ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[CoverMeCagney]

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.

Give over!

 

[misty48]

Give over!

D'Andre Lane/Bianca Jones case. See what they had to do to get Eddie the cadaver dog to give an alert on the car seat.
Another case in the USA http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1604/18/ng.01.html.

 

[skinnycat]

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.

Can you provide a link that has the information that a cadaver dog cannot smell a deceased body if the body is in brown paper bag, sounds like a good read.

 

[desert-blue]

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.

And IR just happened to have those things, killed DeOrr (was it premeditated or an accident?) and buried him with no one noticing a thing? And did such an incredible job that not a trace of DeOrr has been found in the past 15 months?

ETA: All plastic is porous.

 

[The Apparition]

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.

You forgot to mention about 4 hours of digging time! Issac doesn't look like he is in very good physical condition, I honestly don't think he could dig a 6x6 hole by himself. If any grave site up on the campgrounds wasn't dug at least 6 feet deep all kinds of animals would've been all over it.

I get it you don't believe in dogs, Klein, LE, and most of the board, but try to bring it better than saying a paper bag and a shovel is all that would be needed to hide a corpse.

 

[neesaki]

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.

No, HRD dogs aren't perfect, just as humans aren't perfect. The skills of an HRD dog depend on their training as well as their handler. Then again the HRD team used by Klein is one of the best in the country. I've never read anything about waxed paper bags, and by a "bin" bag are you referring to a plastic garbage bag ? I'm not sure about either, but even if they couldn't smell through the bag, it's unlikely that a plastic bag can be 100% sealed, thus some scent would most likely leak out, not to mention possible transfer of the scent to the outside of the bag during the handling process by the perp. And all of us know that read here that the dogs can detect remains buried in the earth, even after it's been there for years and years.
https://behindthecrime.wordpress.com/about/the-working-dogs/

A cadaver dog can actually detect human remains through concrete, buried underground, or at the bottom of a body of water, using its extremely well-honed nose to search for faint traces of the chemicals emitted by the human body during decomposition.
​

IIRC, didn't Klein report that Chance alerted to an area they believe may have been a holding place for a body?

In addition to being used to find whole bodies, cadaver dogs are also trained to react to any trace of human remains. This can be very useful in crime investigations, because a cadaver dog can indicate that a cadaver was in a particular location at one point, even if it is no longer there​

 

[koios]

The question "Were the parents involved?" contains an implicit assumption, which has no parallel in law, and has no rightful place in criminal investigation, in my opinion.
It assumes only two possible answers: "Yes, both A and B were involved" or "No, neither A nor B were involved" and excludes the other possibilities.

 

[neesaki]

And IR just happened to have those things, killed DeOrr (was it premeditated or an accident?) and buried him with no one noticing a thing? And did such an incredible job that not a trace of DeOrr has been found in the past 15 months?

ETA: All plastic is porous.

Thank you, an example comes to mind of trash inside plastic cans inside garbage cans or a dumpster. Just imagine something really pungent like raw chicken.... really, really bad if it's been there long enough to spoil, no matter how tightly the bags are tied shut. And a dog's sense of smell is 1000 times more sensitive than ours. http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/

 

[koios]

No, HRD dogs aren't perfect, just as humans aren't perfect. The skills of an HRD dog depend on their training as well as their handler. Then again the HRD team used by Klein is one of the best in the country. I've never read anything about waxed paper bags, and by a "bin" bag are you referring to a plastic garbage bag ? I'm not sure about either, but even if they couldn't smell through the bag, it's unlikely that a plastic bag can be 100% sealed, thus some scent would most likely leak out, not to mention possible transfer of the scent to the outside of the bag during the handling process by the perp. And all of us know that read here that the dogs can detect remains buried in the earth, even after it's been there for years and years.
https://behindthecrime.wordpress.com/about/the-working-dogs/


IIRC, didn't Klein report that Chance alerted to an area they believe may have been a holding place for a body?

On you last point, the relevant lines from the KIC report are
"5. Camp site ground .75 miles due East of the camp ground. Area 5 : Investigators believe this site may have been a 'holding site' for some type of human body."
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/07/private-investigator-issues-lengthy-report-deorr-kunz-case/
The place may be approximately located, by measurement, on Google aerial images.

 

[misty48]

No, HRD dogs aren't perfect, just as humans aren't perfect. The skills of an HRD dog depend on their training as well as their handler. Then again the HRD team used by Klein is one of the best in the country. I've never read anything about waxed paper bags, and by a "bin" bag are you referring to a plastic garbage bag ? I'm not sure about either, but even if they couldn't smell through the bag, it's unlikely that a plastic bag can be 100% sealed, thus some scent would most likely leak out, not to mention possible transfer of the scent to the outside of the bag during the handling process by the perp. And all of us know that read here that the dogs can detect remains buried in the earth, even after it's been there for years and years.
https://behindthecrime.wordpress.com/about/the-working-dogs/


IIRC, didn't Klein report that Chance alerted to an area they believe may have been a holding place for a body?

The dogs are a very useful tool for providing indication (not proof) of cadaver. It should also been borne in mind that they alert to dried blood from living humans. I am aware of their capabilities & limitations as the subject of cadaver dogs has been "done to death" on another forum I frequent.
The case of David Guilfoyle is an interesting read due to the open nature of the terrain in which the body had been deposited.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf Page 60 onwards.
The vast area LE have to search for Deorr, combined with the fast-moving creek, provide the various agencies with an incredibly difficult task if a body has been deliberately concealed.
As far as Klein's comment about a holding area is concerned - he said Deorr was never at the campground, so effectively he dismissed the relevance of Chance's alerts IMO.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

So Koios / Misty - do you both think Isaac killed DeOrr? And if so how do you think the day went?

I'm not baiting, I'm just interested why neither of you believe the parents (either or both) are involved somehow.

 

[misty48]

And IR just happened to have those things, killed DeOrr (was it premeditated or an accident?) and buried him with no one noticing a thing? And did such an incredible job that not a trace of DeOrr has been found in the past 15 months?

ETA: All plastic is porous.

All 4 people at the camp had access to a spade (if they knew of its existence) & probably a refuse sack of some sort - not just IR.
The degree to which plastic is permeable depends on several factors, including temperature.

 

[Onebest]

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.

Nope. Not true. IMO

 

[Onebest]

All 4 people at the camp had access to a spade (if they knew of its existence) & probably a refuse sack of some sort - not just IR.
The degree to which plastic is permeable depends on several factors, including temperature.

You are stating this as fact. You have a a link to substantiate this statement? If not, its just your opinion I assume?

 

[The Apparition]

All 4 people at the camp had access to a spade (if they knew of its existence) & probably a refuse sack of some sort - not just IR.
The degree to which plastic is permeable depends on several factors, including temperature.

Just FYI I googled how long it takes to dig a grave by hand and the answer is a long *advertiser censored* time. I found an article (link below) on one of the last manual gravediggers working. This guy uses a sod cutter, PICKAXE, and a shovel and has about 30 years experience, under ideal circumstances he says 5 hours. How long do you think it would take your average out of shape yutz to dig a grave with only a shovel?

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/06/...ge-man-one-of-the-last-to-dig-graves-by-hand/

 

[misty48]

You are stating this as fact. You have a a link to substantiate this statement? If not, its just your opinion I assume?

The spade was in RW's vehicle which was at the campsite along with the 4 people. IR said RW always kept it in his truck. I don't know if VDK had a spade in his truck.

 

[misty48]

So Koios / Misty - do you both think Isaac killed DeOrr? And if so how do you think the day went?

I'm not baiting, I'm just interested why neither of you believe the parents (either or both) are involved somehow.

For my part, I'm not entirely sure anyone actually killed Deorr. It would be libellous to state otherwise. Whether or not concealment of a body took place is a different crime.

 

[KatieLiz]

“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”

http://idahostatejournal.com/member...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

How do you add those tags to the bottom of your messages on here? I've seen people who have quotes that appear at the bottom of all their posts. I want this to be mine.

 

[koios]

So Koios / Misty - do you both think Isaac killed DeOrr? And if so how do you think the day went?

I'm not baiting, I'm just interested why neither of you believe the parents (either or both) are involved somehow.

I believe IR had absolutely nothing to do with it and no knowledge of what happened.

 

[misty48]

Just FYI I googled how long it takes to dig a grave by hand and the answer is a long *advertiser censored* time. I found an article (link below) on one of the last manual gravediggers working. This guy uses a sod cutter, PICKAXE, and a shovel and has about 30 years experience, under ideal circumstances he says 5 hours. How long do you think it would take your average out of shape yutz to dig a grave with only a shovel?

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/06/...ge-man-one-of-the-last-to-dig-graves-by-hand/

Soft soil, a 1m x 0.5m shallow grave, cover it with rocks/stones ,,,,,,about an hour, I reckon.