ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[sarx]

A pack 15 strong is a healthy pack. If they have denned there then that means there is plenty for them to eat (and I think it would have made the news had their food source changed to Human). I'm more concerned whether this was an active den and these people disturbed the den or not. The pups are still using their dens for another few months and this could be problematic.

 

[Mountain]

1. I've never heard of wolves raiding campsites or garbage. Bears, yes. Wolves really do want nothing to do with humans. The smell of a campsite to their sensitive noses would scream HUMAN! GET AWAY! RUN FAST!!
And Idaho is not all that friendly to wolves IMO. Wolves were federally delisted a few years ago and Idaho has an active wolf "management" program. So if there were any indication wolves were bothering a campsite I think the Fish & Game managers would take care of that problem pretty quick.

2. Highly unlikely to the point that I would not even consider it. A baby calf or a goat or a lamb or a deer, sure. But not a little human. I am speaking of a healthy wolf. And the fact that there is a pack of 15 denning nearby says that there most likely aren't any lone or sick wolves around. They would be dispatched by a healthy pack in short order.

3. Generally wolves are hunting elk, deer, caribou, big ungulates (animals with hooves). So when they finally manage to kill one it's not gonna go anywhere and the wolves don't know how to build their own sleds (yet). So they will generally eat right there. But they do sometimes cache food too, for later. Bones especially as they will crack them open for the marrow. And I've seen photos of Arctic wolves and their pups playing with bones, tossing them in the air.

Another thing is that wolves can have multiple dens. So I'd be curious to know if this den the searchers found seemed to be in active use.

I would think there would be some type of sign left over from a wolf attack. I think the predator has 2 legs and duct tape.

 

[travelbug]

No mention of them having an ATV in any of the articles I had read.

The black truck we saw in one picture that a lot of us believe was the parents truck did have an open truck bed in back so it is possible they had brought one up there but no mention anywhere I had read about an ATV being present.

I just reread a news article today where the sheriff mentions that Deorr Sr. was out searching by himself on an ATV. Don't know if he borrowed one or if he brought it with him.

 

[shellbythesea]

If you look up 'East Idaho Cold Cases' on Facebook there is info about other missing cases, but I am not sure who the last missing child was before Deorr.

 

[La Louve]

A pack 15 strong is a healthy pack. If they have denned there then that means there is plenty for them to eat (and I think it would have made the news had their food source changed to Human). I'm more concerned whether this was an active den and these people disturbed the den or not. The pups are still using their dens for another few months and this could be problematic.

That was my thought too, sarx. That's why I'm hoping there are other dens. But yeah, those pups are only a few months old at most.

 

[Hatfield]

1. I've never heard of wolves raiding campsites or garbage. Bears, yes. Wolves really do want nothing to do with humans. The smell of a campsite to their sensitive noses would scream HUMAN! GET AWAY! RUN FAST!!
And Idaho is not all that friendly to wolves IMO. Wolves were federally delisted a few years ago and Idaho has an active wolf "management" program. So if there were any indication wolves were bothering a campsite I think the Fish & Game managers would take care of that problem pretty quick.

2. Highly unlikely to the point that I would not even consider it. A baby calf or a goat or a lamb or a deer, sure. But not a little human. I am speaking of a healthy wolf. And the fact that there is a pack of 15 denning nearby says that there most likely aren't any lone or sick wolves around. They would be dispatched by a healthy pack in short order.

3. Generally wolves are hunting elk, deer, caribou, big ungulates (animals with hooves). So when they finally manage to kill one it's not gonna go anywhere and the wolves don't know how to build their own sleds (yet). So they will generally eat right there. But they do sometimes cache food too, for later. Bones especially as they will crack them open for the marrow. And I've seen photos of Arctic wolves and their pups playing with bones, tossing them in the air.

Another thing is that wolves can have multiple dens. So I'd be curious to know if this den the searchers found seemed to be in active use.

Very very interesting. Thanks so much. I am with you then about not likely the wolves are involved in this case. Their behavior is much different than I would have guessed.

 

[Elainera]

1. I've never heard of wolves raiding campsites or garbage. Bears, yes. Wolves really do want nothing to do with humans. The smell of a campsite to their sensitive noses would scream HUMAN! GET AWAY! RUN FAST!!
And Idaho is not all that friendly to wolves IMO. Wolves were federally delisted a few years ago and Idaho has an active wolf "management" program. So if there were any indication wolves were bothering a campsite I think the Fish & Game managers would take care of that problem pretty quick.

2. Highly unlikely to the point that I would not even consider it. A baby calf or a goat or a lamb or a deer, sure. But not a little human. I am speaking of a healthy wolf. And the fact that there is a pack of 15 denning nearby says that there most likely aren't any lone or sick wolves around. They would be dispatched by a healthy pack in short order.

3. Generally wolves are hunting elk, deer, caribou, big ungulates (animals with hooves). So when they finally manage to kill one it's not gonna go anywhere and the wolves don't know how to build their own sleds (yet). So they will generally eat right there. But they do sometimes cache food too, for later. Bones especially as they will crack them open for the marrow. And I've seen photos of Arctic wolves and their pups playing with bones, tossing them in the air.

Another thing is that wolves can have multiple dens. So I'd be curious to know if this den the searchers found seemed to be in active use.

It's very interesting what you're sharing about wolfs! Thank you!

Question regarding your last sentence - why are you interested in that? Some possibility remaining that they did maybe take him to another den? From what you said so far it seemed you're pretty much ruling wolfs out.

And since we are talking about wolfs and you are very knowledgeable, I want to ask you, are stories about children being raised by wolfs mere myths, or has something like that really happened? If I'm making a fool of myself by asking that, so be it

ETA: I just saw in your other post why you were wondering about other active dens. Now I understand.

 

[rkf]

To my knowledge LE never disclosed that info.

Not sure if this is specific enough, but the sheriff said the remains were deposited while they were searching.

“It’s pretty disappointing. Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area,” says Bowerman.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted

 

[Hatfield]

I just reread a news article today where the sheriff mentions that Deorr Sr. was out searching by himself on an ATV. Don't know if he borrowed one or if he brought it with him.

Thanks for the info about the ATV. I stand corrected about that.

The black truck did have that open truck bed so it is very possible he could have brought one up camping to the area.

The more I think about it, I bet it was his or a relative that brought one rather than a loaner from LE because if LE had an extra one they typically would not allow someone to just take off on it because of potential injury liability reasons. There would be no expectation he would have ATV experience and LE typically would not just take someones word for it that they are experienced driver of one. For liability reasons alone they typically would not let someone ride one of the searchers ATVs or LE ATVS.

If I had to guess now, I would lean towards the black truck bringing an ATV up there. That open bed sure looked like it could carry one and someone was kind enough to point out they saw Ramps near the truck in that picture I saw. Interesting.

 

[La Louve]

Very very interesting. Thanks so much. I am with you then about not likely the wolves are involved in this case. Their behavior is much different than I would have guessed.

You're very welcome. Some Idaho ranchers would disagree with me but wolves are not the big bad monsters they've been made out to be. Many native American tribes actually looked to wolves for how to behave in a group, how to provide for a group, etc. Many tribes even had a "wolf" clan.

As my username alludes, I am passionate about wolves

 

[bluesneakers]

And the other thing about coyotes is that they are much less afraid of humans than wolves. We have whole neighborhoods in the foothills of the Cascades here that are bothered by coyotes where humans have encroached on their territory. In many cities around the US there are now what are known as urban coyotes that live and thrive among humans.

And the sounds of coyotes is something you never forget. I was blessed one time to hear them calling across the canyon walls of Canyon De Chelly in Navajo country. It was like a choir echoing off the sandstone cliffs.

I grew up in those foothills and heard coyotes regularly. I was always afraid of them but I loved those yips and howls.

 

[La Louve]

It's very interesting what you're sharing about wolfs! Thank you!

Question regarding your last sentence - why are you interested in that? Some possibility remaining that they did maybe take him to another den? From what you said so far it seemed you're pretty much ruling wolfs out.

And since we are talking about wolfs and you are very knowledgeable, I want to ask you, are stories about children being raised by wolfs mere myths, or has something like that really happened? If I'm making a fool of myself by asking that, so be it

ETA: I just saw in your other post why you were wondering about other active dens. Now I understand.

Hi Elainera! Nice to see you again.

I was partly concerned to know if the pack is safe, but also just generally curious. It's rare that the searchers came across a den to begin with and I think I read that someone reported they ran off a wolf while they were searching. So just my student-of-wolves nature wants to know more.

As far as stories about children being raised by wolves, I don't know but it sure wouldn't surprise me. In my experience "myths" tend to be based on distant murky facts so I can't rule it out. I always get a little annoyed though, when I read posts like "were you raised by wolves?" implying that a person is somehow a savage. Wolves are very highly ordered creatures. It takes a great step to hunt and live cooperatively. There aren't really all that many species that do and the ones that do are all highly intelligent. You could do a lot worse than to be raised by wolves, IMO. Reading WS for a few years has certainly reinforced that!

 

[sarx]

You're very welcome. Some Idaho ranchers would disagree with me but wolves are not the big bad monsters they've been made out to be. Many native American tribes actually looked to wolves for how to behave in a group, how to provide for a group, etc. Many tribes even had a "wolf" clan.

As my username alludes, I am passionate about wolves

Most Idaho ranchers...... 😁 (as well as a few other states in that region)

 

[Hatfield]

I grew up in those foothills and heard coyotes regularly. I was always afraid of them but I loved those yips and howls.

I have to laugh because I called the sound "Yelps" and you called them "Yips" and yes, that is exactly what they sound like. LOL
They do throw in an occasional "howl" or two as well but they are very distinct sound and a much more high pitched sound than like a wolf howl.

And they are LOUD and it is somewhat scary, yes. Especially when a whole pack of them sound off.

 

[sarx]

I have to laugh because I called the sound "Yelps" and you called them "Yips" and yes, that is exactly what they sound like. LOL
They do throw in an occasional "howl" or two as well but they are very distinct sound and a much more high pitched sound than like a wolf howl.

And they are LOUD and it is somewhat scary, yes. Especially when a whole pack of them sound off.

It is always so much fun to be fast asleep in a tent and have them go off with their little yip fests.

 

[La Louve]

Most Idaho ranchers...... �� (as well as a few other states in that region)

Well, I was trying to be charitable

There are some enlightened ranchers out there.

But the "shoot-shovel-shut up" mentality is still going strong among a lot of ranchers, sad to say.

 

[La Louve]

It is always so much fun to be fast asleep in a tent and have them go off with their little yip fests.

Coyote parties

 

[sarx]

Coyote parties

I love listening to them, just not a fan of any wildlife wakeups next to my tent! Had a bear last week cruise through. Dog put an end to that in a hurry.

 

[katydid23]

Random thought...does anyone recall if the parents were specifically walking the entire time or might have brought along an ATV camping? It's not uncommon when camping in areas like that. I do recall seeing ramps off to the side of one of the trucks, just curious if it we know that is was also there camping.

Dad does have an ATV in some of the pictures of him searching.

 

[sarx]

Dad does have an ATV in some of the pictures of him searching.

Did anyone ever find pix of their camp set up?