest of the evil," and jurors from his federal trial have spoken about the long term effects on their psychological well being after being subjected to the details of those crimes. He videotaped portions and they had to view this. Honestly, I cannot think of a more sick and psychopathic criminal.

OT....I remember that case and it was terrible. The poor girl and her poor family. This guy was a sicko and I just read some of the articles and I did not realize he had done well in recent schooling and it said he was about to graduate before his crime spree and he had gotten arrested for another case before that and was released on bail.

His previous case before that went back years. IMO he was a classic case of a pedophile who could not be fixed and wish LE would have realized he was still a danger to society.

Kind of makes you wonder if he had done other things to other kids that were never reported because he was never going to stop damaging kids lives. A real monster to children and he had better never see outside of bars again or kids will be at risk.
 
Yeah, I agree with you and I think that's why a lot of people have mentioned possible drug use as a theory. Oh dear, the baby got the drugs, we're all panicked because we don't want to get in trouble for having illegal drugs, let's hide the body. People aren't putting that theory out there because they want to be mean to the parents and make them look bad, imo, it's because they don't want to believe that these people are capable of anything worse than being neglectful. They're trying to cast them in the best light possible.

When parents kill a child, the most common cause of death is a beating that goes too far. I haven't been able to find any statistics for parents who make their child disappear and then claim they were abducted or got lost, but just imo from similar cases I've read about, it's usually the same - violent punishment that goes to far, as opposed to an accident or premeditated murder... The only case I can think of offhand where the official story is that the parents panicked and covered up an accident,.is the case of Lonzie Barton, whose caretaker said he hid the body after Lonzie accidentally drowned in the bathtub because he wasn't being supervised. And jmo, but I don't believe that story for a second, since Lonzie was getting mysterious bumps and bruises before he disappeared, and he had a big bump on his head, had fluid coming out of his ear and was unwell the day before his staged disappearance.

Article about parents who kill their children -



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/10/parents-kill-children-fbi-data/15280259/

I'm going to have to track down the actual study, because I'm curious what the cause of death for the rest is. Do shooting, strangling, drowning etc count as "physical beatings and other injuries"? it's not clear in the article.
I don't think the problem is that anyone is trying to be mean as much as uneducated assumptions are being stated as fact.
I agree drugs make sense. So does them getting drunk and some thing happening. But we don't know that for sure. The PI has said it's not an issue.
I mean in her interview all she did was move her tongue around her teeth. That doesn't equal meth mouth. Or that she killed her child and hide his body.


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Once one is under arrest, charges must be filed within a few days. Once charges are filed, the defense is entitled to disclosure. If SB et al. need more time to gather evidence and information, the defense will easily be able to get the charges dropped OR demand the right to a speedy trial, thus destroying all the work done so far.

So.

Taking time to get all ducks in a row = greater chance of a conviction

Respectfully, first they have to find some ducks!
 
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