IL - Belleville HS student beaten mercilessly on school bus, 2009

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What posters - myself included - are saying is that because the victim was a white male there will be no prosecution as a hate crime even if it the attack was motivated by hate. If the races were reversed and all other facts remained the same, it could very well be prosecuted that way.

With all due respect, , that is a separate issue from those I addressed in my post. And, yes, that is what you posted, but it is not what some have said here. I can quote the specific posts to which I was responding, but doing so can only raise the temperature in this thread and I believe you prefer we keep things cool.

Now as for your point, you may well be right. I hope not. I don't know anything about political structures in Belleville, IL, so I won't hazard a prediction. But district attorney is an elected position in most jurisidictions and so it shouldn't surprise us that DAs sometimes succumb to political pressure.

Let's keep in mind, however, that most such kowtowing in this country is done to please a white majority and disadvantage a black minority. In most places, African-Americans are more likely to be charged, overcharged, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced harshly than European-Americans are for the same offenses.

This isn't to say we shouldn't protest a miscarriage of justice in this case (if one ensues). But just once I'd like to see here the same swell of righteous indignation over mistreatments of minorities.
 
Yeah, what would be the alternative - a love crime? An indifference crime?

If the punishment is greater for killing someone who is of a different race than you, does that mean it's better to kill people that are the same race as you because we as a society consider it more acceptable and therefore punish it less?

(Emphasis added.)

Again with respect: you are getting tripped up in your own shorthanded rhetoric, . And I know you know better.

A so-called "hate crime" is not merely a crime in which the perpetrator hates the victim. So, no, the alternative is not a "love" crime.

Then you peg your sarcasm (as you know I have no problem with sarcasm per se) on a false premise: "if the punishment is greater for killing someone who is of a different race than you..." A difference in the racial identity of attacker and victim may be an element of a so-called "hate" crime, but it isn't sufficient and it isn't the crucial distinction. (I say "may" because I seem to recall that some courts are still dealing with the question of whether someone can commit a "hate crime" against another member of his own group. This may depend on how such a law is written.) In other words, murdering someone of a different race from yours may or may not be a hate crime; I also know you know that.

The term "hate crime" is shorthand, as you well know. It is used to reference laws that establish a special circumstance for crimes committed out of bigotry against certain, traditionally threatened groups. It does not require heated emotion on the part of the perpetrator, yet it requires more than that attacker and victim belong to different groups (if that).

I realize such laws seem messy, as they require the prosecutor to prove the defendant had a certain state of mind and I think we all know it's difficult to know what is in anyone's head. (This may be why it is easier to prosecute such crimes when violence is accompanied by speech acts that demonstrate the bigotry of the perpetrator. From what I understand so far, such speech may have been absent in the Belleville case.)

Hate crime laws are not unique in this: different charges of murder and manslaughter may also require a prosecutor, judge and jury to determine state of mind.

But I do understand why some people may find the idea unsettling. "Messy," as I said above. Unfortunately, justice in the real world is often messy.

And I've yet to hear of a better solution in areas where the law has not traditionally protected certain groups.
 
I didn't know there was a video until I clicked on last link (I saw the newest link on Drudge.com).

It is appalling that so many of our American youth are subjected to this savagery. I feel nothing for the perps but disgust and contempt (and I guess, --maybe-- as a compassionate human, I could feel a small degree of pity -- for their youth only). This is a complete breakdown of morality.
 
In this case, I have no idea how posters can state categorically that the beating was a hate crime just by watching that video.

Yet if the victim was black, it'd be automatically assumed that it was a hate crime, just from watching the video.
 
Exactly. A bus full of white students cheering on 2 white students beating a black student? Hate crime, hands down. Turn it around = no big deal, there are plenty of white folks, always will be.

Oh, come on, ! The all too common misperception that African-Americans get a free ride in this country at the expense of us poor, downtrodden white folks is beneath someone of your intelligence!

Momofboys is probably right: if the races in the video were reversed, we might well assume the event was racially motivated. But that is because of the terrible history in this country of white mob violence against blacks. Not just "ancient" history, mind you: we now know that mobs of white vigilantes shot and murdered black refugees in New Orleans after Katrina!

Yet assuming violence is a hate crime merely because of skin color would be just as premature as it is in this case.

Please note that I have never said this beating was NOT racially motivated. I don't know. I'm merely saying we can't know the motivation just because the victim's skin is lighter than that of his attackers. As I recall from my experience 40 years ago at a mostly white, semi-private high school, adolescent boys are prone to violent outbursts and high schools harbor all sorts of ever-shifting social cliques and feuds.

For all we know, the victim was attacked because he was perceived to be a "nerd" or he simply wasn't an athlete, or merely because he unknowingly violated some unspoken code of bus seating.

None of these motivations would excuse the violence, of course. But invoking this incident as "one more example" of how "blacks are getting away with stuff" is to impose one's own agenda on the event.
 
I am going to throw my :twocents: into this... Is this a "hate crime" or is this bullying? If the assault was against the same race would people be trying to classify this as a hate crime? I have seen school fights that are nothing more than bullying. My apologies before I am flamed by one of the guys on here but boys around that age tend to have a pack mentality driven by testosterone. (No offense to the guys on here.)

I am personally angry with a school that fails to protect the children regardless of their skin tone. I would lay wager that this is not the first assault the pack leader has instigated or been part of. I would also say it has been kids of the same race as well as any other victim. Bullies are bullies regardless of their skin!

I wish everyone saw people's skin color like my 9 nine year old. The first time she heard someone refer to someones skin color as black or white (she was around 4 or 5 yrs old)... She looked at me and said, "Mommy, they don't look like my crayons." She made me think... I never corrected that because she's right!!! I told her some people must be color blind. She still sees it that way and often will correct my friends or hers. MOO!
 
(respectfully snipped)

For all we know, the victim was attacked because he was perceived to be a "nerd" or he simply wasn't an athlete, or merely because he unknowingly violated some unspoken code of bus seating.

As far as I'm concerned, all violent crime is a hate crime. No one can look at that video and say that this was not a violent, hate crime whatever the reason the assailants targeted the one boy. This assault should not be diminished just because of the assailants' skin color or the victim's skin color. Hate doesn't have a color.
 
Oh, come on, ! The all too common misperception that African-Americans get a free ride in this country at the expense of us poor, downtrodden white folks is beneath someone of your intelligence!

Momofboys is probably right: if the races in the video were reversed, we might well assume the event was racially motivated. But that is because of the terrible history in this country of white mob violence against blacks. Not just "ancient" history, mind you: we now know that mobs of white vigilantes shot and murdered black refugees in New Orleans after Katrina!

Yet assuming violence is a hate crime merely because of skin color would be just as premature as it is in this case.

Please note that I have never said this beating was NOT racially motivated. I don't know. I'm merely saying we can't know the motivation just because the victim's skin is lighter than that of his attackers. As I recall from my experience 40 years ago at a mostly white, semi-private high school, adolescent boys are prone to violent outbursts and high schools harbor all sorts of ever-shifting social cliques and feuds.

For all we know, the victim was attacked because he was perceived to be a "nerd" or he simply wasn't an athlete, or merely because he unknowingly violated some unspoken code of bus seating.

None of these motivations would excuse the violence, of course. But invoking this incident as "one more example" of how "blacks are getting away with stuff" is to impose one's own agenda on the event.

Nova ~ I always read your posts with interest. I enjoy "hearing" what you have to say. I will not speak for everyone else, but I will explain why my initial reaction was similar to that of others in regards to the race issue. If the races had been reversed, I would say more likely than not, two very key African-American men would have become involved and been screaming to the media and anyone who would listen. However, the silence in this case, where it was African-American's who did the beating, is deafening. After I experience my initial reactions, I attempt to look at events from other viewpoints and see different theories, which is why I love this site. In my opinion, I believe the two men I referred to previously, have done more to strain race relations than anyone else. Their jumping into situations that may not be racial, and making them racial, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As I said, I will not speak for anyone else on this board, but I do know people in my own life, of all different races and ethnicities, who feel the same way. I think, at least for me, that is where the sense of "unfairness" with hate crimes comes in.

I am not sure I explained myself as well as I would have liked, but I hope I was effectively able to get my point across.
 
Of course, hate crime laws are ridiculous in theory. But violent crimes don't take place in theory, they take place in the real world where the race, religion, gender and/or sexuality of attacker and victim SHOULDN'T matter, but all too often DO. And hate crime legislation is an attempt to rectify injustice in areas where crimes motivated by prejudice have traditionally been under-reported, under-investigated and under-prosecuted.

Such laws are ridiculous, but until we create a theoretically perfect world, they are better than nothing. And a successful prosecution requires proof beyond reasonable doubt that the attack was motivated by a form of bigotry targetted by the law. It isn't enough that the attacker or victim just belong to different groups.

In this case, I have no idea how posters can state categorically that the beating was a hate crime just by watching that video.

IMO, domestic abuse/murder is the most prevalent under-reported, under-investigated and under-prosecuted "hate" crime but it isn't considered important enough to be covered by hate crime laws. There is something inherently wrong with laws that elevate one victim over another because of race or religion. It's more than ridiculous, it's just plain wrong.

And gender, IIRC, is not included in federal hate crime laws, although some states may include it. If it were, every rape would include an additional hate crime charge because the victim is almost always selected because of his or her gender.
 
I'm not sure we should be focusing on hate crime LAWS so much as hate CRIMES. I do believe this was a racially motivated crime. I also believe that many people commit crimes out of indifference or complete lack of humanity.

When I was a kid, most of the fights in which I was involved were the result of standing up for others. I was rarely the target, but if I saw someone else being victimized, I ran into the middle of it without a second thought. It may be a much different world now, but I would still do the same. The bullies that beat this boy are horrific to me. But those who stood by laughing or egging on the beaters or doing nothing to help the victim are the ones that frighten me the most. These are the same type of people that follow Hitlers. THAT is scary. IMHO.
 
I truly do not understand what difference there is between a hate crime or a "regular crime". First, if you commit a crime, there should be a punishment attached. If you are a caucasion and you beat a black person, you should be punished. If you are a black person and you beat a white person, you should be punished. We can divide this scenario a zillion different ways, but my point is, if you hurt someone, anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation, color, religion, or whether or not their mother wears spandex, you should be punished!

In this particular case, the beaten boy is a caucasion. The aggressors are not caucasion. Does it really matter? The attack was IMO savage. The victim did not appear to retaliate. The aggressors didn't use "like force" (as we expect our law enforcement to use?) They continued beating a person who couldn't or didn't fight back. IMO, there is no excuse. Hate or no hate, racial or not racial, it doesn't matter. The aggressors should be locked up- those cheering the fight on IMO, are also aggressors.

I am sorry if my opinion(s) have offended anyone, I am absolutely sick of living in a world that is divided by color, race, sexual orientation, class, etc...
 
And the use of straw men and hyperbole is below yours, which is why I don't respond to them.

That's half fair, . You're right to the extent that that particular remark was not a logical argument (straw-man or otherwise) requiring response.

It was, however, my perception of feelings expressed in your post and those of others here.

What is not fair is your accusation of hyperbole. Even if it were accurate (and that's a matter of opinion), who started the exaggerated speech? Who claimed that crimes against white people don't matter because there are always some more of us around? (Please see your post above.)
 
I am going to throw my :twocents: into this... Is this a "hate crime" or is this bullying? If the assault was against the same race would people be trying to classify this as a hate crime? I have seen school fights that are nothing more than bullying. My apologies before I am flamed by one of the guys on here but boys around that age tend to have a pack mentality driven by testosterone. (No offense to the guys on here.)....

Rather than just hitting the "thank you" button, crystal, I want to say I am "one of the guys on here" and I totally agree with your entire post (not just the part excerpted here).
 
As far as I'm concerned, all violent crime is a hate crime. No one can look at that video and say that this was not a violent, hate crime whatever the reason the assailants targeted the one boy. This assault should not be diminished just because of the assailants' skin color or the victim's skin color. Hate doesn't have a color.

I agree with you -- which is why "hate crime" is a poor nickname for the sort of law we are discussing.
 
Nova ~ I always read your posts with interest. I enjoy "hearing" what you have to say. I will not speak for everyone else, but I will explain why my initial reaction was similar to that of others in regards to the race issue. If the races had been reversed, I would say more likely than not, two very key African-American men would have become involved and been screaming to the media and anyone who would listen. However, the silence in this case, where it was African-American's who did the beating, is deafening. After I experience my initial reactions, I attempt to look at events from other viewpoints and see different theories, which is why I love this site. In my opinion, I believe the two men I referred to previously, have done more to strain race relations than anyone else. Their jumping into situations that may not be racial, and making them racial, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As I said, I will not speak for anyone else on this board, but I do know people in my own life, of all different races and ethnicities, who feel the same way. I think, at least for me, that is where the sense of "unfairness" with hate crimes comes in.

I am not sure I explained myself as well as I would have liked, but I hope I was effectively able to get my point across.

I think you explain yourself very well indeed, Lyn.

You and I might not always agree about the behavior of the activists to whom you refer (I give them considerable leeway on the ground that "to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs"). But we can debate that another time.

More important here, I think, is your point that many of our reactions to this issue have more to do with media coverage of it than the law itself. Of course, the two intersect: the law is not immune to public perception, and so-called "hate crime laws" are enacted in part to change that perception.

But though the media gives a lot of attention to a few "squeaky wheels," I think we should avoid the assumption that African-Americans as a whole get a lot of special considerations.
 
I will preface my remarks by saying that I am a native and lifelong Caucasian-American citizen of the "Gret Stet of Loosiana." Yes, we have many problems in our state, and yes, there have been many incidents since the 1960s (post Jim Crow) that have been perceived as racially motivated against African-Americans. I have some theories as to why specifically Louisiana has more explosive events than other states, but that is for another forum, not this one.

However, ladies and gentlemen, there is another side to this coin. And for today, I am going to speak bluntly.

I am going to tell you the story of a small town (population approximately 2000) in North Louisiana. When I was growing up in the 1960s and 1970s this is where we went most frequently "to town." We banked there, bought gas there, shopped for groceries, clothes, shoes and other household needs. We saw the doctor there and patronized one of the drugstores. We would occasionally get a hamburger at one of the local drive-ins. We would order things from the Sears catalog and pick them up at the outlet store (located in one of the shoe stores.) There was a feed store, a DMV, the local power company office. If someone died, we used one of the funeral homes and we ordered flowers from one of the florists. We went to the eye doctor there. We even went to the "locker plant," the local slaughterhouse that rented you freezer space for the cattle and hogs you had butchered for your meat. There was a garment factory, sawmills and other small industries providing jobs. You had your car fixed at the local garage. You played school sports against this town's teams and Little League games too. My husband grew up and went to school in this town during this era. He and his friends played in the shady yards and rode their bikes to main street for an Icee on hot summer days. They camped out in the woods behind the town's streets. All of this was done without a worry, completely carefree. Few Caucasian-Americans sent their children to private schools.

Looking back, I realize now that de facto segregation still existed to some degree. The school was integrated, but in the businesses we seldom saw an African-American person who wasn't at work in one of the businesses (not at the front counters, but behind the scenes). The African-Americans lived on the outskirts of the town on two sides and the Caucasian-Americans lived in the central part of town. My husband and I started school in the year that the schools were integrated in our parish and we didn't know about the civil rights protests or MLK or any of these things. To us, African-American students were just fellow schoolmates.

We had no idea we were about to witness a great clash of cultures as the 1970s waned. Sometime around 1980, low-income, public housing was built for the first time in this small town. At first, the apartments were neat, orderly and clean. They were such a success, that several other complexes quickly were built. The situation quickly deteriorated into squalor and crime. The majority of residents of these complexes were and are African-Americans. You can ride by and through these apartments today and drugs are sold openly, people of all races, gender and ages not working, drinking one beer at a time, in broad daylight. You cannot drive down any of the streets without being blocked by African-Americans deliberately walking slowly in the middle of the road, in apparent attempts to show that they don't have to get out of your way. The city hall was robbed several years ago and the library has been burglarized. Needless to say, all of the businesses I mentioned above are now gone and there is one filthy grocery store and one filthy dollar store and a couple of beer/convenience stores. White flight has taken place and the African-Americans are now the majority in this town. Most Caucasian-Americans I know are apprehensive and careful when they do shop or do business in this town.

To make this long story shorter, I will end by saying that the entitlement programs created and mandated by the federal government have resulted in a large underclass of African-Americans who seemingly have no will to pay their own way, no moral mandate to take care of their children, an overwhelming propensity to violence toward one another and other races, addictions run rampant, thievery is openly accepted, the school is a place of violence and inferior academic achievement, and baby mommas and baby daddies abound. And even worse, to me, these trends have spread to some Caucasian-Americans. The cry of Jobs! is the politicians' answer, but the truth is that these persons don't want jobs, they want to keep riding the entitlement train. This is sickening to me. This is not what the USA should be.

This is the story of one small town, but it is also the story of a multitude of American communities, from the tiny village to the giant metropolis.

Throwing more money at this problem is not the answer but I will honestly say that I don't know what the answer is. It makes me fear for our country, truly.

And as an aside to Nova, I would suggest you read a book called "The Great New Orleans Gun Grab: Descent into Anarchy" before you comment anymore about Katrina and its aftermath. Don't lay the blame for what happened at the feet of Caucasian-Americans and President Bush. Lay it where it belongs: With Mayor Nagin, Governor Blanco and the African-American citizens of greater New Orleans who rode the public housing/entitlement gravy train to the bitter end.

This post is not meant to offend anyone and is totally my story and my personal opinions.

, if you need to delete or move this post, I understand completely. I am just speaking the truth as I see it and as the U.S. Constitution guarantees my right to do so. Thanks.
 

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