If Terri didn't do it, then why.....

[allboys]

It is possible, and I can only keep it as a possibility, that Terri's "crime" is covering for someone she cares about. As reprehensible as it is to keep information which would resolve a missing child's case, I can only come up with one compelling reason for a woman to not speak up, and that is that she is attempting to protect someone whom she loves more than anything.

The other possibility which is too often dismissed because Terri is reportedly lying, is that she is truly innocent.

This has crossed my mind as well. Obviously, it is a VERY remote possibility, but I DO wonder about her 16 year old son. I would think LE has checked him out closely, so that would make his connection impossible. But when I heard that he had broken his leg (falling off a horse) - can't remember the source - my mind wandered to, what if he broke his leg jumping down into a cave-like hiding place where he is keeping Kyron? Honestly, I think I just watch too many crime shows...but couldn't Terri's son possibly have motive to want to "get back" at Kaine, or maybe in his mind, save Kyron from Kaine? I hope I haven't broken any WS rules, I'm still kind of a newbie.

 

[shefner]

I didn't think it was possible to be evasive on a polygraph because it's just yes or no answers but I guess it was explained recently and the evasive part was her walking out and evading the test altogether.

Yes, I see what you mean. But I think those who read poly's can determine from your reaction to certain questions and by the test results whether you are are being "evasive" or "less than honest." I'm certainly not an expert on the testing but I have heard the person administering the test and reading the results makes a difference. That is why some choose to pay to have another test privately given.
If the tests were fool-proof, I think the results would be allowed in court....but since they're not, its tough to know how much significance to place on it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

A few thoughts about LDT.

I took one once. Failed it miserably. Didn't have anything to do with a crime, and I wasn't accused of anything. Just managed to fail it horrifically.

Then, about 10 years later, I took another one. There was a 'control' question, that I knew I had to lie about (those were the instructions, so they'd get a baseline on what happens *to me* when I lie, and how the machine reads it. The polygrapher was chuckling about three questions ahead...I was already losing control, knowing I'd have to "lie", even though there was no negative consequence for lying. By the time I got to the "lie", he had to adjust the paper several times to keep the needle on it. Afterwards, he told me to go home and congratulate my parents - they'd raised a very honest person who couldn't lie to save herself.

Those two experiences taught me something very, very valuable. There is definitely a valid reason LDTs are not allowed as evidence. One can fail them for so many different reasons, and pass them for the same thing. It's one of those things which, if done correctly, can yield clues to follow up on...but even then, it's not so very reliable.

And my last thought on polygraphing, is that cops can, and often do, tell a person they've failed it, just to rachet up pressure on someone they feel is guilty and close to cracking. The problem is, the person may not have failed it whatsoever; may have passed it. May have passed it with "flying colors". But they're told they failed it. The officers can, and often do, lie to suspects just to gauge reactions and see if they can't pressure them into confessing.

And if TH walked out of one poly because "she was failing", it wasn't her who figured that out. She can't see the graph. That's part of how the area is arranged; the person taking the poly can't see what a "lie" looks like on a graph. So she must've been told she'd failed (and it may have been a lie), and she got frustrated, unhooked and left. But it wasn't her who decided she'd failed; she's been told that by LE who are legally allowed to lie about results and evidence and testimony.

So many people don't realize that LE is legally able to lie about things.

Best-
Herding Cats

Just hitting "thanks" didn't feel like enough.

I had a friend who failed a LDT miserably. She was one of the most rigourously honest people I've ever known, she had no reason to lie and the other guy's story was so fishy that even with the failed LDT, the police decided not to file charges.

Her experience got me started on reading up on polygraphs and I am now convinced that they are woo-woo science.

I tell my husband that if I ever disappear under mysterious circumstances, he is to call 911, then call a lawyer. And under no circumstances consent to a polygraph!

 

[GrainneDhu]

I want Kyron found. Alive, if possible. But found. I don't know if I think TH is guilty or not. But I do know that if the pressure continues, she just might decide to kill herself.

SBM

I agree.

And she could be factually innocent. But if she is suffering from depression, her thought process might go something like "I've lost Kyron because I didn't walk him into the classroom. I've lost KH. I've lost baby K. No one will ever believe that I am innocent. I can't go on living like this." That's the way at least one person (me) has thought during major depressive episodes.

Obviously, I didn't act on it. But then, I've never lost two of my three children and my husband, all within a month.

I also fear that if she committed suicide, LE would be very tempted to claim it was due to her overwhelming sense of guilt and basically close the file. "She's gone, we'll never find Kyron now."

And--I know I will get flak for this--I believe that even if TMH is factually guilty, it would still be a tragedy if she committed suicide. Even if she left a note with directions on how to find Kyron. Because I do believe that some people can change themselves for the better, I do believe in redemption, I do believe that no one is irredeemable. If TMH is factually guilty, I do believe in giving her a chance to repent and reform.

It's old fashioned and silly but that's me.

 

[Herding Cats]

Respectfully snipped for space.

I imagine that if Kaine and Desiree made up the failed polygraph story and ran with the lie just to smear TH's reputation LE is looking at them mighty weirdly right now.

If you want to make up a lie that makes someone else look suspicious, IMO it would make more sense to come up with something that happened outside LE offices and that they can't easily prove wrong. She kicked at my cat... she hates old age pensioners...she stole that t-shirt...she once cheated in a test...

Sorry if I wasn't clear (and I wasn't...). I meant that LE said she'd failed...not that KH and DY said she failed. Like I said earlier, LE can, and often do, lie about poly results, to put pressure on a suspect. I meant it that way. I don't think KH and DY made that up; rather, they're parroting what LE told them. Sorry for the confusion.


Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Emeralgem]

I'm not certain anyone who makes a decision to harm or kill a child is worthy of redemption, however I'm not God.
I do suspect IF a person does not feel any remorse for said action and is only concerned for themselves, they don't have too much of a chance of ever being redeemed.... JMO

 

[shefner]

Sorry if I wasn't clear (and I wasn't...). I meant that LE said she'd failed...not that KH and DY said she failed. Like I said earlier, LE can, and often do, lie about poly results, to put pressure on a suspect. I meant it that way. I don't think KH and DY made that up; rather, they're parroting what LE told them. Sorry for the confusion.


Best-
Herding Cats

Yesterday, Kaine and Desiree said Terri herself told them she had not done well on the test. They thought that was odd...

 

[grandmaj]

The 16 year old is off limits :nono: he is a minor and we don't sleuth minors. The broken leg is also a rumor. Let's get back on track here. If the news reports on the minor then we can discuss only what is printed.

 

[marlap]

Originally Posted by marlap

This is the thing that gets me the most and leads to my suspicions that TH is definitely involved with Kyron's disappearance:

The coincidence of these two particular but separate events in one person's life inside a few months:

(1) The person's stepchild disappears.

(2) Someone accuses the person of hiring them to kill the person's husband.

Unless the landscaper is the one who kidnapped Kyron and is trying to frame TH, I can't imagine those two separate events happening "at random" so to speak to one individual. Either event would never ever happen at all to 99,999,999 people out of 100,000,000.

Both events happening in the span of a few months to the same person?

snipped:

It is not so unlikely that 2) would follow 1), depending on the nature of 2).

That is exactly what my post says. The liklihood that those two events are not related at all is astronomical. I think the two events must be connected and either implicate TH or indicated someone is setting her up.

snipped:

It is no small thing to be suspected of such a crime as the injuring or death of a small child. Rightfully, the standard of proof should be very, very high.

Of course it wouldn't be a small thing. It would be a nightmare. I'm just glad the Ramsey's didn't have their nightmare compounded with a false conviction and hope that does not happen in this case one way or the other.

The main thing I care about is that Kyron is found and brought home...hopefully still alive!

KYRON sweetie, where ARE you??????????????

Then, I want the guilty party to pay for what they did.

 

[allboys]

The 16 year old is off limits :nono: he is a minor and we don't sleuth minors. The broken leg is also a rumor. Let's get back on track here. If the news reports on the minor then we can discuss only what is printed.

Gotcha! Sorry about that! Still learning the rules. :innocent: Thanks for setting me straight...

 

[Chewy]

This is the thing that gets me the most and leads to my suspicions that TH is definitely involved with Kyron's disappearance:

The coincidence of these two particular but separate events in one person's life inside a few months:

(1) The person's stepchild disappears.

(2) Someone accuses the person of hiring them to kill the person's husband.

Unless the landscaper is the one who kidnapped Kyron and is trying to frame TH, I can't imagine those two separate events happening "at random" so to speak to one individual. Either event would never ever happen at all to 99,999,999 people out of 100,000,000.

Both events happening in the span of a few months to the same person?

It would be like lightning hitting the same tree two years in a row on the same day at the same hour.

But I will say that there may be someone setting her up for all we know...good point about Jon Benet's parents. But, they were never arrested or indicted...zero evidence and have since been completely vindicated.

If there is zero evidence against TH, she won't be arrested.

My gut is that she is involved though. But if they have proof of a conspirancy, that will come out and I'll be the first to say I was wrong.

This is what convinced me as well. One thing I wanted to add is that perhaps the LE has access to recordings of her cell phone use that morning. It might be illegal for them to obtain but they have it, so they know something but need evidence.

 

[curvecuti]

This is what convinced me as well. One thing I wanted to add is that perhaps the LE has access to recordings of her cell phone use that morning. It might be illegal for them to obtain but they have it, so they know something but need evidence.

LE doesn't work that way. If they have her cell phone records, they have them legally. If the account was in Kaine's name I'm sure he gave them permission to obtain.

 

[sorrell skye]

This is what convinced me as well. One thing I wanted to add is that perhaps the LE has access to recordings of her cell phone use that morning. It might be illegal for them to obtain but they have it, so they know something but need evidence.

bbm

Access to cell phone records would require a search warrant, as telephone conversations, voicemail messages, & text messages are protected under the 4th amendment under search & seizure laws.

If LE has probable cause, they can easily request & obtain a warrant to access those records. I have read nothing in MSM or elsewhere that even implies, let alone states, that LE has obtained these records by less than legal means.

I have no doubt that LE has looked @ TH's cell phone records, since it was reported in a recent article that they did that very thing. I'm sure they did so by legal means via search warrant.

 

[eyes4crime]

bbm

Access to cell phone records would require a search warrant, as telephone conversations, voicemail messages, & text messages are protected under the 4th amendment under search & seizure laws.

If LE has probable cause, they can easily request & obtain a warrant to access those records. I have read nothing in MSM or elsewhere that even implies, let alone states, that LE has obtained these records by less than legal means.

I have no doubt that LE has looked @ TH's cell phone records, since it was reported in a recent article that they did that very thing. I'm sure they did so by legal means via search warrant.

sorrell - I asked AZ lawyer if Kaine could give permission to LE for search of house, cars, land, and cell phones if they were in his name. The response was yes and a warrant wouldn't be needed. Don't know if cell phones are in Kaine's name, but if they are LE wouldn't need a warrant if given permission by Kaine. moo

 

[Kat]

sorrell - I asked AZ lawyer if Kaine could give permission to LE for search of house, cars, land, and cell phones if they were in his name. The response was yes and a warrant wouldn't be needed. Don't know if cell phones are in Kaine's name, but if they are LE wouldn't need a warrant if given permission by Kaine. moo

I missed that thanks E4C!

 

[sorrell skye]

sorrell - I asked AZ lawyer if Kaine could give permission to LE for search of house, cars, land, and cell phones if they were in his name. The response was yes and a warrant wouldn't be needed. Don't know if cell phones are in Kaine's name, but if they are LE wouldn't need a warrant if given permission by Kaine. moo

TY Eyes for looking into that & posting your info!

There was an implication in someone's post that LE may have obtained TH's cell phone records illegally, and I was responding to that implication, as the comment in question seemed to suggest that LE may be engaging in corrupt investigative tactics (until they could obtain more concrete evidence), which I disagreed with.

 

[SleuthyGal]

perhaps the LE has access to recordings of her cell phone use that morning

LE won't have recordings of TMH's cell phone calls until or unless a listening device/bug is installed and that takes a court order. Prior to Kyron going missing LE would not have obtained this. Whether or not they have since put bugs on her land and/or cell phones is anyone's speculation, but as of June 4, they would not have accomplished this.

Cell phone records (lists of calls she made or received) are easily obtained with the proper legal permissions, and those LE already has from likely many weeks/months before June 4th and then after June 4.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

SBM

I agree.

And she could be factually innocent. But if she is suffering from depression, her thought process might go something like "I've lost Kyron because I didn't walk him into the classroom. I've lost KH. I've lost baby K. No one will ever believe that I am innocent. I can't go on living like this." That's the way at least one person (me) has thought during major depressive episodes.

Obviously, I didn't act on it. But then, I've never lost two of my three children and my husband, all within a month.

I also fear that if she committed suicide, LE would be very tempted to claim it was due to her overwhelming sense of guilt and basically close the file. "She's gone, we'll never find Kyron now."

And--I know I will get flak for this--I believe that even if TMH is factually guilty, it would still be a tragedy if she committed suicide. Even if she left a note with directions on how to find Kyron. Because I do believe that some people can change themselves for the better, I do believe in redemption, I do believe that no one is irredeemable. If TMH is factually guilty, I do believe in giving her a chance to repent and reform.

It's old fashioned and silly but that's me.

You are absolutely right. In addition, if she's factually guilty of whatever this turns out to be, she can go beyond personal redemption, and become a poster-person for how to prevent this from happening to other people.

 

[Donjeta]

To answer the question in the opening post (why is LE focusing on TH if she's innocent)...

IMO the amount of information we have now points to that she was lying about something and if she is innocent in Kyron's disappearance she is trying to cover for something else.

 

[human]

To answer the question in the opening post (why is LE focusing on TH if she's innocent)...

IMO the amount of information we have now points to that she was lying about something and if she is innocent in Kyron's disappearance she is trying to cover for something else.

what could possibly be worse?