ID ID - Lonnie Jones, 13, Orofino, September 1951

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kline said:
Great scenario!
And for all we know may be very close to what happened.
Your theory also works with a local coming from or going to Weippe or Peirce.
Maybe it was an out of towner like you say visiting someone up on the hill.
Ill bet the mechanics of the killer spotting Lonnie, reconitoring then picking him up probably were very close to what youve described.
Click to expand...

Thanks, kline, coming from you this means a lot. I have feeling that it all happened on HWY 12 -- there's not that much time if the information we have is correct.

Still, poor little guy, whatever possessed him to start walking alone at night.
 
I want a look at Walter Cunninghams arrest sheet and records, any ideas on how to obtain them ? The jail I emailed didn't reply (didn't expect them to) is 1952 info available ?
I'm also trying to get hold of this guys family to see if anything was passed down, word of mouth, diaries, files etc

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tucson/obituary.aspx?n=henry-e-savage&pid=140218802

He's the guy that delt with the case, ex FBI.
 
Oookay ... some more thoughts:

1.) The ME from back then is probably deceased by now, but what about anyone younger, who worked back then in the morgue? Such a person would maybe remember at least some details.

2.) I try the whole time to get an overview over the area, but of course, Google shpws me the situation today. I wonder, where Hwy 12 leads to and whether there was a faster alternative road back in the day. Because if we follow the idea of a non-local, he had to have some reason to be on that road that night. Orofino doesn't appear that big to me, so would there be something bigger behind Orofino, along Hwy 12? A possible destination for any kind of business traveler? I remember such a case in Ohio, also in the 50s, that made absolutely no sense to me till someone told me, Goodyear was in Akron.

3.) Are there any hints, where those boys who gave Lonnie a ride back then, are today?

4.) @Robin Hood: Did you check the FBI vault site? Had no time to do so, but if Savage was involved in something bigger during his FBI-years, there is maybe something in there.

5.) A lot of meat in the area means, also a lot people who would know how to slaughter an animal in the area.

6.) @Kline: If you are around there and have time, can you shoot some pics of the crime scene as it is today?

7.) If this guy did it before and took non-local boys, for example carnie boys, it could be, they were reported missing at the next station of the fair. So what would be the typical next station?

8.) I doubt, that rapes of boys were reported at all. Homosexuality brought stigma back then, even to the victims of homosexual rape. But if those things would happen, rumors would go around in school. So someone from high school in these years would maybe remember rumors about strange guys hanging around, maybe with a car. Or about someone, who changed from one day to the other. In the Ohio case someone remembered, there were allegedly two guys hanging out near the school offering money for sex with boys, but that was never reported to police. So who has an old yearbook?

Just an unsorted list of thoughts.

Peter
 
I have, what I believe, is a school friend that definately knew Lonnie, I understand he's still alive. I THINK he lives with his son in Weippe. I can't ring from here or door knock. Would some kind person like to help ?

Peter, what is the FBI vault site ? (off to look)

RE. the scene of crime.. I saved this from a post way, way upstream (it might be Kline's)
A photo would be good though

''Just going by Google map four miles puts the location almost exactly where I was originally told.
If you go to the satelite view and scroll along HWY 12 towards Greer from Orofino you will see a road called Deberton rd. that branches off the HWY.
Keep scrolling along the HWY until you see a subsatntial strip of timbered land between the HWY and the River.
You cant tell from the map but that is a rise approximately in the middle of that strip of ground is where I was told the body was found.
But as you can see if you stop by the HWY you cant even see the River there.
Though as soon as you pass that stretch the HWY is right next to the river again though thats a bit further then four miles.
Its hard to tell how exact that figure is or whether they were guestimating.
Obviously im going to have to try and get someone who knows to nail it down for me''
 
Gilberts funeral home delt with the autopsy I think, as Peter Brendt suggests maybe someone who's still with us can throw more light on the subject. Kline, who's running Gilberts now ? What are they called ? Gilberts aren't showing up for me on a search.
 
Robin Hood said:
I want a look at Walter Cunninghams arrest sheet and records, any ideas on how to obtain them ? The jail I emailed didn't reply (didn't expect them to) is 1952 info available ?
I'm also trying to get hold of this guys family to see if anything was passed down, word of mouth, diaries, files etc

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/tucson/obituary.aspx?n=henry-e-savage&pid=140218802

He's the guy that delt with the case, ex FBI.
Click to expand...

Cunningham had nine kids, so some of them have to be around still.
 
katydid23 said:
Cunningham had nine kids, so some of them have to be around still.
Click to expand...

I can't find any on LDS, I'm not sure if they would want to tell me anything either. They may, but asking if their dad could have anything to do with a murder might be a too big an ask.
 
Sorry, was busy the last days ...
Robin Hood said:
Peter, what is the FBI vault site ? (off to look)
Click to expand...

http://vault.fbi.gov/Jack the Ripper/Jack the Ripper Part 1 of 1/view

That is their Jack the Ripper profile. They have also other old cases, some personal files and such scanned. 3000 in total and not too good organized. You have to click through the menus.

Robin Hood said:
''Just going by Google map four miles puts the location almost exactly where I was originally told.
If you go to the satelite view and scroll along HWY 12 towards Greer from Orofino you will see a road called Deberton rd. that branches off the HWY.
Keep scrolling along the HWY until you see a subsatntial strip of timbered land between the HWY and the River.
You cant tell from the map but that is a rise approximately in the middle of that strip of ground is where I was told the body was found.
But as you can see if you stop by the HWY you cant even see the River there.
Though as soon as you pass that stretch the HWY is right next to the river again though thats a bit further then four miles.
Its hard to tell how exact that figure is or whether they were guestimating.
Obviously im going to have to try and get someone who knows to nail it down for me''
Click to expand...

I can see all that on Google and now, with your description even better. But the point is, how does it feel. That's a bit an iffy subject, but I observed with a lot of SKs, not only the dump sites, but also the sites, they use to commit their crimes have a certain emotional imprint on them. Well, as long as they have a choice in the first place. Bundy, the hiker and skier like forests on mountains, Ridgway, more an indoor nature in some aspects, likes the flats grounds around the Green River Valley. So how does that site feel? Remote? Certainly? Relaxing? Threatening? At night like something from a cheap horror movie? I know, it's a long shot and if it's just a one-timer, it will not tell us much, but if he was before already a serial rapist or has killed before, chances are, he has an established hunting behavior with an established taste for hunting grounds. That would tell us, what to look for when we try to follow the trace backwards. So, it's more the feel than the look, I'm searching for.

Peter
 
Peter Brendt said:
7.) If this guy did it before and took non-local boys, for example carnie boys, it could be, they were reported missing at the next station of the fair. So what would be the typical next station?

8.) I doubt, that rapes of boys were reported at all. Peter
Click to expand...

This is my thinking, too. Someone familiar with the area - now local to me a city girl, means the city. So perhaps I shouldn't say non-local, implying not from Orofino.

It can be someone from the surrounding area, who picked up carnies at the state fair -- and was startled to find out he picked up a kid from the area.
 
Peter, the Jack the Ripper profile was very interesting, had a look at Liberace and Charlie Chaplin too (he features in another case I'm looking at)
 
Robin Hood said:
Gilberts funeral home delt with the autopsy I think, as Peter Brendt suggests maybe someone who's still with us can throw more light on the subject. Kline, who's running Gilberts now ? What are they called ? Gilberts aren't showing up for me on a search.
Click to expand...
I dont know who runs the local Funeral Home now....I can find out though!
 
Peter Brendt said:
Oookay ... some more thoughts:

1.) The ME from back then is probably deceased by now, but what about anyone younger, who worked back then in the morgue? Such a person would maybe remember at least some details.

2.) I try the whole time to get an overview over the area, but of course, Google shpws me the situation today. I wonder, where Hwy 12 leads to and whether there was a faster alternative road back in the day. Because if we follow the idea of a non-local, he had to have some reason to be on that road that night. Orofino doesn't appear that big to me, so would there be something bigger behind Orofino, along Hwy 12? A possible destination for any kind of business traveler? I remember such a case in Ohio, also in the 50s, that made absolutely no sense to me till someone told me, Goodyear was in Akron.

3.) Are there any hints, where those boys who gave Lonnie a ride back then, are today?

4.) @Robin Hood: Did you check the FBI vault site? Had no time to do so, but if Savage was involved in something bigger during his FBI-years, there is maybe something in there.

5.) A lot of meat in the area means, also a lot people who would know how to slaughter an animal in the area.

6.) @Kline: If you are around there and have time, can you shoot some pics of the crime scene as it is today?

7.) If this guy did it before and took non-local boys, for example carnie boys, it could be, they were reported missing at the next station of the fair. So what would be the typical next station?

8.) I doubt, that rapes of boys were reported at all. Homosexuality brought stigma back then, even to the victims of homosexual rape. But if those things would happen, rumors would go around in school. So someone from high school in these years would maybe remember rumors about strange guys hanging around, maybe with a car. Or about someone, who changed from one day to the other. In the Ohio case someone remembered, there were allegedly two guys hanging out near the school offering money for sex with boys, but that was never reported to police. So who has an old yearbook?

Just an unsorted list of thoughts.

Peter
Click to expand...
I agree completely that the News Reports backing off on the homosexual rape aspect of the crime after the initial reports was a conscience decision for the reasons you state.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if this wasnt at the behest of Law Enforcement they may have felt back then it was the decent thing to do.
Ill see if I can get one of my kids to help me to get a few shots of the dump site....its nothing much to see,the HWY was widened in the 60's and there is even a private residence very close to it(if the spot pointed out to me by my father is correct) pretty much all youll see is a bunch of brush sloping down towards the river.
Its the one spot between Greer and Orofino where there is a substantial chunk of timber and land between the HWY and river ( thats how you can spot the area on Google...).im sure it was a popular spot to pull over if you needed to answer the call of nature.
Its at the top of a small grade as it rises up levels off then the road drops again hugging the river till you get to Greer.
Then as now there isnt much in that direction heading East.
After Greer you have Kamiah which is smaller then Orofino,ditto for Kooskia which is the next stop until after Kamiah then its a desolate 150 miles or so to Missoula Montana.
If you head West from Orofino its about 45 miles to Lewiston.
I beleive there was a slaughterhouse here back then of course with all the farms and ranches thats not surprising but you can bet that also means there were many folks around here used to dispatching animals with a coup de grace throat slashing.
 
Oh,and Robin,You are correct: you cant see the River from the road there...at least now.
Thats one thing I dont know...how much HWY improvement has altered the area.
You can tell some development was done around the house that is there now.
Its still pretty heavily timbered.
It is still close to the river but the trees and brush obscure it.
 
Robin Hood said:
Peter, the Jack the Ripper profile was very interesting, had a look at Liberace and Charlie Chaplin too (he features in another case I'm looking at)
Click to expand...

Funny thing with that Jack the Ripper profile. It is so 101. Jack was a lustmurderer and therefore a man. And because he was a man, he was a lustmurderer. Somehow, I think, through the whole profile, I could feel, Douglas was a bit disgusted to have to do this for a publicity stunt while his desk was full of active cases.

Peter
 
kline said:
I agree completely that the News Reports backing off on the homosexual rape aspect of the crime after the initial reports was a conscience decision for the reasons you state.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if this wasnt at the behest of Law Enforcement they may have felt back then it was the decent thing to do.
Ill see if I can get one of my kids to help me to get a few shots of the dump site....its nothing much to see,the HWY was widened in the 60's and there is even a private residence very close to it(if the spot pointed out to me by my father is correct) pretty much all youll see is a bunch of brush sloping down towards the river.
Its the one spot between Greer and Orofino where there is a substantial chunk of timber and land between the HWY and river ( thats how you can spot the area on Google...).im sure it was a popular spot to pull over if you needed to answer the call of nature.
Its at the top of a small grade as it rises up levels off then the road drops again hugging the river till you get to Greer.
Then as now there isnt much in that direction heading East.
After Greer you have Kamiah which is smaller then Orofino,ditto for Kooskia which is the next stop until after Kamiah then its a desolate 150 miles or so to Missoula Montana.
If you head West from Orofino its about 45 miles to Lewiston.
I beleive there was a slaughterhouse here back then of course with all the farms and ranches thats not surprising but you can bet that also means there were many folks around here used to dispatching animals with a coup de grace throat slashing.
Click to expand...

If I imagine this all right after this description, there was no reason for any kind of business traveler to be on that road at this time of the night. And even locals would be pretty rare there at this time. Add to that, that cars were rarer back then than they are today.

Another question: From where the two boys dropped Lonnie to the site where he was found, how far is that?

Peter
 
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