Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #57

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
nyvictoria said:
It blows my mind!! What is he doing there all day every day? Did they bring in a cot for him?
Click to expand...

Just trying to see the “other” side of this and I think there are a few possibilities, all with varying levels of realistically happening.
He could have some other clients currently detained and isn’t meeting with just Lori every time he goes. He could be meeting with just her and the sheer size and complexity (paired with his lesser experience in criminal defense) means the in-person time takes longer when he does visit her. I tend to think the jail limitations in how he has to meet with her, and the voluminous amount of digital evidence, does make it harder to meet with your client and trying to both look at the same thing while trying to share a laptop and work with glass in between you. I know Scott Reisch and others basically said “this is normal dude, you’d know that if you actual did criminal defense work before” when Means was telling the Court about the very difficult constrictions. I also know that various Supreme Courts have talked about the physical limitations in detention centers due to COVID and how they can unfairly impact someone preparing for a trial....but this has been discussed ad nauseam before so I won’t bore you all again with more of it.

Besides that, and despite what many think of Means and his experience, I myself think he genuinely cares about his client and ensuring she has a fair trial. I think this, again combined with his more limited defense experience, could mean he’s just spending hat seems like a ton of time there. (I believe he truly cares - regardless of innocence or guilt of his client - based on things he’s said on CourtTV and on his own social media, he seems to hold some strong views about how the government needs to be checked and that everyone does deserve a fair trial if and when they’re accused of a crime. I also think this is a really good perspective for any defense attorney but that’s besides the main points here.

It wasn’t until I filed some records requests seeking previous cases from all the attorneys (defense and the state, I mean) in this case that I realized Means, who has never just done defense work, that he’s done quite a bit more than I think most expect. I know there’s always been this idea circulated everywhere that he’s never done defense work or handled a felony case....but that isn’t accurate at all. This is also how I found out that the deputy prosecutor has handled a ton of divorce and family cases, which I thought was odd, but I try to remind myself of the small-town perspective and how that likely affects this. Prior too, IMHO, (who has much more experience than everyone else just in terms of how long he’s practiced) has handled all sorts of defense work & has been very successful for some of his clients in the past IMO.

But - to your original question - I think it’s really the sheer size of this case, the extensive to/form travel time from where Means lives to the detention center, combined with his lesser defense experience that are creating what we see as someone being there all the time for very long periods of time. That’s just my opinion on why he’s there so often though.
 
nyvictoria said:
It blows my mind!! What is he doing there all day every day? Did they bring in a cot for him?
Click to expand...
@MTW2011 did a decent job answering. So Ill just give my take on things.

The amount of time he spends does seem excessive. Though he may have other clients, so there’s no way to check if it’s all with LVD. He is entitled to spend whatever time he deems necessary with his clients preparing. Though again, it does seem excessive.

I’m in no way defending MM or LVD, but I would hope that everything gets done properly to avoid any unnecessary hiccups or dismissals.

All jmo moo imo
 
887sMtreme said:
The threat I’m referring to isn’t as direct as that, though now you mention it, I cringe a bit. I was referring instead to the possibility that if Nate is asked about his sources, he may be pressured to reveal them, which as a journalist myself, he would not want to do. No source in the future would ever want to talk to him on background or in confidence again, because they wouldn’t trust him to keep silent about their identity other than maybe to his editor. That would effectively ruin his career. That’s the threat I meant. And that’s the sort of thing the Reporters Committee defends journalists and publishers against.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the standard threat when the prosecution tries to call a reporter in a case, but I don't see how that would really apply to a change of venue hearing for the defense. Sources don't really seem to matter for that.
 
MTW2011 said:
Just trying to see the “other” side of this and I think there are a few possibilities, all with varying levels of realistically happening.
He could have some other clients currently detained and isn’t meeting with just Lori every time he goes. He could be meeting with just her and the sheer size and complexity (paired with his lesser experience in criminal defense) means the in-person time takes longer when he does visit her. I tend to think the jail limitations in how he has to meet with her, and the voluminous amount of digital evidence, does make it harder to meet with your client and trying to both look at the same thing while trying to share a laptop and work with glass in between you. I know Scott Reisch and others basically said “this is normal dude, you’d know that if you actual did criminal defense work before” when Means was telling the Court about the very difficult constrictions. I also know that various Supreme Courts have talked about the physical limitations in detention centers due to COVID and how they can unfairly impact someone preparing for a trial....but this has been discussed ad nauseam before so I won’t bore you all again with more of it.

Besides that, and despite what many think of Means and his experience, I myself think he genuinely cares about his client and ensuring she has a fair trial. I think this, again combined with his more limited defense experience, could mean he’s just spending hat seems like a ton of time there. (I believe he truly cares - regardless of innocence or guilt of his client - based on things he’s said on CourtTV and on his own social media, he seems to hold some strong views about how the government needs to be checked and that everyone does deserve a fair trial if and when they’re accused of a crime. I also think this is a really good perspective for any defense attorney but that’s besides the main points here.

It wasn’t until I filed some records requests seeking previous cases from all the attorneys (defense and the state, I mean) in this case that I realized Means, who has never just done defense work, that he’s done quite a bit more than I think most expect. I know there’s always been this idea circulated everywhere that he’s never done defense work or handled a felony case....but that isn’t accurate at all. This is also how I found out that the deputy prosecutor has handled a ton of divorce and family cases, which I thought was odd, but I try to remind myself of the small-town perspective and how that likely affects this. Prior too, IMHO, (who has much more experience than everyone else just in terms of how long he’s practiced) has handled all sorts of defense work & has been very successful for some of his clients in the past IMO.

But - to your original question - I think it’s really the sheer size of this case, the extensive to/form travel time from where Means lives to the detention center, combined with his lesser defense experience that are creating what we see as someone being there all the time for very long periods of time. That’s just my opinion on why he’s there so often though.
Click to expand...

Whether he spends 5 hours there or 5,000, it's irrelevant to me. I don't really have an issue with MM but he's easily the least qualified involved whether he's tried felony cases or not. He seems like a nice guy and he probably does genuinely care but that doesn't mean anything to me. I agree with a lot of what you have to say but we're all speculating as to why he's there that much. If it breaks down to the sheer size of the case, it's a poor game plan in my opinion. The limitations and restrictions of the jail are well documented and we know there is an unbelievable amount of information to sift through. I would think he would want to spend those hours in an area free of disruptions and limitations and then carve out time with LV to discuss and review pertinent information and strategize. If you're going to say work 80 hours a week on this case, I'd rather spend 60-70 hours of that in an area without limitations/distractions to pore over the information. That could be in the hotel across the street and then spend the other 10-20 hours a week meeting with LV. I mean, MM is the defense attorney.
 
pizzaman12 said:
Whether he spends 5 hours there or 5,000, it's irrelevant to me. I don't really have an issue with MM but he's easily the least qualified involved whether he's tried felony cases or not. He seems like a nice guy and he probably does genuinely care but that doesn't mean anything to me. I agree with a lot of what you have to say but we're all speculating as to why he's there that much. If it breaks down to the sheer size of the case, it's a poor game plan in my opinion. The limitations and restrictions of the jail are well documented and we know there is an unbelievable amount of information to sift through. I would think he would want to spend those hours in an area free of disruptions and limitations and then carve out time with LV to discuss and review pertinent information and strategize. If you're going to say work 80 hours a week on this case, I'd rather spend 60-70 hours of that in an area without limitations/distractions to pore over the information. That could be in the hotel across the street and then spend the other 10-20 hours a week meeting with LV. I mean, MM is the defense attorney.
Click to expand...

I can see that. Respectfully though, I care a bit if the prosecution team has more experience in water rights/environmental and divorce cases than homicide cases, and if the prosecutor they brought in doesn’t even advertise herself as handling homicide cases but instead things like election law. Those things concern a bit, but that’s just my perspective. thankfully I’m sure their case will be strong enough with the evidence they’ve got but still.

editing to add in case more are curious - I went a bit overboard with the records I got back available from my search with the helpful court clerks.....the deputy prosecutor had some 50-something active cases right now.... less than 10 were criminal cases, the rest were varying things of family, paternity, divorce, guardianship, etc.
I myself was curious how/why a prosecutor could be retained and working on other cases like that, but I learned this too can vary from place to place, and he just happens to be one who takes other cases on top of their prosecutor's office caseload.
 
Last edited:
MTW2011 said:
I can see that. Respectfully though, I care a bit if the prosecution team has more experience in water rights/environmental and divorce cases than homicide cases, and if the prosecutor they brought in doesn’t even advertise herself as handling homicide cases but instead things like election law. Those things concern a bit, but that’s just my perspective. thankfully I’m sure their case will be strong enough with the evidence they’ve got but still.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with that. I stated back when JP & MM were trying to get RW off the case. I think you would have seen someone who is WAY more qualified. Why you'd request that is beyond me. It's as though they think RW off the case means their clients go free. It didn't surprise me from MM but did from JP because he's done a solid job from the beginning.

I was more referring to the reasoning and strategy. We're talking about sifting through terabytes of information (paper, audio, video). I know zero people who would say that they concentrate and do a better job in a cramped jail cell with cameras with additional restrictions, limitations and distractions. Organization alone would be a nightmare. Like a surgeon telling me they do better work on a Mardi Gras float than in a controlled environment with the proper tools and resources.

I'll say that I've never been in the boat of him being there for movie rights, etc...but this definitely perplexes me. You think JP spends 40 hours a week visiting CD? No way and I bet he's not at home with his feet up drinking a beer right now.
 
pizzaman12 said:
I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with that. I stated back when JP & MM were trying to get RW off the case. I think you would have seen someone who is WAY more qualified. Why you'd request that is beyond me. It's as though they think RW off the case means their clients go free. It didn't surprise me from MM but did from JP because he's done a solid job from the beginning.

I was more referring to the reasoning and strategy. We're talking about sifting through terabytes of information (paper, audio, video). I know zero people who would say that they concentrate and do a better job in a cramped jail cell with cameras with additional restrictions, limitations and distractions. Organization alone would be a nightmare. Like a surgeon telling me they do better work on a Mardi Gras float than in a controlled environment with the proper tools and resources.

I'll say that I've never been in the boat of him being there for movie rights, etc...but this definitely perplexes me. You think JP spends 40 hours a week visiting CD? No way and I bet he's not at home with his feet up drinking a beer right now.
Click to expand...

I think we have so many of the same thoughts so I REALLY hope my comments made it seem otherwise. Especially since tone is difficult to convey over plain text as it is.
You’re right about JP. I also think there might be some element that MM is taking on more, even though their clients aren’t the same person, and JP maybe utilizing more of Means’ willingness and/or ability to be there more often. Who knows for sure (besides they themselves).
Prior himself has more than twice the active criminal cases than the prosecutors right now, (some armed burglaries, drug possession with intent to sell, among some other things IIRC) too, for whatever that’s worth.
 
Last edited:
MTW2011 said:
Just trying to see the “other” side of this and I think there are a few possibilities, all with varying levels of realistically happening.
He could have some other clients currently detained and isn’t meeting with just Lori every time he goes. He could be meeting with just her and the sheer size and complexity (paired with his lesser experience in criminal defense) means the in-person time takes longer when he does visit her. I tend to think the jail limitations in how he has to meet with her, and the voluminous amount of digital evidence, does make it harder to meet with your client and trying to both look at the same thing while trying to share a laptop and work with glass in between you. I know Scott Reisch and others basically said “this is normal dude, you’d know that if you actual did criminal defense work before” when Means was telling the Court about the very difficult constrictions. I also know that various Supreme Courts have talked about the physical limitations in detention centers due to COVID and how they can unfairly impact someone preparing for a trial....but this has been discussed ad nauseam before so I won’t bore you all again with more of it.

Besides that, and despite what many think of Means and his experience, I myself think he genuinely cares about his client and ensuring she has a fair trial. I think this, again combined with his more limited defense experience, could mean he’s just spending hat seems like a ton of time there. (I believe he truly cares - regardless of innocence or guilt of his client - based on things he’s said on CourtTV and on his own social media, he seems to hold some strong views about how the government needs to be checked and that everyone does deserve a fair trial if and when they’re accused of a crime. I also think this is a really good perspective for any defense attorney but that’s besides the main points here.

It wasn’t until I filed some records requests seeking previous cases from all the attorneys (defense and the state, I mean) in this case that I realized Means, who has never just done defense work, that he’s done quite a bit more than I think most expect. I know there’s always been this idea circulated everywhere that he’s never done defense work or handled a felony case....but that isn’t accurate at all. This is also how I found out that the deputy prosecutor has handled a ton of divorce and family cases, which I thought was odd, but I try to remind myself of the small-town perspective and how that likely affects this. Prior too, IMHO, (who has much more experience than everyone else just in terms of how long he’s practiced) has handled all sorts of defense work & has been very successful for some of his clients in the past IMO.

But - to your original question - I think it’s really the sheer size of this case, the extensive to/form travel time from where Means lives to the detention center, combined with his lesser defense experience that are creating what we see as someone being there all the time for very long periods of time. That’s just my opinion on why he’s there so often though.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your explanation. I’m sure you’re right about the volume of discovery materials. I just hope he’s not just wasting time, leaving Lori open to an appeal down the road.
 
pizzaman12 said:
I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with that. I stated back when JP & MM were trying to get RW off the case. I think you would have seen someone who is WAY more qualified. Why you'd request that is beyond me. It's as though they think RW off the case means their clients go free. It didn't surprise me from MM but did from JP because he's done a solid job from the beginning.

I was more referring to the reasoning and strategy. We're talking about sifting through terabytes of information (paper, audio, video). I know zero people who would say that they concentrate and do a better job in a cramped jail cell with cameras with additional restrictions, limitations and distractions. Organization alone would be a nightmare. Like a surgeon telling me they do better work on a Mardi Gras float than in a controlled environment with the proper tools and resources.

I'll say that I've never been in the boat of him being there for movie rights, etc...but this definitely perplexes me. You think JP spends 40 hours a week visiting CD? No way and I bet he's not at home with his feet up drinking a beer right now.
Click to expand...
Back when MM had his blow up about not having enough privacy with his client, it was granted that he could have time with his client face to face in a different room (maybe someone has this link handy). So he does have a little more freedom to discuss things pertaining to this case with LVD.

ETA the link for the news article discussing this. Lori Vallow Daybell will not get a cell phone in jail, judge rules - East Idaho News
 
Last edited:
SleuthD-o-doubleg said:
Back when MM had his blow up about not having enough privacy with his client, it was granted that he could have time with his client face to face in a different room (maybe someone has this link handy). So he does have a little more freedom to discuss things pertaining to this case with LVD.

ETA the link for the news article discussing this. Lori Vallow Daybell will not get a cell phone in jail, judge rules - East Idaho News
Click to expand...

oh yeah! (Most of this is right in the link you shared) That was the same room that he was allegedly denied to use over multiple months because of COVID precautions. And that room has cameras that can record video but apparently don’t record/or can be disabled from recording audio. They offered to use software on the cameras block portions of the camera video feed so that privileged materials cannot be seen by jail staff, and I guess they’ve been doing that if he was using the room to meet with her or anyone else.
 
carbuff said:
Yeah, that's the standard threat when the prosecution tries to call a reporter in a case, but I don't see how that would really apply to a change of venue hearing for the defense. Sources don't really seem to matter for that.
Click to expand...
True, and I may be over-reacting, but it opens a door that, IMO, should not be touched, let alone opened.
 
nyvictoria said:
It blows my mind!! What is he doing there all day every day? Did they bring in a cot for him?
Click to expand...


Over inflated ego meets over inflated ego IMO. It appears he’s a good match for her needs. That melt down he had over- line word spacing - was kind of a precursor to my opinion of him. He picks the strangest battles. Like correcting the judge to call the murder Lori , Mrs Daybell.

moo
 
Is anyone safely going to check to see if Grand jury is really meeting tomorrow. Not encouraging anyone to go real life but with no one reporting this but Court TV just wondering if anyone local could tell if it's true..delete if not allowed..thank you.
 
Nosurprise said:
Is anyone safely going to check to see if Grand jury is really meeting tomorrow. Not encouraging anyone to go real life but with no one reporting this but Court TV just wondering if anyone local could tell if it's true..delete if not allowed..thank you.
Click to expand...
Depending on how the day goes tomorrow, I may have time to drive by. If I do I will update everyone here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 163 more.
Total: 2,413 (members: 164, guests: 2,249)

Online statistics

Members online
164
Guests online
2,249
Total visitors
2,413
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
605,224
Messages
18,184,343
Members
233,275
Latest member
Crowskullsearch33
Back
Top