IL IL - Lane Bryant Murders, Tinley Park, 2 Feb 2008

[Userid]

That possibility has been brought up before so I’ve considered it. I think it’s possible but not probable. That would add to his risk to leave the store, go into the parking lot, move a car, and then reenter. All that with 6 people taped up by the back door plus someone could have came into the store while he was gone.

The police would know where she parked and they asked about those two cars specifically. If she hadn’t came forward by March 18 then one of those two vehicles could have been her. We don’t know when she came forward though (as far as I know). The first mention of her is July 18, 2008 that I can find. The way the article is worded makes it seem like police have known about her for awhile.

True, but desperation would have forced his hand. I don't think his car was that far from the entrance (compared to where he initially parked), but far enough to make it difficult to drag a duct-taped hostage. Was the SUV of interest "backed-in" to the spot, do we know?

 

[Userid]

Also if he did go into the lot and move the suv, he’s back between 10:38 and 10:39 because that’s when the suv first shows up in the Target photo.

Just to clarify: I don't think he went very far in order to re-park his car. He may have initially parked in that area where the victims' cars where, for example -- but suddenly wanted to pull the car up as close to the building as he possibly could, in order to cause less attention when loading the hostage. Even if he had to walk just 20-30 feet with a hostage, that would have been risky for him compared to 5 feet, etc.

I think he may have initially wanted his car to "blend in" with the other few in the lot, but once his plan fell apart, he abandoned that strategy out of desperation. After all, he initially employed an element of disguise in the beginning stages of his plan (with the delivery scam) -- this would make sense along those lines, especially if he didn't want the store manager to see that he didn't have a proper delivery fan/truck.

 

[flgrl017]

True, but desperation would have forced his hand. I don't think his car was that far from the entrance (compared to where he initially parked), but far enough to make it difficult to drag a duct-taped hostage. Was the SUV of interest "backed-in" to the spot, do we know?

You can tell in the surveillance photos that it’s not backed in.
I honestly don’t see him trying to take any of them with him. What would be the point and it would be hard to get them out either door. You have the Sally’s entrance right besides the front door and the back door is very exposed to two busy roads. Plus there were 6 for him to handle.

 

[flgrl017]

Just to clarify: I don't think he went very far in order to re-park his car. He may have initially parked in that area where the victims' cars where, for example -- but suddenly wanted to pull the car up as close to the building as he possibly could, in order to cause less attention when loading the hostage. Even if he had to walk just 20-30 feet with a hostage, that would have been risky for him compared to 5 feet, etc.

I think he may have initially wanted his car to "blend in" with the other few in the lot, but once his plan fell apart, he abandoned that strategy out of desperation. After all, he initially employed an element of disguise in the beginning stages of his plan (with the delivery scam) -- this would make sense along those lines, especially if he didn't want the store manager to see that he didn't have a proper delivery fan/truck.

My point was if he did move his car during all this, he would have been back inside 5 minutes before the 911 call was placed. If he would have left the store to move it, this would have had to happen around 10:36 or 10:37.
I still think he was dropped off.

 

[Userid]

You can tell in the surveillance photos that it’s not backed in.
I honestly don’t see him trying to take any of them with him. What would be the point and it would be hard to get them out either door. You have the Sally’s entrance right besides the front door and the back door is very exposed to two busy roads. Plus there were 6 for him to handle.

Well, there would be a couple points. First, to take one of them to an ATM, perhaps -- this just happened in the area not too long ago, actually. Another would have been, for sexual gratification (i.e. he had already resorted to fondling a victim by that time).

He wouldn't have taken all of them. Probably just one.

 

[Userid]

My point was if he did move his car during all this, he would have been back inside 5 minutes before the 911 call was placed. If he would have left the store to move it, this would have had to happen around 10:36 or 10:37.
I still think he was dropped off.

Ten-four -- but he would have been inside, at the front of the store, all the same. Whether he was waiting/talking to/calling an accomplice or whether he re-entered after parking his car and lingered there (off-and-on) for five minutes before the call was actually made -- he lingered there all the same.

 

[flgrl017]

I

Well, there would a couple points. First, to take one of them to an ATM, perhaps -- this just happened in the area not too long ago, actually. Another would have been, for sexual gratification (i.e. he had already resorted to fondling a victim by that time).

He wouldn't have taken all of them. Probably just one.

I think that if you’re looking for someone to kidnap and take to the atm and around town shopping like those people did that seems to be a different mo. Those people were both kidnapped very early in the morning. It just seems to me that there would be an easier way to find a victim in both those scenarios than to cause such a scene at Lane Bryant and leave 5 people behind. I just don’t think that if he intended to find a victim to take with him that he would have done all this other stuff first in such a public place on a Saturday. It would have been more like the crimes that just happened... Grab someone off the street and take off. That’s just my thoughts.

 

[flgrl017]

Ten-four -- but he would have been inside, at the front of the store, all the same. Whether he was waiting/talking to/calling an accomplice or whether he re-entered after parking his car and lingered there (off-and-on) for five minutes before the call was actually made -- he lingered there all the same.

I think someone from that suv came into the store and had him distracted. That’s who we hear him talking to. She realized it was a part of a larger operation at that point. There was probably still someone in the car too. That’s how they operate. There is always someone in the drivers seat ready to go.

 

[Kittybunny]

Yeah, I've listened to it dozens of times now. Seems like the majority hear what you hear. Personally, I don't hear "you're lucky" at all -- I've tried to specifically hear it too, but I just can't. I think I can hear what many think is the "foolishness" part, but I hear him saying "bull ****" again -- he's stretching out the syllables...."buuuullll s***"

If he had killed one of the victims before the phone call, wouldn't Martha have been able to provide that info to police? Maybe she did and I just didn't hear about it.

I feel like he had to have caught RF in the act of the making the call, before Martha ever heard the sirens -- that's why she was shot in the forehead. The fact she was the only one shot this way, to me, indicates she was shot before the others; and shot early in the phone call.

Also, the more I listen to it, the more I hear "You!" as opposed to "Yo!" If it is "You," he could be talking to any one of the victims.

I'm at work and can't listen to the call right now, but I am really interested in knowing whether the man had an accent of any kind? I thought I read potentially slightly Jamaican or Caribbean, but I assume that would have been included in many news reports.

In the Delphi murders thread, the "down the hill" phrase has been dissected 10 ways to Sunday. Just wondering if there are any clues in his dialect, manner of speaking, etc., or anything that could provide clues. Educated, non-educated, street, older, younger?

Thanks!

 

[Userid]

I

I think that if you’re looking for someone to kidnap and take to the atm and around town shopping like those people did that seems to be a different mo. Those people were both kidnapped very early in the morning. It just seems to me that there would be an easier way to find a victim in both those scenarios than to cause such a scene at Lane Bryant and leave 5 people behind. I just don’t think that if he intended to find a victim to take with him that he would have done all this other stuff first in such a public place on a Saturday. It would have been more like the crimes that just happened... Grab someone off the street and take off. That’s just my thoughts.

Again, that wouldn't have been his initial intent. More like a Plan B, after his initial plan unraveled.

And, he more than likely would have murdered the other 5; he wouldn't have just left them in any case -- in my view, all of the victims were going to be killed no matter what the killer did, after his initial plan unraveled.

 

[Userid]

I think someone from that suv came into the store and had him distracted. That’s who we hear him talking to. She realized it was a part of a larger operation at that point. There was probably still someone in the car too. That’s how they operate. There is always someone in the drivers seat ready to go.

I feel like if he was talking to someone else in the store, Martha would have reported that. This store wasn't that big, so I think that would have been easily overheard by any of the victims, her included. I'm still of the belief that, if there was an accomplice, he/she never entered the store.

My whole problem with the general accomplice angle though, is this: Martha never reported the killer ever talking to someone on the phone, etc; or an accomplice ever being in the store. In my opinion, if there was an accomplice, there would have had to be some sort of real-time coordination going on. Because the killer had already been in the store for close to 40 minutes -- any accomplice in that situation would have needed to know what the heck was taking the killer so long, because when pulling off a robbery, being in the place for over 5 minutes is a surefire way for everyone involved to get caught, let alone 40.

Which begs the question: how did the accomplice know to pull up to the door at that exact time, without any sort of real-time coordination (which there is no evidence of)?

 

[flgrl017]

I'm at work and can't listen to the call right now, but I am really interested in knowing whether the man had an accent of any kind? I thought I read potentially slightly Jamaican or Caribbean, but I assume that would have been included in many news reports.

In the Delphi murders thread, the "down the hill" phrase has been dissected 10 ways to Sunday. Just wondering if there are any clues in his dialect, manner of speaking, etc., or anything that could provide clues. Educated, non-educated, street, older, younger?

Thanks!

All I hear is African American male to be honest.

 

[Userid]

I'm at work and can't listen to the call right now, but I am really interested in knowing whether the man had an accent of any kind? I thought I read potentially slightly Jamaican or Caribbean, but I assume that would have been included in many news reports.

In the Delphi murders thread, the "down the hill" phrase has been dissected 10 ways to Sunday. Just wondering if there are any clues in his dialect, manner of speaking, etc., or anything that could provide clues. Educated, non-educated, street, older, younger?

Thanks!

I read that too (about the accent sounding Jamaican -- there was also a report that said the accent was southern), but I honestly don't hear any sort of accent at all.

His manner of speaking -- very fragmented (at least, from what we hear on the call), very frantic. To me, he seems to be rambling to himself a lot ("I'm losing it!," etc.). If the call is any indication, the killer became erratic from the moment his initial ruse failed to the end of the crime.

Hard to distinguish education level. Nothing really signifies college-level. He doesn't sound like a young person; more like mid-twenties to early-thirties.

 

[flgrl017]

Again, that wouldn't have been his initial intent. More like a Plan B, after his initial plan unraveled.

And, he more than likely would have murdered the other 5; he wouldn't have just left them in any case -- in my view, all of the victims were going to be killed no matter what the killer did, after his initial plan unraveled.

I go back and forth what would have happened. I could see him killing all of them eventually or I could see him going into a rage and killing her and then panicking but his original intent was just to leave them alive.

 

[flgrl017]

I feel like if he was talking to someone else in the store, Martha would have reported that. This store wasn't that big, so I think that would have been easily overheard by any of the victims, her included. I'm still of the belief that, if there was an accomplice, he/she never entered the store.

My whole problem with the general accomplice angle though, is this: Martha never reported the killer ever talking to someone on the phone, etc; or an accomplice ever being in the store. In my opinion, if there was an accomplice, there would have had to be some sort of real-time coordination going on. Because the killer had already been in the store for close to 40 minutes -- any accomplice in that situation would have needed to know what the heck was taking the killer so long, because when pulling off a robbery, being in the place for over 5 minutes is a surefire way everyone involved to get caught, let alone 40.

Which begs the question: how did the accomplice know to pull up to the door at that exact time, without any sort of real-time coordination (which there is no evidence of)?

We don’t really know what all she told them though.
He pulls up at the 30 minute mark of the perp entering so their plan could have been if I’m not out in 30 minutes someone else come in.

 

[Userid]

Maybe, but 30 minutes is still an eternity for a crime like this. And I would think that, if there was an accomplice, that accomplice would have helped the killer as customers entered the store -- but we know the killer had to round up the customers by himself.

 

[flgrl017]

Maybe, but 30 minutes is still an eternity for a crime like this. And I would think that, if there was an accomplice, that accomplice would have helped the killer as customers entered the store -- but we know the killer had to round up the customers by himself.

I agree, 30 minutes is a long time. It’s amazing that he was able to control at least 4 women at one time. We know 2 customers were already in the store plus the 2 employees when he got there. Not sure if the other ones entered before or after he got the first 4 under control and taped up. I’ve read that he got them to tape each other up but still...

 

[Userid]

I agree, 30 minutes is a long time. It’s amazing that he was able to control at least 4 women at one time. We know 2 customers were already in the store plus the 2 employees when he got there. Not sure if the other ones entered before or after he got the first 4 under control and taped up. I’ve read that he got them to tape each other up but still...

Yes, he was quite efficient in that respect, considering the circumstances. I would like to know exactly how long he kept up the delivery-man bit -- was it 15 minutes? Was it a half-hour? When did he abandon his initial plan?

I thought I read that he had rounded customers up as they entered the store, so I read that as meaning the remaining two customers had entered after he had already had the four tied up; or at least, while that was occurring. Because he more than likely wouldn't have been rounding up customers while he was pretending to be a delivery man.

I was just about to ask: could the "yo" we hear have been directed at the sixth (last) customer who entered the store? Did the last customer enter that late into the store? Seems like the timeline of when the call began to when police arrived would be too tight (to bind this last customer, etc.), but I wonder.

 

[flgrl017]

Yes, he was quite efficient in that respect, considering the circumstances. I would like to know exactly how long he kept up the delivery-man bit -- was it 15 minutes? Was it a half-hour? When did he abandon his initial plan?

I thought I read that he had rounded customers up as they entered the store, so I read that as meaning the remaining two customers had entered after he had already had the four tied up; or at least, while that was occurring. Because he more than likely wouldn't have been rounding up customers while he was pretending to be a delivery man.

I was just about to ask: could the "yo" we hear have been directed at the sixth (last) customer who entered the store? Did the last customer enter that late into the store? Seems like the timeline of when the call began to when police arrived would be too tight (to bind this last customer, etc.), but I wonder.

I think that if one wasn’t bound when she called 911 that would have been too much chaos going on for him to handle. They said that RM was shot in the forehead and the rest in the back of head so that leads me to believe they were all tied up (besides RM) and under control at time of shooting.
No one knows (besides Martha & the cops) how long it took it to announce the robbery. All they’ve said is Martha greeted him and sent him to the register to speak to RM. I imagine they had a conversation and then she called Orland. I would think that soon after that he announced the robbery. I would guess that would take about 5-10 minutes but I have nothing to back that up other than how I imagine things went down.

 

[Userid]

I think that if one wasn’t bound when she called 911 that would have been too much chaos going on for him to handle. They said that RM was shot in the forehead and the rest in the back of head so that leads me to believe they were all tied up (besides RM) and under control at time of shooting.
No one knows (besides Martha & the cops) how long it took it to announce the robbery. All they’ve said is Martha greeted him and sent him to the register to speak to RM. I imagine they had a conversation and then she called Orland. I would think that soon after that he announced the robbery. I would guess that would take about 5-10 minutes but I have nothing to back that up other than how I imagine things went down.

I saw a news report not too long ago that gave the impression that he was in there for approximately 20 minutes before he began the robbery, but who know if that's accurate or not.