Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #31

[nhmemorymaker]

In my view, Mr. Means is too bad to be true. What I mean by that is that if Lori truly had friends in the, er, "movement," I would expect them to have advised her on counsel and supported her financially in all this. So I see two options: there is no Puppet Master and the sequence of events leading to the deaths and disappearances surrounding Lori were hers and hers alone; or there is a Puppet Master and he or she or they have decided to let Lori twist in the wind, to use the wonderful Watergate phrase. It would, of course, be in the interest of any Puppet Master to promote a legend that this was just the tragic story of a mentally unstable woman, you know how women are, menopausal, move along folks, nothing more to see here.

When you draw the contact/action diagrams for Lori the striking thing is how thick the members of the "movement" were on the ground in the Mesa/Chandler/Gilbert area. Charles, Lori, and Charles's million dollar insurance policy were surrounded by them. Which is why I tend to disagree that Charles was besotted to the point of derangement by her. He strikes me as a kind and humane individual who, after all, assumed the responsibility of raising other people's children. I think he loved Lori dearly and kept coming back to her in an attempt to get her away from the influence of the "movement," and that cost him his life. I may be wrong, but I believe there is more than one snake in this pit.

We have discussed the possibility of the case being thrown out because of Means failures to defend... that would be the ultimate failure. And maybe her only and strongest defense.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

In my view, Mr. Means is too bad to be true. What I mean by that is that if Lori truly had friends in the, er, "movement," I would expect them to have advised her on counsel and supported her financially in all this. So I see two options: there is no Puppet Master and the sequence of events leading to the deaths and disappearances surrounding Lori were hers and hers alone; or there is a Puppet Master and he or she or they have decided to let Lori twist in the wind, to use the wonderful Watergate phrase. It would, of course, be in the interest of any Puppet Master to promote a legend that this was just the tragic story of a mentally unstable woman, you know how women are, menopausal, move along folks, nothing more to see here.

When you draw the contact/action diagrams for Lori the striking thing is how thick the members of the "movement" were on the ground in the Mesa/Chandler/Gilbert area. Charles, Lori, and Charles's million dollar insurance policy were surrounded by them. Which is why I tend to disagree that Charles was besotted to the point of derangement by her. He strikes me as a kind and humane individual who, after all, assumed the responsibility of raising other people's children. I think he loved Lori dearly and kept coming back to her in an attempt to get her away from the influence of the "movement," and that cost him his life. I may be wrong, but I believe there is more than one snake in this pit.

...

 

[Monroe2]

I would hope at some point she would end up with a public defender, I doubt they would throw this. Case out, without trying to improve her ineffective counsel.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I would hope at some point she would end up with a public defender, I doubt they would throw this. Case out, without trying to improve her ineffective counsel.

Someone needs to advocate on behalf of the children and find her a decent attorney.

I had a nightmare last night that her bail was lowered to 1K. That was a disturbing dream. Jmo

 

[DI_Isokawa]

https://www.********.com/f/lori-val...m=copy_link-tip&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet I wonder if this is real

It isn't. Somebody's idea of a joke.

 

[Tortoise]

Has anyone else ever thought of the possibility that Tylee saw what went on inside the house with Alex and Charles, and because she’d be a witness that LE could possibly talk to and get the truth out of someday, Lori used that as even more reasoning for as to why something had to be done to get rid of her. I say “even more reasoning” because we already know that she talked about how they became possessed like zombies. I really feel whatever Lori (and Chad) have decided to do that they’ve convinced themselves that this was necessary and justifiable.


(ETA - I’ve wrote the same thing on some of the social media groups, I know some thought I was copying posts from here lol, no, I’m just sometimes sharing my thoughts on here and elsewhere, that’s all. Sorry )

(Copying your post in the media thread over here)

I know a lot of people have suggested this, including KW.

I don't happen to believe that Tylee saw Charles being shot. I think if she did, she would have known it didn't go down as Lori described (Charles and Alex fighting *on the ground* with Charles hitting Alex with the bat) or as Alex described (Charles *picking up* the bat and hitting Alex over the back of the head while he was *standing* with his back turned to Charles, before he went and got his gun while Charles did nothing). Tylee did not report seeing Charles hitting Alex with the bat, and if she did you can bet she would have said it because she didn't hold back with trying to cast him as the aggressor. I do believe it was very important to Lori to have Tylee outside at the moment Charles was murdered in cold blood and to have her with JJ to stop him getting out of the car and witnessing it too.

Tylee said "she stood there with her little brother. Tylee indicted he was in the front seat so she opened the door and stood there. Tylee advised he tried to get out and she was keeping him there."

Lori said "[redacted - Tylee] hates him."

Lori also said (after she got in the car) "[redacted - JJ] was in the car and [redacted - Tylee] was freaking out."

(Also sidetracking here but this is very interesting in the context of Lori's actions consistently being projected onto Charles - Lori stated "he didn't bother her last night which she was kind of surprised about because she was expecting "kind of an ambush", that he would just come over and be "just mean".)


Going back to the purse incident in January:

O: Has he done this before?
LV: Not this extreme but he's been ballistic where we had to leave because he was being awful and I don't want him to hurt one of the kids or something...
TR: Probably 3 or 4 times that I can remember.
LV: 13 years.
TR: Yeah. So really just a stand up guy, overall.
O: (Laughs.) Hey I'm not making any judgement.
LV: (Laughs.)

Tylee is being sarcastic IMO, there's no way she was saying this as her truth about him in the context of that conversation. I think it's important because it shows how Lori has infected Tylee's opinions. Nowhere here does she say Charles had ever hurt Tylee - and I say it's because Tylee is in the room and she can't lie about that. Tylee is backing Lori up that they had to leave because of what Lori says he would do.

I also note that when the officer asks the question there is no accusation of physical threat from Charles on the table. He has allegedly taken her purse, oh and cheated. So it's hard to see what the officer is asking for here, he's bought the narrative that they had to leave for their own safety, but what in this incident report is he referring to? Coming home to his stuff being gone and then taking Lori's phone and ID? It's easy to see how Lori manipulates everything and even police officers stop thinking.

So I'll get to the point. I think on the day of Charles' death, Tylee felt she was the cause of Charles being shot.

Tylee said "she never hit him with the bat or anything and it was for security and in hindsight she probably shouldn't have brought it at all because it caused for trouble."

I think Lori let her think that, that is why Tylee was freaking out in the car, and my guess is Tylee was coached using that as leverage - to say nothing about what they were doing or about Charles merely trying to get his phone back so he could take JJ, and to push the narrative that Charles was just enraged and crazy. Hence the reason Tylee says she saw Charles hold the bat like he was going to hit someone but then admitting she didn't see him holding the bat, and not knowing what anyone was saying. I do not believe Tylee didn't know that Lori had Charles' phone.

The trouble is, I think Tylee would have been thinking about this long afterwards, especially when Colby came over and was angry and upset with Lori because she wouldn't tell him what happened. I think Lori made Tylee feel she had to keep the secret too, and it would have been a weight on her conscience. And then with Lori's plans to wed Chad, and bring Melani in with Brandon's life insurance, and Chad being newly widowed too, without a doubt I think Lori knew that Tylee was going to put it all together. She was just too close to all the action to not see what was going to go down around her.

moo

links -

Tylee's police statement -Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix
Lori's police statement -Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix
Purse incident - BODY CAM: Gilbert PD asks Lori Vallow to go to CBI

 

[DI_Isokawa]

I don't happen to believe that Tylee saw Charles being shot. I think if she did, she would have known it didn't go down as Lori described (Charles and Alex fighting *on the ground* with Charles hitting Alex with the bat) or as Alex described (Charles *picking up* the bat and hitting Alex over the back of the head while he was *standing* with his back turned to Charles, before he went and got his gun while Charles did nothing). Tylee did not report seeing Charles hitting Alex with the bat, and if she did you can bet she would have said it because she didn't hold back with trying to cast him as the aggressor. I do believe it was very important to Lori to have Tylee outside at the moment Charles was murdered in cold blood and to have her with JJ to stop him getting out of the car and witnessing it too.

[snip]

I agree that the sequence was that Lori got Tylee, JJ, and the dog in the Kia, Alex shot Charles inside, Lori drove off and coached Tylee during the ride while Alex tidied up before calling 911. And there are allegations that Alex had a suppressor (silencer) for that gun. If true, that could explain why the neighbors didn't hear anything and more importantly, why the dog didn't freak out. (Bailey was a trained service dog, not a gun dog) Alex could have stashed the suppressor anywhere; I doubt the Chandler police searched every nook and cranny of the house, the yard, and four vehicles.

 

[Tortoise]

 

[Tortoise]

How do we think this will play out with Chad being called as a prosecution witness? I'd be interested to get some perspectives on this.

 

[CSIDreamer]

How do we think this will play out with Chad being called as a prosecution witness? I'd be interested to get some perspectives on this.

I think he will plead the 5th. Jmo

 

[DI_Isokawa]

How do we think this will play out with Chad being called as a prosecution witness? I'd be interested to get some perspectives on this.

Will he do anything other than take the 5th?

 

[Monroe2]

How do we think this will play out with Chad being called as a prosecution witness? I'd be interested to get some perspectives on this.

He will commit perjury and or claim the 5th

 

[spandangly]

I agree that the sequence was that Lori got Tylee, JJ, and the dog in the Kia, Alex shot Charles inside, Lori drove off and coached Tylee during the ride while Alex tidied up before calling 911. And there are allegations that Alex had a suppressor (silencer) for that gun. If true, that could explain why the neighbors didn't hear anything and more importantly, why the dog didn't freak out. (Bailey was a trained service dog, not a gun dog) Alex could have stashed the suppressor anywhere; I doubt the Chandler police searched every nook and cranny of the house, the yard, and four vehicles.

My thoughts are very similar to what you and Tortoise put forward. I have some comments and questions for explorations' sake:

- earlier on we had a neighbor here who said since it was just after the 4th of July, there were a lot of neighborhood complaints of ppl still setting off fireworks on a neighborhood social media group (I assume something like Nextdoor). They stated there was even a complaint that morning of fireworks, but then later discussion that there had been a shooting.
-no clue about Bailey but I think it's of note that the day the purse was stolen he was in the car but did not go into the school. I imagine this was the norm (as opposed to what happened the day Charles was killed).
-I cannot once remember my father being so angry I would describe him as "ballistic". Still, going ballistic approx once every 4-5 years, does not seem unreasonable, from the standpoint of an adult losing their temper. But having to leave the property to stay in a hotel does seem extreme (either as a response, or as a legitimate need to extremely scary behavior). I think this happened, but I can't decide if Lori was being melodramatic with the kids, or Charles could occasionally get scary. I'm curious how this plays into Tylee's perception of him.
- Dealing with a crazy person who was potentially threatening the well-being of myself or my children could certainly make me go ballistic. I don't fault Charles for his actions. If anything, he seems to have restrained himself. He didn't lash out at Tylee, he simply (angrily) disarmed her. He didn't smash the bat around the house in a threatening way. He didn't chase Alex down the hall, and he didn't smash the bedroom door in with the bat. Alex was barely touched, by the looks of his "injury". It doesn't even seem like Charles defended himself from the gun, frankly. He wasn't running or lunging, from the location of his body. (This makes my heart hurt).
-Why would Tylee grab the bat? I get she had used it before at her uncle's house, but it seems like she'd never actually had a need for it? And did she not recognize the voices of her mom and Charles? I think Lori poisoned her mind, but I still have a hard time imagining grabbing a bat against a parent who has essentially never seemed threatening before? It seems like Charles and Tylee never really got along, for whatever reason. Part of my evidence for this is that she and Kay were not close. Could they have had many, many yelling blowouts? And that, combined with Lori pushing a violent narrative, had Tylee feeling a need for physical defense? Or had she actually felt physically threatened by him before?
- I'm not trying to make Charles out as a bad guy. There is no evidence that he was. But I do assume he was a normal human. I'm just trying to figure out how Tylee felt the need for physical protection against a parent she's known for 15 years without some previous experience. As far as I can tell, she was more likely to need it against Alex. He had attacked her biological father and been jailed for it. Could she have brought the bat out against Alex? Or did she think of Alex as a protector?
-The setup couldn't (?) have relied on Tylee coming out with the bat, right? So what was the actual plan? Tylee would be asleep? Send Tylee out with something for JJ?

 

[Tortoise]

So in practice what happens when a witness pleads the 5th? Does he sit in the witness box and answer no comment, allowing the prosecutor to put the questions and note the absence of responses, or does he just not take the stand at all? Does he plead the 5th to ALL examination, or can he be selective? ie not answer the prosecutor but choose to answer the defense cross-examination?

I am perplexed as to why he is down as a witness, if they expect that from him. Is it to infer her guilt by his refusal to corroborate his earlier answers that they were with MG? If that's the case, does the jury get to hear that he is pleading the 5th?

I do understand that the prosecutor doesn't have to call every witness on his list, but I like to think there is some sort of a strategy for having him listed.

 

[Deerrun]

8

So in practice what happens when a witness pleads the 5th? Does he sit in the witness box and answer no comment, allowing the prosecutor to put the questions and note the absence of responses, or does he just not take the stand at all? Does he plead the 5th to ALL examination, or can he be selective? ie not answer the prosecutor but choose to answer the defense cross-examination?

I am perplexed as to why he is down as a witness, if they expect that from him. Is it to infer her guilt by his refusal to corroborate his earlier answers that they were with MG? If that's the case, does the jury get to hear that he is pleading the 5th?

I do understand that the prosecutor doesn't have to call every witness on his list, but I like to think there is some sort of a strategy for having him listed.

I believe pleading the 5th you are still required to take the stand. You can also be selective to what you plead the 5th for. I think the purpose of him being called are for the questions he will be asked and not necessarily answers. It puts it out there, questions are not usually asked if the answer isn't known. Jmo

 

[DI_Isokawa]

My thoughts are very similar to what you and Tortoise put forward. I have some comments and questions for explorations' sake:

- earlier on we had a neighbor here who said since it was just after the 4th of July, there were a lot of neighborhood complaints of ppl still setting off fireworks on a neighborhood social media group (I assume something like Nextdoor). They stated there was even a complaint that morning of fireworks, but then later discussion that there had been a shooting.
-no clue about Bailey but I think it's of note that the day the purse was stolen he was in the car but did not go into the school. I imagine this was the norm (as opposed to what happened the day Charles was killed).
-I cannot once remember my father being so angry I would describe him as "ballistic". Still, going ballistic approx once every 4-5 years, does not seem unreasonable, from the standpoint of an adult losing their temper. But having to leave the property to stay in a hotel does seem extreme (either as a response, or as a legitimate need to extremely scary behavior). I think this happened, but I can't decide if Lori was being melodramatic with the kids, or Charles could occasionally get scary. I'm curious how this plays into Tylee's perception of him.
- Dealing with a crazy person who was potentially threatening the well-being of myself or my children could certainly make me go ballistic. I don't fault Charles for his actions. If anything, he seems to have restrained himself. He didn't lash out at Tylee, he simply (angrily) disarmed her. He didn't smash the bat around the house in a threatening way. He didn't chase Alex down the hall, and he didn't smash the bedroom door in with the bat. Alex was barely touched, by the looks of his "injury". It doesn't even seem like Charles defended himself from the gun, frankly. He wasn't running or lunging, from the location of his body. (This makes my heart hurt).
-Why would Tylee grab the bat? I get she had used it before at her uncle's house, but it seems like she'd never actually had a need for it? And did she not recognize the voices of her mom and Charles? I think Lori poisoned her mind, but I still have a hard time imagining grabbing a bat against a parent who has essentially never seemed threatening before? It seems like Charles and Tylee never really got along, for whatever reason. Part of my evidence for this is that she and Kay were not close. Could they have had many, many yelling blowouts? And that, combined with Lori pushing a violent narrative, had Tylee feeling a need for physical defense? Or had she actually felt physically threatened by him before?
- I'm not trying to make Charles out as a bad guy. There is no evidence that he was. But I do assume he was a normal human. I'm just trying to figure out how Tylee felt the need for physical protection against a parent she's known for 15 years without some previous experience. As far as I can tell, she was more likely to need it against Alex. He had attacked her biological father and been jailed for it. Could she have brought the bat out against Alex? Or did she think of Alex as a protector?
-The setup couldn't (?) have relied on Tylee coming out with the bat, right? So what was the actual plan? Tylee would be asleep? Send Tylee out with something for JJ?

Point by point, not disputing but just discussing:

It is certainly possible that the neighbors would have mistaken gunshots for fireworks.

Measuring from Google Earth and assuming that the Kia was parked on the side near to the front door when Charles was shot, Bailey would have been 40-50 feet from the gun with one interior and one exterior wall between. It seems likely, but is not certain, that people would have reported barking and howling. But I admit it's a stretch. And there is no sign of Bailey on the lapel vids, so I assume he was at school with JJ when the police arrived.

I agree that Charles was not perfect, and that it is plausible he occasionally acted out his frustrations with what was going on around him.

Along with Tortoise, I do not think there was ever an interaction between Charles, Tylee, Alex, and the bat. I think Charles was gunned down in cold blood by Alex while Tylee, JJ, and the dog were in the Kia and the bat was introduced to the scene when Alex was staging it prior to calling 911.

I think Tylee's statements about needing the bat for protection referred to the times when she was alone at Alex's place in San Tan Valley, not when she was around Charles. God knows what kind of creeps (including Alex) hung around his place.

Along with Tortoise, I think the actual plan was to get the kids and the dog in the car, and then lure Charles back into the house (with or without Lori) where he was ambushed by Alex.

 

[Diddian]

So in practice what happens when a witness pleads the 5th? Does he sit in the witness box and answer no comment, allowing the prosecutor to put the questions and note the absence of responses, or does he just not take the stand at all? Does he plead the 5th to ALL examination, or can he be selective? ie not answer the prosecutor but choose to answer the defense cross-examination?

I am perplexed as to why he is down as a witness, if they expect that from him. Is it to infer her guilt by his refusal to corroborate his earlier answers that they were with MG? If that's the case, does the jury get to hear that he is pleading the 5th?

I do understand that the prosecutor doesn't have to call every witness on his list, but I like to think there is some sort of a strategy for having him listed.

I don't know if the order in which people appear on the list makes any difference, but I noted that CD's name appeared after David Warwick's name. IIRC, Mr. Warwick appeared on at least one podcast with MG, LV, and CD. So, I wonder whether Warwick will give his testimony about something relevant (when LV and CD met, what their apparent relationship was, and how they seemed to behave together at that time) and then Chad will be called and asked questions about that testimony relative to how he has otherwise (such as to LE) represented the timing and nature of his relationship with LV.

 

[indicolite22]

I don't know if the order in which people appear on the list makes any difference, but I noted that CD's name appeared after David Warwick's name. IIRC, Mr. Warwick appeared on at least one podcast with MG, LV, and CD. So, I wonder whether Warwick will give his testimony about something relevant (when LV and CD met, what their apparent relationship was, and how they seemed to behave together at that time) and then Chad will be called and asked questions about that testimony relative to how he has otherwise (such as to LE) represented the timing and nature of his relationship with LV.

BBM. IMO he might have a connection with another witness. I think all have information that pertains to the missing children and not just to Chad and Lori's relationship in general.

 

[RexburgSleuth]

Somewhat off-topic, but has anyone else noticed the randomly generated URL for the YouTube video showing enhanced footage of Chad and Lori at the storage unit (from which I took my thumbnail)?

It includes actual words in it "END" and "sex". "END" as in end-of-times and "sex" as in an alleged extra-marital affair. What are the odds that a randomly generated URL would have actual words, and those actual words relate to and hint at the assumed tie-in of the subjects of the video? Now, the question is, how many believe this is an actual coincidence?

Here's Eric Parker's (Google Gold Product Expert) explanation of how the URLs are assigned:
Are the ID-based YouTube URLs random? - YouTube Community

 

[Tortoise]

Measuring from Google Earth and assuming that the Kia was parked on the side near to the front door when Charles was shot, Bailey would have been 40-50 feet from the gun with one interior and one exterior wall between. It seems likely, but is not certain, that people would have reported barking and howling. But I admit it's a stretch. And there is no sign of Bailey on the lapel vids, so I assume he was at school with JJ when the police arrived.

rsbm

Which interior wall? If Tylee left the door open, expecting either Lori or Charles to come out to the car after her, it leads straight into the open plan room where Charles was on the floor. So there is a corner to turn, meaning no straight line of sound, but no wall obstruction between gun and the car that I can think of.

moo