IL IL - Dermot Kelly, 16, Oglesby, Jan 1972

[Satch]

1. Any chance Dermot left before this time? I agree about the 90 minute thing. I was wondering that before. Is it possible he was kicked out of the house?

2. Is it possible Dermot HAD been missing 72 hours? Or that perhaps 72 hours do not apply for someone who has a "mental health" history. I am not sure what the psych hold laws were at that time. But, if LGBT were considered criminals, etc...would police search sooner because of the (perceived) threat to society?

3. Not convinced about the weather...LOL. Here is a horrible story, but, it shows a bit about hypothermia, times, etc. Mind you these are small children, not 6'0 tall young men...

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005124225

4. I would love to know if Dermot gave away favorite possessions (typical with suicide) or what he left behind as well. I do have to say...sometimes people just walk away from their lives...Are we 100% certain Dermot did NOT stash other items somewhere in the woods?

Good Stuff!

We disagree on the weather, but agree on everything else! LOL! We should brainstorm. I don't think Dermot was kicked out of the house because he only had a jacket and rifle. Lucy, what do you think happend to him? Maybe your thoughts are close to the familly on the Mother's side hoping that Dermot is alive? Could you in your mind trace Dermot's steps that day? Or just not enough evidence yet?

Satch

 

[Satch]

Some excellent statistical data about cold weather, falling or going into water, hypothermia, and survival rates can be found here:

http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm

Satch

 

[LucyOso]

Good Stuff!

We disagree on the weather, but agree on everything else! LOL! We should brainstorm. I don't think Dermot was kicked out of the house because he only had a jacket and rifle. Lucy, what do you think happend to him? Maybe your thoughts are close to the familly on the Mother's side hoping that Dermot is alive? Could you in your mind trace Dermot's steps that day? Or just not enough evidence yet?

Satch

Satch...I am not sure what happened to him. I know the family thought he may have died until the sighting by the family doctor's wife in Chicago. (I think that was it). As for the weather thing...As a teenager, I had to leave a party in the middle of the night with -20 weather with wind chills making it -40. I was wearing a hippy skirt, a cotton sweater, a t-shirt and a pair of dress shoes. Long story. But, I walked 6 miles at 2:00 am in a very rural area to get home. All I can say is after about walking a football field, my beaded wire necklace snapped from the cold and beads flew everywhere. But, I did get home. I just kept moving and so I know what is possible in the cold...LOL. But, the weather isn't that big of a deal as we can agree to see it differently...But, I guess my thing is this: If there is a remote possibility he didn't die that day...I feel we should be comparing him to UIDs and trying to resolve his case...Especially if there is a DNA profile in the system.

 

[Satch]

If there is a remote possibility he didn't die that day...I feel we should be comparing him to UIDs and trying to resolve his case...Especially if there is a DNA profile in the system.

+1!

Satch

 

[Satch]

I found some information on the characteristics of suicide at this site:

http://www.sccenter.org/understanding.html

Common Characteristics of Suicide
From Definition of Suicide by Edwin Schneidman

The common stimulus for suicide is unendurable psychological pain. Faced with intolerable emotion and unacceptable anguish, people will sometimes opt for a cessation of consciousness. The core ambivalence in suicide reflects the conflict between survival and unbearable stress. The main clinical rule is: Reduce the suffering, often just a little bit, and the individual will choose to live.

The common stressor in suicide is frustrated psychological needs. Suicides are born, negatively, out of needs. Most suicides represent combinations of various needs. The clinical rule is: Address the frustrated needs and the suicide will not occur.

The common purpose of suicide is to seek a solution. Suicide is not a random act. It is a way out of a problem, dilemma, or crisis. It is the answer -- seemingly the only available answer -- to a real puzzler: How to get out of this? It is important to view each suicidal act as an urgently felt effort to answer a question, to resolve an issue, to solve a problem.

The common emotions in suicide are hopelessness and helplessness. Often people on the edge of committing suicide would be willing to live if things -- life -- were only a little bit better, a just noticeable difference. The common fear is that the inferno is endless and that one has to draw the line on one's suffering somewhere.

The common internal attitude toward suicide is ambivalence. Something can be both "A" and "not A." We can both love and hate the same person. A prototypical suicidal state is one in which the individual feels that she or he has to do it, and simultaneously yearns, and even plans, for rescue and intervention.

The common cognitive state in suicide is "constriction" (tunnel vision). Suicide cannot be understood as a psychosis, a neurosis, or a character disorder. It is a transient psychological constriction of affect and intellect. It is a narrowing of the range of options that leads to either/or thinking.

The common interpersonal act in suicide is communication of intention. The communication of suicidal intention is not always a cry for help. First, it is not always a cry; it can be a shout or a murmur or the nonverbal communication of something unspoken. The communication is not always for help; it can be for autonomy or any number of needs. Nonetheless, in most cases of suicide there is some interpersonal communication related to that intended final act.

The common action in suicide is egression or escape. Suicide is a death in which the decedent removes himself from intolerable pain and simultaneously from others in the world.

Suicide is consistent with lifelong coping patterns. "You can't fire me; I quit." "I'll leave her before she leaves me." Schneidman believes that suicide is not a random act, and sometimes is reasonably predictable.

.© 2011 The Suicide and Crisis Center of North Texas

******************************

The same site talks about signs of suicide:

http://www.sccenter.org/teens_signs.html

In the cases of the information above and below the ************* I highlighted those attributes in personality that MAY have (not necessarily do) apply to Dermot's case.

Signs of Suicide

Warning signs of suicide may include:

•Feelings of sadness or hopelessness
•Anxiety
•A decline in school performance
•Loss of interest in social and sports activities
•Sleeping too little or too much
•Changes in weight or appetite
•Giving away treasured possessions
•Inability to concentrate or think clearly
•Discouragement about the future
•An increase in drug or alcohol use
•Talk of "going away" or wanting to end it all
•Suddenly becoming very cheerful and happy after being depressed for a long time
.© 2011 The Suicide and Crisis Center of North Texas

It would be interesting to know Dermot's eating and sleeping habits leading up to that early afternoon of January 30, 1972. Did he give stuff away he loved, or lose interest in the things he loved? Even more so, what exactly Dermot did in those three days that led to his disappearance?

 

[LucyOso]

The common stimulus for suicide is unendurable psychological pain. Faced with intolerable emotion and unacceptable anguish, people will sometimes opt for a cessation of consciousness. The core ambivalence in suicide reflects the conflict between survival and unbearable stress. The main clinical rule is: Reduce the suffering, often just a little bit, and the individual will choose to live.


Also, suicide can often be perceived as a "selfless" act. Meaning if through communication with those around a person can feel the family, wife, etc REALLY would be better off without the person. They see themselves as stopping the pain of others. I know people say suicide is selfish, but, often people really think they are doing everyone a favor. Was Dermot so aware of how his beliefs and differences with the family could cause the rest to suffer? We have to get into the mind of a 16 year old...so...Would being gay ruin his dad's career? Would being gay or having spent time in a facility for mental health issues (because I can't think of another reason why he would miss so much school for a medical issue) marginalize his siblings at school? Is it easier to leave for good then to cause the family to suffer over the long term?


The common emotions in suicide are hopelessness and helplessness. Often people on the edge of committing suicide would be willing to live if things -- life -- were only a little bit better, a just noticeable difference. The common fear is that the inferno is endless and that one has to draw the line on one's suffering somewhere.

Shame and Marginalization can be motivators.

A prototypical suicidal state is one in which the individual feels that she or he has to do it, and simultaneously yearns, and even plans, for rescue and intervention.

Disagree. This is minimizing suicidal peoples feelings. This type of propaganda can be very harmful. In fact, a person is so disconnected at that point that yearning for a rescuer is long past their thoughts.


The common interpersonal act in suicide is communication of intention. The communication of suicidal intention is not always a cry for help. First, it is not always a cry; it can be a shout or a murmur or the nonverbal communication of something unspoken. The communication is not always for help; it can be for autonomy or any number of needs. Nonetheless, in most cases of suicide there is some interpersonal communication related to that intended final act.

Or lack of interpersonal communication. Maybe there is a dialog, but, not communication.

The common action in suicide is egression or escape. Suicide is a death in which the decedent removes himself from intolerable pain and simultaneously from others in the world.

Great misunderstanding here about suicide. Many of those who are suicidal often do it, not for "selfish" reasons as proposed by this author, but because the feel they are helping others by not being a burden. Yes, it is distorted, but, this author shows a lack of empathy.

Suicide is consistent with lifelong coping patterns. "You can't fire me; I quit." "I'll leave her before she leaves me." Schneidman believes that suicide is not a random act, and sometimes is reasonably predictable.

This is a horrible assumption and absolutely not true on many levels. Wow..They are confusing different types of behavioral issues and coping patterns and making a huge generalization. Also, for those who have other issues, equating them as markers or characteristics for suicide discourage people from seeking help.

The same site talks about signs of suicide:

http://www.sccenter.org/teens_signs.html

In the cases of the information above and below the ************* I highlighted those attributes in personality that MAY have (not necessarily do) apply to Dermot's case.

Signs of Suicide

Warning signs of suicide may include:

•Feelings of sadness or hopelessness Do we know this for a fact?
•Anxiety Are we sure? Would he even want to leave the house with the high level anxiety common with suicide?
•A decline in school performance
•Loss of interest in social and sports activities
•Sleeping too little or too much
•Changes in weight or appetite
•Giving away treasured possessions
•Inability to concentrate or think clearly
•Discouragement about the future There is a huge difference between wanting to start over and wanting to end ones life...
•An increase in drug or alcohol use
•Talk of "going away" Going away needs to be better defined. I don't get that from Dermot saying he wants to do it his way/on his own. Going away would be, you will be better off without me.
•Suddenly becoming very cheerful and happy after being depressed for a long time

It would be interesting to know Dermot's eating and sleeping habits leading up to that early afternoon of January 30, 1972. Did he give stuff away he loved, or lose interest in the things he loved? Even more so, what exactly Dermot did in those three days that led to his disappearance?I agree. We know so little. There are no medical records...especially because they were not required by law then...But, I am surprised Dermot would choose death by falling in a river...

I have entered my ideas in BOLD with yours...

 

[Satch]

I have entered my ideas in BOLD with yours...

Thanks!

In hindsight, there are too many generalizations in the article.

Satch

 

[Satch]

I wonder if the lead detective could be contacted on Dermot's case for his thoughts on the following:

1.) The arrangement of Dermot's clothes, boots, and jacket at the river?

2.) Thoughts on any family or home issues that we have talked about at WS in the investigation?

3.) Items of evidence found in the Kelly home that would give clues into Dermot's disappearance? Still believe that his journals or writings would speak VOLUMES as to what happened to him? What, if anything, was found in Dermot's room?

4.) Anything that Dermot may have given away recently leading up to his leaving him?

5.) Mood swings? In Dermot? In other family members? were there recent altercations with his father during the week leading up to that tragic day of January 30, 1972?

6.) Any outside communication that Dermot had with friends, or at the clinic where he was being treated? What about school?

7.) Communications with anybody in the entire family that indicated something was wrong? How well did Dermot relate to his siblings, to his Mother? The evidence shows, that relationships with Dad were stressed and painful for Dermot.

8.) Medication that Dermot may have been taking, and for what purpose? Names of medication and how often he took the meds or had been taking meds?

9.) What was Dermot like around the holidays? Such as Thanksgiving and Christmas of 1971? This could have been the time when he had just come out of the hospital or clinic, and if he was treated for "Conformity" therapy, Dermot might have felt really depressed or angry. Personally, I have always sensed such a strong emotional sensitivity about Dermot. Caring and kind, but I don't think happy all that often.

10.) Were any theories drawn up by LE working on Dermot's case as to what they think happened to him? For the record, WS have those four possibilities with divergent and facinating opinions:

A. Hypothermia
B. Suicide
C. Drowning
D. Left to Start New Life.

I would also like to know ALL the leads that have come up in Dermot's case. I found out that Dermot was compared to an UID victim of a Wisconsin train wreck, but nothing came of it

I want to thank everyone for their support of Dermot and staying strong in his case. May closure be found in the hopes of some comfort for his family, and of course for Dermot too, if he is alive that he is safe and happy!

Satch

 

[Satch]

This is some more information that I found out about hypothermia:

http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica fact file/science/cold_hypothermia.htm

Note however, that I am considering ANY AND ALL possabilities of what could have happened to Dermot. Poster LucyOso told us about walking about 6 miles in -20 below temps with light clothing similar to what Dermot had on. And there are other people and studies in the case that talk about the effects of hypothermia within minutes. Lucy, did you recall any effects from walking such a long distance? Such as frostbite or other issues?

Still thinking about the idea of any ship vessels that may have gone through that day or several days thereafter. However, keep in mind that Dermot may have not been on an "offical passenger list." if he hoped a freight or something, He may not have wanted tracks to be traced. He could have left to start a new life in this regard, and left behind his boots, jacket, and rifle in the water, so that the family would believe that he had died.

I still believe that things had to be pretty turbulent in Dermot's home and family for him to want to leave. Dermot has a special place in my heart, because I grew up with a great deal of emotional sensitivity and loved music, philosophy, and writing. I think Dermot and I if we would have had a chance to know each other, would have been extremely close friends! I think Dermot's inner sensitivity, and natural curiosity about social issues, as well as him being a great empathetic listener, shows wit, insight, and a natural longing for peace, love, and understanding. There are many things about Dermot that are very nurturing, kind, and heroic!

Over time, as this thread continues to evolve, I want to learn more about the things Dermot loved. If any WS people out there remember anything about the case, knew Dermot, knew the family, any events leading up to that tragic day of January 30, 1972, please feel free to post! It will help everyone find some closure!

A few weeks ago, I was thinking about one of my favorite movies from the 80's, The Breakfast Club, and I re-saw it again not too long ago. I think there are things in that movie to which Dermot could relate in his own life. He just seems like the kind of person who would be warm and kind to anyone who cared about him, and could relate to his experiences. We miss you, Dermot!

Satch

 

[Satch]

I hear ya. I think sometimes parents believe they are guiding their offspring, but their approach may not work on certain children. It actually makes the situation worse. Dermot's siblings may have handled Mr. Kelly's wrath better, but it was probably too heavy handed for Dermot's temperament. My dad was similar to Mr. Kelly in certain ways, but his treatment of me was similar to all of my closest (age) siblings. We had each other to vent and empathize with, which helped us heal. We were all in the same boat. We actually came to each others aid after our dad took a fit on one of us. Maybe, Dermot was singled out by his dad or he wasn't close with his siblings, or perhaps, he wasn't close in age with them, so there was a disconnect. Maybe, Dermot didn't have anyone to talk to or lean on when things got rough. JMO

I was once told that Dermot's Dad had a bad temper and once attacked someone in his law firm. This is a very sad and frightening situation, because if something like that happened with an unrelated family member, maybe frighteningly, Dermot could have been abused.

Such a situation would have made Dermot's need to leave more understandable. It makes me so sad, sometimes even with tears if I think about it long enough that such a great kid like Dermot had so much pain in his life, with no one to help him.

I think Dermot longed for anyone who was willing to care and listen to his ideas and points of view. I don't think he had a lot of privacy. Even if the Kelly's may have lived in a big house. And with an emotional sensitive gentlemen like Dermot, you have to give him his space. Dermot was very sensitive and caring. However, he also needed freedom from a troubled family and home-life, which Dermot believed (IMO) that he could only get freedom and space by leaving home and family, for good.

If he survived or had he survived, I think he might have sought a career as a writer, poetry, philosopher, maybe even an artist, or painter. Maybe even a Social Work/Helping profession. And with his academic smarts, creativity, and empathy, he could share and listen so much about his troubled past, or relate to others with their own troubled pasts. His counseling and consoling skills would be amazing!

I once posted that the truth of what happened to Dermot in clues hides behind closed doors. I think Dermot has (or had) the keys to unlock all of those closed doors. Dermot would be the kind of person where if you and he could confide and respect each other, he could say everything that happened and why. Not only just to have another caring person to whom he could discuss so much in his life, but to have the chance to speak kindly to others about the things in his life, to console others, maybe give advice in a caring way to help people facing similar conflicts in their own lives and families.

The evidence of Dermot's empathy and love for many of the things I enjoy as well, is what keeps me driven to his case.

Satch

 

[Satch]

Cubby, I don't believe Dermot's dna is submitted. At one time I thought he might be the male half of the two UIDs in Sumter, SC. I called Oglesby, PD. Their statement was that Dermot only had one living sister, parents deceased, and the last time they tried to get her to provide a dna sample she refused. Now if that's not true, then Dermot's sister needs to contact Oglesby, PD, and get this done.

In light of the above information. (This was back from a post I think in 2010.) Dermot's dad passed away in 2003. Dermot was not mentioned in his obit. Dermot's Mother passed away just last year, 2011. Dermot was listed as a survivor in his Mother's obit.

I think about Dermot's case very often, and the overwhelming pain and sadness that it must have caused for the family, and certainly for Dermot! I think living in that house was a painful living hell for him. A strict, hot-tempered authoritarian father, who's forced conservative beliefs, that he wanted for his children went against everything that Dermot believed in. Dermot's interest in the hippie movement, the liberal ideals of the 60's-70's which Dermot lived and took in every day throughout his life, he may have seen as confined to a prison-like environment in the following ways:

1.) For Dermot everything in his home, school and family life was authoritarian and conservative in family, school, and church belief systems. As long as Dermot remained in his home or school environment, he could never be truly "free."

2.) I firmly believe that as good a student as Dermot was, that for his father, it was never "Good Enough." If for example he brought home a report card with 3 B+'s and one A-, I could see Dad criticizing him, "Is that the best you can do?"

3.) My suspicion is that Dermot's Mother was very loving and kind, but may not have been able to speak up certain concerns about Dermot for fear of rejection and anger from her husband. At the same time, it is possible that Dermot's father may have bonded close with his other children, provided that they did not question his views, and achieved the type of success that "Dad" demanded. It is likely that Dermot was seen, or thought of himself as the "Black Sheep of the family."

4.) I contend that someday evidence will be uncovered that will tell us exactly what happened to Dermot on that tragic January 30, 1972 day. Notes or journals in his room or in the home, with home he confided (if anybody) in the months and days leading up to his disappearance. Even the evidence found at the river, such as finding out whether that rifle had a bullet lodged in the casing, or how Dermot's boots and coat were found, would say so much.

5.) We have lost (or at the very least can't find) a person who appeared to have so much empathy, love, and compassion. I also think about if the same set of circumstances that we know about Dermot's case had happened in 2012, instead of 1972, could he have been talked into not leaving, or gotten some help. In hindsight, Dermot may have also been a very lonely person who just wanted a compassionate friend who could listen to his ideas without criticism. Who knows? Maybe a home and educational lifestyle without all the pressures and demand could have helped this "gentle" man.

Satch

 

[Satch]

Hi Everybody,

Has anyone contacted Doe Network to inquire why Dermot's case is not in the database? The new information that we learned from Dan's article, would be of help to get that out to as many missing persons places as possible. I always keep hope that someone may know something, or at least new evidence could trigger a memory as to what happened to Dermot.

Thanks everybody!

Satch

 

[LucyOso]

Hi Everybody,

Has anyone contacted Doe Network to inquire why Dermot's case is not in the database? The new information that we learned from Dan's article, would be of help to get that out to as many missing persons places as possible. I always keep hope that someone may know something, or at least new evidence could trigger a memory as to what happened to Dermot.

Thanks everybody!

Satch

Good question! I can google this page.... http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/disappear.html
But, the link is broken from here...

 

[Satch]

Hi everyone,

Thinking about Dermot's case tonight. Ideas going through my head. I wanted to ask some sort of statistical questions, three actually:

1.) We know about Dermot's immense interest in the hippie movement culture. When people like Dermot left home to start a new life in the 60's-70's because they just could not deal with home and family anymore, we know that many left to join the hippie movement. To find peace, love, and acceptance in a community of coming together. How many people left home for weeks, months, years at a time, and later it turned out that they were found and had joined the hippie movement? Were there a lot of people that never reconnected back with their families and never came home? Did some leave for only short periods of time to join the hippie movement and than come back to their families? I wonder if the hippie movement followers wrote letters and made phone calls, to their families during the separation?

2.) The second question is a very sad and tragic one, based on the river evidence in Dermot's case that suggest a possible drowning. Is there statistical data over the years of people who drown in river/lack accidents and are never found? Or in most drownings. is a body found?

3.) I'll throw in a third question. How many people die each year on average of hypothermia?

Writing these questions is so emotional for me, for many of us, following Dermot's case. I want to examine the case from all aspects. If Dermot has passed away, the importance of closure and peace for those involved in his case. If Dermot is living, the hope that he is safe and happy and that his journeys in life bring him peace and love, wherever he may be. I also want to write about and talk about some uplifting things regarding how Dermot's beliefs and courage could bring about hope and happiness for others who came from a troubled home life. I think Dermot's empathy would be such a loving and guiding force to those who know him, that if given the chance he would do anything to listen and understand their feelings, to search for happiness, fulfillment and freedom.

Thank you for your thoughts everyone on Dermot's case. A great man's search for love, peace, and acceptance, that will NEVER die!

Satch

 

[LucyOso]

1.) We know about Dermot's immense interest in the hippie movement culture. When people like Dermot left home to start a new life in the 60's-70's because they just could not deal with home and family anymore, we know that many left to join the hippie movement. To find peace, love, and acceptance in a community of coming together. How many people left home for weeks, months, years at a time, and later it turned out that they were found and had joined the hippie movement? Were there a lot of people that never reconnected back with their families and never came home? Did some leave for only short periods of time to join the hippie movement and than come back to their families? I wonder if the hippie movement followers wrote letters and made phone calls, to their families during the separation?

I think it was very common for people during this time to "move on" with their lives and "drop out". Personally, when I think about the people I have known over the years or even cousins, I always think "oh, I will call or write". Next thing you know, 2 or 3 or 20 years have passed and the good intention of making contact gets crowded out by the demands and priorities of life. Plus, back then it wasn't like you could send a message on facebook while waiting at the doctors office. LOL. There are many people on the Doe Network who never even knew they were reported missing or they were found 30-40 years later and didn't want to be. I think the thing with Dermot, if he is out there or was, is he wouldn't make contact. If he followed the news and was reported dead, why would he reinjure his mother by letting her know he was alive for years and just didn't want anything to do with the family. I do not live Dermot is still alive. I do not think he died in the river, I think that was staged either by him or his father. By Dermot to disappear and relieve his family of the shame of him or by his father because they may have locked him in a mental institution....Back to the point. Yes. People do lose contact with family and it is not malicious or intentional...life just happens.

2.) The second question is a very sad and tragic one, based on the river evidence in Dermot's case that suggest a possible drowning. Is there statistical data over the years of people who drown in river/lack accidents and are never found? Or in most drownings. is a body found?

I would say...more often than not a body is found. Maybe not right away, but, within the next 6 months in a fresh water drowning. I know there is the possibility a barge may have entombed him in the mud. But, my feeling son this case have been, no body...keep looking. Mainly, because the evidence has not been there to say otherwise. Maybe if I had pictures of the scene and could see how the clothes/shoes were, the snow levels, etc I may think that.

3.) I'll throw in a third question. How many people die each year on average of hypothermia?

My guess is 1000's of people die of hypothermia annually. But, statistics can be very misleading as well. For example, elderly people are very much at risk. So, a hypothermia death because a 80 year old could not pay the gas bill and died in their home would be included in those stats. Also, people who die while mountaineering...think Mt. Ranier, Mt. Hood, Everest, K2. You also see people disabled by stroke, elderly people by slipping breaking hips, drunk people who pass out and auto accidents who eventually die from exposure. So, how do we qualify and quantify those deaths. A young healthy male not loaded on drugs or booze who is walking around, has a good chance of getting home or what not compared with a 90lb cachexic (frail) old lady who falls in her backyard and has to wait until the neighbors come to hopefully save her.

Anyway...My personal thoughts are that we should look at UID's. There is enough doubt of his passing that is is worth looking for matches. We both keep coming back to this and I think we should go with the un-ease we feel about him drowning that day and pursue this further.


If there is no DNA on file, perhaps that can be researched tactfully as to why. It is possible that the sister was not cooperative because maybe the approach of the police department was not sensitive, was abrasive or offended her. It is possible the DNA was just never obtained and somewhere down the road, someone heard from someone who heard from someone, the sister wouldn't do it and that is the story.

 

[Satch]

Quote from Lucy Oso:

I do not live Dermot is still alive. I do not think he died in the river, I think that was staged either by him or his father. By Dermot to disappear and relieve his family of the shame of him or by his father because they may have locked him in a mental institution....

Interesting!

I know Dermot's father had a very strict temper, but never thought of his Dad possibly staging the scene. That seems a stretch I can't say his Dad did that. However, Mr. Kelly certainly had his personality and cultural clashes with Dermot. I would say a stronger possibility of Dermot's staging the scene to be free of his Dad's wrath. Some people who followed the case over the years are just as insistent that Dermot committed suicide, and for those who subscribe to that theory, they could believe that Dermot had to do it, because if Dad found him, he would be forced to go back home, (until he was 18) and Dermot could not take almost two more years of his father's no-nonsense authority. Dermot thinking, "If I am found, I have no legal recourse to live on my own. Dad as an attorney would force me legally to go back home to more BS, and I can't take that anymore." Being driven to suicide is likely IF other elements of the case were found to be correct. Of course, hypothermia may have still affected his state of mind, especially if he was down and depressed. I have not ruled out the accident theory either. However, I believe that father Kevin Kelly, may have been a leading cause as to why Dermot choose to leave.

For example, IF Dermot was indeed found to be gay, sent at his Dad's demands for "non-conforming theory" about 90 miles away to Chicago to "straighten up and fly right." If they gave controversial shock treatment to this poor kid for four to six weeks, which was the general amount of time for these very controversial methods, this type of treatment would have created such pain and heartbreak for him, akin in Dermot's mind to the horror of a Concentration Camp.

Now, we don't know for sure that Dermot was sent to conforming theory, but I checked maps. Chicago, where Dermot was sent for "medical treatment?" is at least 90 miles away for a good 2 hr drive. Now, why would a family drive their son 90 miles away for at least 3-5 weeks for "treatment" unless this type of treatment was something that Dermot could not get back home in Ogelsby? There had to be something unique or needed in Chicago for a family to drive him such a long distance over the course of at least a month. Unless the family had specialized regular doctors for the kids, but when you are talking about Dermot missing a month (or more) of classes in the Fall of 1971 for "treatment?" Most problems that would take that amount of time, and distance away from home, had to be something severe where the methods were not available close by. Lets say that Dermot was not gay and there was no controversial treatment given to him, (which could still be the case.) Even if they sent him to a psychologist or psychiatrist, you mean that the only good one is over 90 miles away?

Presumed driving twice a week back and forth for at least a month? There almost had to be some kind of in-patient hospitalization issues involved here, perhaps the family staying at a hotel during this time. However, the more you think about it, and the circumstances above, I think it is extremely likely that Dermot was a part of this very controversial method, Conforming Therapy. And for his father to not even mention Dermot in his obituary, there is such a coldness, a heartless act for Mr. Kelly to do this!

The possibility of going to some "treatment?" clinic, getting shock-treatment for "behavior correction?" I read in the articles that Lucy posted about elsewhere in this thread about how painful it was for people, and there were cases that it drove patients who participated in these programs to suicide. This is devastating! Everything! Every thing about these programs, his father's ultra-strict conservative views, hot tempered personality goes against all the peace, love, and hope that Dermot sought and never found in his home life. It appears that his Mother's side of the family was more understanding of what Dermot wanted out of life.

Through all that Dermot suffered in that home, the painful question is, what else could he do, but leave? Everywhere Dermot went at that time was a conflict against what he wanted to be. The school and church values went against everything Dermot believed, Dermot's father and he was a constant battle of friction and pain on both sides, there's no privacy for him, or very little, in a home with four other siblings. Dermot's love of reading and his music were a form of escapism from the troubles and conflict in his family life. The devastation that his poor Mother must of felt, and probably the other kids, is behold comprehension! I just wonder deep down they may blame Dermot's dad's temper and personality as a main reason for Dermot's leaving? Dermot simply HAD to flee, to be free!

I'll also open the thread up for some rhetorical questions, if the circumstances were today instead of 1972, what types of help services and support networks could have "saved" Dermot? Given this man's sensitivity, wit, and compassion, I think he would certainly be welcomed and loved by family and friends who shared his ideas! There would be lines of people waiting to adopt a kid like this!!!!

Based on the circumstantial evidence, and I don't think I am that for off, the only real "problem" in the family, at least from Dermot's perspective, was " Dad."

Satch

 

[Satch]

Hey everyone,

Is there a way that we could find out Dermot's social security number to use this as a reference point to see when it was used last? Maybe some communication with the detective assigned to Dermot's case would help. But that might be privileged information, I don't know.

I mean, if his SS number has been used in recent years, I think it would indicate that he is still out there. If it has not been used in many years, or worse, since he disappeared, we may be looking at a potentially tragic situation.

I have often wondered, how long a person could go without using their SS number? Could they change this number if they wanted to do so?

What do you all think about this?

With the holidays here, I have a special place in my heart for Dermot and really hope that there is a way that if he is out there, he will make contact with those who love him and miss him.

Satch

Hey everyone!

How ya doing? I remember that I posted the above awhile back and I learned that a lot of people did not get Social Security numbers back than. BUT I just thought of this. IF Dermot is (or was) out there wouldn't he have to have a Social Security number when he turned 18 to be able to vote, and hold title deeds to properly. You would have to GET a Social Security number eventually, right?

I wonder if there would be a way, even on-line to look up Social Security information in the United States? Maybe for security, people could not do that, but maybe a moderator or administrator of the forum, though the excellent work of this website, could contact the powers that be in Ogelsby or LaSalle County and run a social security check for Dermot.

We could find out so much from this, and it could bring about some new evidence. For instance consider the following:

A check that shows he used his SS number after January 30, 1972 shows that he survived that day.

A check if a SS number was issued for Dermot would show when it was last used. That could help determine whether or not he is still living.

Property Searches and Title Deeds? Could they be searched with SS# information?

The point being that Dermot although he may not have had a SS# at birth, he would have to have one to vote, and as an astute student in the studies of the hippie movement and and interest in social and political changes, like peace movements for example, Dermot would certainly be interested in voting and being involved in the political process! I would assume he would have to have a SS# to do that, and get one to do that if he didn't have one.

What about expanding it nationally in terms of an SS# search?

Now here is the big question? Let's say Dermot did indeed stage his disappearance to free himself from the wraith of his ultra-strict, hot-tempered father. Could a 16 year old kid change his name to make himself so private that no one would be able to find him by name? Or would Dermot have to wait until he was 18 to do that? For any LE experts, what would Dermot have to prove or do to change his name? You can't just do that without a reason, can you?

If Dermot did a name change, than any kind of database search is moot. There seem to be at least at the time, a lot of kids that look like Dermot, where they have the dark-blond hair and have it extended off to the side like that. I don't recall any distinguishing characteristics or bodily features that would make Dermot stand out. But I remember that a few years ago, there were a couple of UID's that looked like him, but no one has ever been able to confirm it was him.

I also was unable to find more information about a UID who died in a Wisconsin train wreck who was compared to Dermot, but could not be identified. All options are open. Although I lean toward death in the river that horrible day, I also agree that as long as no body has been found, and Dermot remains officially missing, it is our duty to keep looking!

I think closure will come. It may not be for a long time, and it might not be pleasant. Cubby warned us about this. However, I think closure will come.

Satch

PS. His Birthday is next week. (July 27) On that special day, I thought it would be cool if we did sort of a tribute to him. Thinking of Dermot, wherever he may be as a celebration of life! Through words we can show that people still care and that he is not forgotten! Some people might say, Oh, why go through that? You never know what might come about through this. The board is still about people coming together to bring about hope and closure for the missing. Hope and closure that Dermot, and for those who know/knew him, is still strong and inspiring! Thanks all.

 

[Satch]

In thinking and reflecting on Dermot's birthday today in celebration of his life, I present the following as a retrospective of how he may have thought about life, people, and whom I believe sought to find peace and love:

D- For Dermot's dedication and devotion to humanitarian efforts.
E- For his empathy and engergy in pursuing his goals and dreams.
R- For his resiliance to find truth and meaning in life.
M- For his motivation and mentoring abilities.
O- For his optimism and courage to find a better life.
T- For his tenderness, compassion, and sensitivity to many.

May Dermot Kelly never be forgotten as he had so many great qualities and abilities. Reflecting on the excellence of his character for his special day!

Satch

 

[Satch]

In thinking and reflecting on Dermot's birthday today in celebration of his life, I present the following as a retrospective of how he may have thought about life, people, and whom I believe sought to find peace and love:

D- For Dermot's dedication and devotion to humanitarian efforts.
E- For his empathy and engergy in pursuing his goals and dreams.
R- For his resiliance to find truth and meaning in life.
M- For his motivation and mentoring abilities.
O- For his optimism and courage to find a better life.
T- For his tenderness, compassion, and sensitivity to many.

May Dermot Kelly never be forgotten as he had so many great qualities and abilities. Reflecting on the excellence of his character for his special day!

Satch

Just to reflect more on the above. I think Dermot really hated that his family, (especially his Dad) was so strict with success-driven ideologies and the prospect of power, and winning to get ahead. It seemed that many in the Kelly family were insisted to succeed. It's not necessarily that Dermot didn't like success. He was smart, and empathetic. However, he saw what the constant pressures of success can do to people. I think there were demands in his family not to fail, and very strict rules about homework, maybe even TV restrictions for the kids.

I think Dermot's Dad saw this constant drive to get ahead as not only insisting on "doing things his way, because that's the way its done. (in his father's eyes.) This constant friction with such opposing views made Dermot very, very unhappy for a very long time. Dermot strikes me as the kind of guy who would rather be a poor and happy writer and poet than say a stressed out lawyer or doctor. Dermot I don't think cared about money, fame, and power. He'd shine shoes, sell magazines, be a hot dog vendor, assist a food pantry. You know, charity things for love and kindness.

And I think when Dermot likely turned 14 or so, and may have had words with Dad and the family about these things, it drove his father to get insane about the kind of life Dermot sought. I think there were a good two years of conflict and pain between Dermot and his Dad, and maybe other family members as well. And I think Dermot was/is heroic for working so hard to find peace and love in a turmoil environment. I just can't say enough good things about Dermot for his empathy and courage!

Satch

 

[Satch]

The likely friction that Dermot had with his father reminds me of a friend with whom I went to college. "Josh" (not his real name) lived with a very strict ultra-conservative Roman-Catholic Father, who was very mentally abusive to his son. (Possible physical abuse may have occurred as well.) At any rate, "Josh" went along with believing Conservative ideals because his father forced him into those beliefs. It was the only way that they could share any sort of pleasant conversation. "Josh" even worked at the school newspaper, and watched conservative programs to please his father. "Josh" was sort of a loner in high-school, unlike Dermot, he didn't have very good grades or the kind of empathy and sensitivity Dermot had. "Josh" was into roll-playing games, D & D stuff and was often picked on because his clothes didn't match, when he talked he always wound up saying the wrong things and got bullied a lot because of it. "Josh" lived in a word of negativity with an ultra-strict authoritarian father.

As "Josh" started college, he began to hate conservative ideals more and more, and had severe blow ups with his father, everything was a put down, and politics turned into a screaming match. "Josh" got so angry that he became an atheist because over the years, he thought that if there was a God, why didn't he save him from the life that his father forced upon him? He also became an atheist I believe, to rebel against his father's conservative views, because "Josh's" Dad's views got to the point where he could not take it anymore.

"Josh" said once that he felt compelled to accept his father's views early on and starting college because if he didn't, he feared Dad would throw him out of the house. What's really sad is that the economy has forced "Josh" to remain living with his father and the stress is overwhelming!

I think Dermot could have empathized with "Josh" in a big way! Although we still don't know what happened to Dermot back on January 30, 1972, Dermot's case and "Josh's" situation paint a much bigger picture of so many children and adults who have or had parental turmoil in their homes. For Dermot, the few materialist things that he loved:

Music
Books
Writing
The Hippie Movement

All these things represented a form of escape. The ultimate escape for Dermot was freedom from family and the turbulent expectations that surrounded him every day, every night for almost seventeen years. In contrast, for people like "Josh" freedom and escape is not so easy.

I think Dermot sought the empathetic qualities in himself and wanted with all his heart to give those attributes to other people who may have suffered misfortune and pain in their own lives. I think BOTH "Josh" and Dermot were not loved, especially once their fathers' realized that there political views and expectations became total opposite of what each belied.

I remember a quote that is fitting from a "Leave it to Beaver" episode from Ward Cleaver that said something like, "We can't expect to get our children's love, until we first get their respect." When I think about "Josh's" situation and Dermot's situation, both kids with ultra-authoritarian fathers, I think that quote is immensely powerful.

Satch