Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 #6

[BigAl16]

Duplicate

 

[PheonixWolf]

But restrained by local Pd. And authorities.

I get that the FBI is involved and appreciate that. However. The authority in this case is the Rexburg pd. They can send the fbi away if they want. This is their case. They are only asking for some help.

My belief. Is that if the FBI were able to fully prosecute this case based on a ruling by a judge in Idaho. We would no longer be wondering.

 

[Idaholocal]

Your comparison is good, in principle. In reality, my thought about a patriarch was much like the comment from, I think IdahoLocal (who I believe is an active believing Mormon and thus more in tune than I would be) when he or she said that the patriarch's are so generic in what they say and you only go to him once in what is kind of a rite of passage, but I suspect many don't take it that seriously or attribute great skills at fortune telling or seeing the future to them, regardless of what official doctrine would tell you to believe.

yes I’m an active member. I think most members put a lot of weight on them, actually, and rely on them in times of decision making. the role of patriarch is promising future blessings conditioned on your faithfulness. I can see the parallels of seeing the future type thing and yes I agree with you that the difference between mainstream member and fringe can be fuzzy. Lori seems even more out there than Chad but both would fit in on Sunday if they didn’t talk about it. We discussed this all a few threads back actually.

 

[PheonixWolf]

Thank you good sir.

Then again I ask. What’s the value and should it be disregarded in this case? Thank you! And thank you for being here

 

[PheonixWolf]

Your comparison is good, in principle. In reality, my thought about a patriarch was much like the comment from, I think IdahoLocal (who I believe is an active believing Mormon and thus more in tune than I would be) when he or she said that the patriarch's are so generic in what they say and you only go to him once in what is kind of a rite of passage, but I suspect many don't take it that seriously or attribute great skills at fortune telling or seeing the future to them, regardless of what official doctrine would tell you to believe.

So. A church sanctioned astrology reader basically? Is this why ther are groups that tend towards more personal revelation in your view?

 

[BigAl16]

But restrained by local Pd. And authorities.

I get that the FBI is involved and appreciate that. However. The authority in this case is the Rexburg pd. They can send the fbi away if they want. This is their case. They are only asking for some help.

I'm no expert, but don't think they can ask the FBI to help if they don't have reason to believe that a federal crime has been committed or a state line crossed in committing the crime. If the crime passes muster for the FBI to come in, I'm not sure that they can unilaterally throw them out either.

 

[PheonixWolf]

yes I’m an active member. I think most members put a lot of weight on them, actually, and rely on them in times of decision making. the role of patriarch is promising future blessings conditioned on your faithfulness. I can see the parallels of seeing the future type thing and yes I agree with you that the difference between mainstream member and fringe can be fuzzy. Lori seems even more out there than Chad but both would fit in on Sunday if they didn’t talk about it. We discussed this all a few threads back actually.

Why is it fuzzy? True or not?

 

[BigAl16]

So. A church sanctioned astrology reader basically? Is this why ther are groups that tend towards more personal revelation in your view?

I think that's possible.

What I can say for sure is that if you take a group of people from two different groups. One group that their dogma includes a fortune telling function as a belief and one that has no such explicit belief, that if you were claiming some super duper ability to see the future, you'd be likely to find more followers in group 1 than in group 2.

 

[txl]

yes I’m an active member. I think most members put a lot of weight on them, actually, and rely on them in times of decision making. the role of patriarch is promising future blessings conditioned on your faithfulness. I can see the parallels of seeing the future type thing and yes I agree with you that the difference between mainstream member and fringe can be fuzzy. Lori seems even more out there than Chad but both would fit in on Sunday if they didn’t talk about it. We discussed this all a few threads back actually.

Perhaps. To believe that someone could tell another's future would go against the LDS first principle of "free-agency". I do not believe a majority of Patriarch's would consider themselves fortune tellers; this is of course my personal belief based on experience, limited as it is.

The role of the Patriarch in LDS theology, as I understand it to be, will have very little predictive power in finding the missing children.

 

[Colorado303]

I would reply, but I'm not sure what part of me saying melatonin isn't federally controlled (so it wasn't JJ's federally controlled rx) provoked this. Maybe nothing? Jmo

Nothing at all. I was just noting that while it would be easy for whoever’s caring for JJ to get melatonin to help him sleep, and not that hard to get stronger prescribed sleep aids replacing the adderall would be trickier.

 

[PheonixWolf]

I think that's possible.

What I can say for sure is that if you take a group of people from two different groups. One group that their dogma includes a fortune telling function as a belief and one that has no such explicit belief, that if you were claiming some super duper ability to see the future, you'd be likely to find more followers in group 1 than in group 2.

Again. So what is the point of patriarchal blssings? Isn’t this an extension sir of what lori and chad were accused of? Is personal revelation within that same belief?

 

[Jethro4WS]

My belief. Is that if the FBI were able to fully prosecute this case based on a ruling by a judge in Idaho. We would no longer be wondering.

The FBI has absolute authority to assert jurisdiction over any missing child case or criminal act anywhere in the country and require no ruling by judges nor acquiescence from local or state authorities. The FBI will do so in certain specific cases rather than all of them. In this case they are assisting at the moment but the level of their involvement can change at any time from no longer assisting up to asserting that they are the lead agency handling the case.

 

[CSIDreamer]

IMO it would depend on if they still believed in the authority of church leadership. If they did that might work, but they might either see them as astray or not as aware of things as they are. Either that or their followers but from what I can tell most of them buy the custody dispute angle. All that’s left after that is family.

Maybe something along the lines of this?

"Hey, we know you are committed to this ministry. Problem is.we need answers and you need to repair your images. We just need you to quickly and truthfully let us know exactly where the children are. Your followers will be relieved the heat is off of you".

Jmo

 

[BigAl16]

Perhaps. To believe that someone could tell another's future would go against the LDS first principle of "free-agency". I do not believe that the majority of Patriarch's would consider themselves fortune tellers; this is of course my personal belief based on experience, limited as it is.

The role of the Patriarch in LDS theology, as I understand it to be, will have very little predictive power in finding the missing children.

I think that last paragraph is absolute truth and why no one who believes would be looking to them. Even someone who buys into some of Chad's visions, but is still a believing Mormon would not, IMO, be looking to the patriarch.

 

[BigAl16]

Again. So what is the point of patriarchal blssings? Isn’t this an extension sir of what lori and chad were accused of? Is personal revelation within that same belief?

Not something that I feel like I remember well enough to address. (I'm 4+ decades out of Mormonism and rather shocked that, in spite of being surrounded by plenty of believers, both friends and family, that I remember as much as I do. Or think I do )

 

[Idaholocal]

Why is it fuzzy? True or not?

Honestly I’m not going to re-answer something we already discussed for pages and it’s all still there, if you’re interested it’s a few threads back.

 

[diggndeeperstill]

dbm

meant for media thread

 

[txl]

I think that last paragraph is absolute truth and why no one who believes would be looking to them. Even someone who buys into some of Chad's visions, but is still a believing Mormon would not, IMO, be looking to the patriarch.

The relationship between a Patriarch and the person receiving the "Patriarchal Blessing" is pretty much one and done. The blessing is given and that, for most, is the end of the relationship. There is no second bite at the apple.

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

This point I agree with, kind of. They are fringe, but it isn't too far down the slippery slope from mainstream Mormonism and at some points in history might have been viewed as almost mainstream, which is why some of us have felt looking to Mormon beliefs for clues makes sense and that it is possible the church speaking out might move some involved to take action.

BBM
To me, the value of having a discussion on how closely (or not) their beliefs align with mainstream LDS teaching, is to come to the understanding that what might be seen as way out there to one member might seem commonplace or relatively normal (or at least neutral) to another. A response I got earlier (edit: from idaholocal post 372 in this thread) indicated that perhaps this prepper mentality was completely normal, maybe the visions, dead relatives bringing messages, etc. were too. They certainly didn't seem to get much pushback or admonishment that maybe they were going overboard. That wasn't really my experience, possibly because I grew up in a very large city (urban vs. rural). Prepping was aiming for a full freezer and pantry, and 72 hour backpack kits. No firearms, ammo etc.
All that really to say that yes, I believe the greater church leadership should speak up on behalf of these children, instead of hiding behind excuses like Chad and Lori are so out there it wouldn't matter, or this isn't an LDS problem, or even worse, we might get in legal trouble. There is no reason they shouldn't put the message out to as many members as possible. What Chad and Lori are doing is wrong, and that should be broadcast to anyone who knows them and is possibly assisting them. It's been weeks since this has been made public, there is absolutely no excuse for the church to sit idle while the kids are in danger. Moo.

 

[BigAl16]

The relationship between a Patriarch and the person receiving the "Patriarchal Blessing" is pretty much, one and done. The blessing is given and that is, for most, the end of the relationship. There is no second bite at the apple.

Exactly.