ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

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Morning coffee ramblings.............


I understand that all theories regarding this case have to be on the table at this point, including the theory that he was carried off by a wild predator. Here is the problem I have with that.

I've gone camping and ATV riding hundreds of times in the last 25 some-odd years. I live way up in the mountains next to a National Forest, and on any given day, I can use that forest like a big playground. The forest covers more than 3/4 million acres.

Although there are a few established campground areas, most of the time people will simply pull up in a vehicle, clear a spot, and camp wherever they feel like. That's pretty much the way I've always done it too, depending on where I wanted to go ride quads that weekend. There have been plenty of times when I was camping out there and didn't see or hear another individual for the entire weekend. It's remote, it's isolated, and it's rugged.

When you pull up to ANY campsite and start unloading and making noise, the animals that were lurking in that area are going to flee, especially the larger animals such as deer, elk, cougars, wolves, bobcats,coyotes, bears and javelinas. To this day, I have yet to pull up and begin unpacking my pickup while a bear or a mountain lion sits a few hundred yards away in the shade watching me. Once you do get unloaded and unpacked, and decide to walk around and "explore" the area, you aren't going to find any large animals anywhere near you, they've left the area. The squirrels.....hmmm...yeah, they may hang around....but consider the size of their brains, not to mention they have a safe haven 50' off the ground.

The entire premise of hunting is based on the fact that wild animals don't just hang around like family pets, while you take pot shots at them. You have to go out and find them. You have to sneak up on them. The only way they'll come to you is if you are camouflaged and hidden.

With all of that said above, this same situation would apply to Deorr and his family. In this case we have lots of activity, 4 grown adults and a young child, making noise, doors slamming, people laughing and walking around. The busier and noisier the campsite, the more likely the animals are going to leave the area immediately. They were there for awhile before Deorr vanished, further exasperating the situation.

Taken completely out of this equation would be the part about this so-called predator, seemingly unafraid of humans, running across flat ground, snatching the child up in his jaws, running back across flat land, and disappearing into the brush while two grown adults see and hear absolutely nothing. I've seen lots of bears, but I've never seen one capable of doing that. Mountain lions are so elusive you hardly ever see one, even from a distance. I've managed to catch pictures of them on my game cameras, but have never come across one face-to-face.

I highly doubt that Deorr was snatched up by a wild animal in the beginning of this saga, but I have little doubt that those same wild animals will find him after being alone out in the woods for 13 days and counting.

They need to keep searching and get volunteers to scour the woods in an attempt to find him before the predators do. Forget about the "trained" searchers and the evidence trampling B.S.--- just get out there and walk around aimlessly in a one mile radius. Otherwise, all they WILL find is a camo jacket and cowboy boots.
 
Originally Posted by La Louve View Post
BBM Unless something has changed recently, the last I read was that they had NOT ruled out a wild animal attack. As of the Lemhi County Sheriff FB page's most recent press release:
"The Sheriff’s Office will keep a presence in the Timber Creek area, continuing to search for clues, and has not ruled out abduction by strangers or wild animals."

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCounty...Office?fref=nf
You are absolutely correct. My apologies. Until that one, this is the common theme I recall reading....

"After more than a week of searching Stone Reservoir, Penner said he feels confident that they will not find the boy there, but says they still plan to keep checking it daily.

He says they have looked into the possibility that DeOrr may have been taken by a wild animal. On Monday, search crews spotted a wolf chasing a couple deer in the area, but they have not found any evidence of an animal attack."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...riffs-office-calling-in-air-support/30466883/

Irony is each one of them keeps saying something different than the other on different issues. :facepalm:

Those two quotes aren't contradictory imo, just different standards of evidence. The first one says they haven't been able to prove that an animal attack happened and the second one says they haven't been able to prove that an animal attack didn't happen. Both can be true at the same time. There isn't really any way of proving the latter save for proving that something else happened imo.
 
Search dogs led authorities to Stone Reservoir, but no trace of the missing toddler showed up. On Tuesday, the Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office scaled back their search. They report that the case is going in another direction. Searchers remain in the area, however.

http://www.examiner.com/article/deo...gs-thrown-off-search-of-missing-idaho-toddler

Edit: I was told that this link from the examiner might not be approved by WS? I have no idea so if the mods want to edit it, go ahead.
 
Dingoes are actually their own unique species, not descended from dogs or wolves.

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/wildlife/2014/04/dingo-declared-a-separate-species

I thought about coyotes last night. I have seen them lure a 100 pound labrador to the edge of the woods and then all of a sudden a bunch of coyotes came out from the sides and tried to flank the dog and get him away to kill him. A dog that probably outweighed a coyote by twice as much! Anyway, I could picture a coyote at the edge of the camping area, sees Deorr and starts wagging his tail, Deorr sees a "puppy" and goes running after it and.......

ETA one problem with the coyote theory though is they are noisy, especially with a kill. Lots of howling and "talking".


Oh yeah, I have those all around my house/property ( at night) and they scare the crap outta me! I think they would definitely eat a kid, but maybe its because I am so scared of them..lol I hear them late at night and I swear it sounds like a hundred of them running by the house :eek:
 
Search dogs led authorities to Stone Reservoir, but no trace of the missing toddler showed up. On Tuesday, the Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office scaled back their search. They report that the case is going in another direction. Searchers remain in the area, however.

http://www.examiner.com/article/deo...gs-thrown-off-search-of-missing-idaho-toddler

Another direction meaning abducted or someone close is covering something up IMO

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
Even when the dingo did it, clothing was found...

And tons of blood. And the mother saw a dingo leaving the tent dragging something. Drag marks, paw prints and blood was every where. People heard the dingo growl right before the child was found missing.

6 years later ...

True but it did take years

Not true. The baby's torn and bloody jumpsuit was found a few weeks later near a dingo lair.

And the other thing about coyotes is that they are much less afraid of humans than wolves. We have whole neighborhoods in the foothills of the Cascades here that are bothered by coyotes where humans have encroached on their territory. In many cities around the US there are now what are known as urban coyotes that live and thrive among humans.

And the sounds of coyotes is something you never forget. I was blessed one time to hear them calling across the canyon walls of Canyon De Chelly in Navajo country. It was like a choir echoing off the sandstone cliffs.

I regularly encounter coyotes in the canyon where I run and occasionally in my very residential neighborhood. I've never seen more than one at a time but in the canyon, which I've often run at dusk, I hear packs yipping and howling. Once, a large pack was split into two, all howling and the only way we could get back to the car was through the middle of the two parts of the packs. I was very scared! It sounded like 9-10 coyotes. There were other people in the park who seemed unnerved as well.

Sarx makes a ton of sense when saying that a wild animal attack is much more likely close to a residential area than far out into the wilderness. But given that they can be stealthy and run fast and far, I won;t rule it out.

The lack of blood bothers me though.

And I still can't get over the fact that someone would take a toddler camping in camo. I mean for goodness sake, that is clothing meant to obscure the person wearing it and blend in with the foliage. How could such clothing ever be appropriate for a toddler in the wild?
 
1. I've never heard of wolves raiding campsites or garbage. Bears, yes. Wolves really do want nothing to do with humans. The smell of a campsite to their sensitive noses would scream HUMAN! GET AWAY! RUN FAST!!
And Idaho is not all that friendly to wolves IMO. Wolves were federally delisted a few years ago and Idaho has an active wolf "management" program. So if there were any indication wolves were bothering a campsite I think the Fish & Game managers would take care of that problem pretty quick.

2. Highly unlikely to the point that I would not even consider it. A baby calf or a kid (baby goat) or a lamb or a deer, sure. But not a little human. I am speaking of a healthy wolf. And the fact that there is a pack of 15 denning nearby says that there most likely aren't any lone or sick wolves around. They would be dispatched by a healthy pack in short order.

3. Generally wolves are hunting elk, deer, caribou, big ungulates (animals with hooves). So when they finally manage to kill one it's not gonna go anywhere and the wolves don't know how to build their own sleds (yet). So they will generally eat right there. But they do sometimes cache food too, for later. Bones especially as they will crack them open for the marrow. And I've seen photos of Arctic wolves and their pups playing with bones, tossing them in the air.

Another thing is that wolves can have multiple dens. So I'd be curious to know if this den the searchers found seemed to be in active use.


Thank you, good post :)

My issue with him being consumed by an animal of any kind is that I think there would be some bodily fluids/debris that was left behind that the dogs and cops would have found, not to mention some bit of clothing or boot/boots somewhere and there is just nada zip zilch of this kid to be found. I understand that there was a baby ate by a dingo but iirc that was an infant in a onsie or not much clothing, I dont think the dingo would have ate the boots, would it?
 
Morning coffee ramblings.............


I understand that all theories regarding this case have to be on the table at this point, including the theory that he was carried off by a wild predator. Here is the problem I have with that.

I've gone camping and ATV riding hundreds of times in the last 25 some-odd years. I live way up in the mountains next to a National Forest, and on any given day, I can use that forest like a big playground. The forest covers more than 3/4 million acres.

Although there are a few established campground areas, most of the time people will simply pull up in a vehicle, clear a spot, and camp wherever they feel like. That's pretty much the way I've always done it too, depending on where I wanted to go ride quads that weekend. There have been plenty of times when I was camping out there and didn't see or hear another individual for the entire weekend. It's remote, it's isolated, and it's rugged.

When you pull up to ANY campsite and start unloading and making noise, the animals that were lurking in that area are going to flee, especially the larger animals such as deer, elk, cougars, wolves, bobcats,coyotes, bears and javelinas. To this day, I have yet to pull up and begin unpacking my pickup while a bear or a mountain lion sits a few hundred yards away in the shade watching me. Once you do get unloaded and unpacked, and decide to walk around and "explore" the area, you aren't going to find any large animals anywhere near you, they've left the area. The squirrels.....hmmm...yeah, they may hang around....but consider the size of their brains, not to mention they have a safe haven 50' off the ground.

The entire premise of hunting is based on the fact that wild animals don't just hang around like family pets, while you take pot shots at them. You have to go out and find them. You have to sneak up on them. The only way they'll come to you is if you are camouflaged and hidden.

With all of that said above, this same situation would apply to Deorr and his family. In this case we have lots of activity, 4 grown adults and a young child, making noise, doors slamming, people laughing and walking around. The busier and noisier the campsite, the more likely the animals are going to leave the area immediately. They were there for awhile before Deorr vanished, further exasperating the situation.

Taken completely out of this equation would be the part about this so-called predator, seemingly unafraid of humans, running across flat ground, snatching the child up in his jaws, running back across flat land, and disappearing into the brush while two grown adults see and hear absolutely nothing. I've seen lots of bears, but I've never seen one capable of doing that. Mountain lions are so elusive you hardly ever see one, even from a distance. I've managed to catch pictures of them on my game cameras, but have never come across one face-to-face.

I highly doubt that Deorr was snatched up by a wild animal in the beginning of this saga, but I have little doubt that those same wild animals will find him after being alone out in the woods for 13 days and counting.

They need to keep searching and get volunteers to scour the woods in an attempt to find him before the predators do. Forget about the "trained" searchers and the evidence trampling B.S.--- just get out there and walk around aimlessly in a one mile radius. Otherwise, all they WILL find is a camo jacket and cowboy boots.

I tend to agree that it is "unlikely" around the immediate camping area however I would have to politely disagree if the boy managed to walk/crawl off on his own and managed to get some distance away from that campground.

An isolated very small child alone in the woods would be very enticing for a large predator such as Idaho has (Cougars, Bears, Wolves). Especially if the boy started to make crying sounds which may sound like a wounded animal to a predator and could actually attract the predator to the boy.

Linked below is just 1 example of a small boy being attacked while 10 feet ahead of another group of people.

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mate...lion-that-attacked-boy-cupertino-found-killed

We have already had other examples given with links of people who had gotten attacked and a simple google search of "cougar attack" provides many more examples.

I agree it is a rare event but it is a possibility nonetheless and I think that is all that most people are saying.
 
Family members have stated that DeOrr's eye color is brown with the exception of one person claiming that they occasionally appear hazel.



quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by SleuthMom

Very important question, what is Deorr's eye colour?





Ohhhh...THANKS, I spaced that! Now I see why that is an IMPORTANT question :)
 
To answer the earlier question, you know I don't like to speculate, especially being that we rarely have the whole story. That being said, I would go back to ground zero and start over. I don't know what directions they went in besides the water, but I would go out in all directions. Sometimes the obvious is not actually the right area. With what we know that's about all you can do. I would also leave the ATVs out. They are great for clearing a road (as long as you aren't worried about destroying tracks or other evidence) and for getting a perimeter set up and getting searchers out a distance quickly. For the purpose of searching for what would sadly now be a deceased small child if he is out there they are not top on my list. Not top when looking for a live child either, can't hear small muffled sounds and it is hard to search thoroughly on them.

I agree, while wheeled vehicles and horses are useful in some parts of a missing person search, I wish people would just get walking. Start at the last known location and radiate out from there, in a slow, determined, methodical manner, with a walking stick to push aside low-lying branches and other ground debris, and poke behind and under downed timber. Of course, this takes either a lot of people or a lot of time, sometimes both.

If little Deorr is in the area, I think he could be a lot farther out from camp than expected.

Wish there was some solid confirmation on the camp situation--who drove, when did they arrive, details on camp setup, etc. Is this information purposely left vague because something other than a normal camping trip was taking place?
 
Does anyone know if this report is accurate that the water in the creek near their campsite runs TOWARD the reservoir? If so, then this totally eliminates the creek for me because it means only 1/2 mile of creek is possible.

I kept thinking the creek ran AWAY from the reservoir and thought their campsite was downstream from the reservoir. It sounds like it is upstream from it which means water dumps into the reservoir and only 1/2 mile away.

"The family's campsite sat approximately 40 yards from a fast-moving creek -- four to six feet in width and about a foot deep -- that spills into the Timber Creek Reservoir, a half mile from where the toddler was last seen."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/2...den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/
 
The family were camping about 40 meters from a fast-flowing creek that empties into the Timber Creek Reservoir.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-not-one-clue-whereabouts.html#ixzz3gomT1mid

they did search the 15-wolf den...

and I feel dumb too, what's the importance of his eye color again? in the pics they look brown. mom's more hazel, dad's brown...

it was important to me only because I was wrong, but I think I had assumed that his eyes were blue...I thought the posters only mentioned different hair color possibilities?? I need to go look at the poster again..and get a lot more coffee :/
 
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