I'm lost

[Turnadot]

KoldKase, your posts are like gold and confirm some suspicions I began having while reading the Bonita Papers, and the red alarm was clanging loud during Patsy's Q&A with BPD.

It just sickens me that people can hide behind their money.

Also, I think they had help from a good friend outside the home. Not with the murder, but the cover up. The Ramsey's got a lawyer so fast!

 

[joeskidbeck]

KoldKase, your posts are like gold and confirm some suspicions I began having while reading the Bonita Papers, and the red alarm was clanging loud during Patsy's Q&A with BPD.

It just sickens me that people can hide behind their money.

Also, I think they had help from a good friend outside the home. Not with the murder, but the cover up. The Ramsey's got a lawyer so fast!

BBM
You are exactly right, Turnadot. Did you happen to notice that suspiciously absent that morning were the Stines? These are the friends who supported the Ramseys more than any other throughout the whole thing. That was a huge red flag for me. Why weren't they called that morning? I happen to believe it's because they were there during the night and helped with the staging. Then the R's stayed with the Stines while still in Colorado. Later, the Stines packed up and moved to Atlanta when the Ramseys did.

 

[Turnadot]

The Stines, yes, it had occurred to me they helped the Ramsey's.

I'm still reading information, but, IMO, I can't think of a legit reason for the Ramsey's to lie about the ransom note unless one of them wrote it - my guess is Patsy.

 

[BBB167893]

I think Turnadot will grow into something interesting.

 

[Turnadot]

Done with Patsy's BDP interview, started John's after dinner. When he's talking about finding JonBenet, this jumped out at me:

JR: I don’t remember him being there. But I just, I mean I don’t, I remember later thinking I didn’t hear Fleet scream out or call for help or say anything at all, and that frankly seemed odd, but I might have just been out of my mind, I don’t know. I don’t remember, I don’t remember him, I mean once I went to that door from, and when I took those stairs, I don’t remember where Fleet was.

Well, neither did John, yet he remarked that he found it odd that Fleet didn't yell for help? And Fleet not saying anything at all can easily be attributed to shock, IMO. It seems to me John was really reaching here to cast suspicion on Fleet.

My opinions...

 

[KoldKase]

Done with Patsy's BDP interview, started John's after dinner. When he's talking about finding JonBenet, this jumped out at me:

JR: I don’t remember him being there. But I just, I mean I don’t, I remember later thinking I didn’t hear Fleet scream out or call for help or say anything at all, and that frankly seemed odd, but I might have just been out of my mind, I don’t know. I don’t remember, I don’t remember him, I mean once I went to that door from, and when I took those stairs, I don’t remember where Fleet was.

Well, neither did John, yet he remarked that he found it odd that Fleet didn't yell for help? And Fleet not saying anything at all can easily be attributed to shock, IMO. It seems to me John was really reaching here to cast suspicion on Fleet.

My opinions...

Agreed. And as a matter of fact, Fleet White ran upstairs after touching JB's cold leg, to the telephone to call for help, but in shock hung up and YELLED for the others to call for help, going back downstairs or somewhere in a panic himself. I can only imagine the shock of finding a child you have known and cared for dead like that in a basement after spending a morning awaiting a call from terrorists supposed to have kidnapped her.

 

[DeeDee249]

FW did pick up a phone, allegedly to call 911. That much we know, and Det. Arndt wouldn't make that up. What has always puzzled me- and I know this is looking at it as a third party- WHO did he call and WHY did he hang up before completing the call? Why tell someone else to do something you are seconds away from completing yourself?
I'd have pressed "redial" to see who had been called. I am not intending to cast suspicion on FW, because I think the W's had NOTHING to do with this, but to hand up in the middle of a call that is THREE digits (911) is puzzling.

 

[joeskidbeck]

FW did pick up a phone, allegedly to call 911. That much we know, and Det. Arndt wouldn't make that up. What has always puzzled me- and I know this is looking at it as a third party- WHO did he call and WHY did he hang up before completing the call? Why tell someone else to do something you are seconds away from completing yourself?
I'd have pressed "redial" to see who had been called. I am not intending to cast suspicion on FW, because I think the W's had NOTHING to do with this, but to hand up in the middle of a call that is THREE digits (911) is puzzling.

DeeDee, based on FW requesting that Arndt be the one to ask JR to do that final search, I believe he already suspected that the R's knew a lot more about what happened to JonBenet than they were telling. Maybe it occurred to him that it would be better if someone else call 911 as well. I wonder if he knew what the 911 call from the 23rd was about? Remember, that one got blamed on him. Like you I don't believe the Whites had anything to do with her death but it sure would be nice if they would tell the things they know. They probably realize that it doesn't matter what they know, the Ramsey's will never be brought to trial.

 

[Turnadot]

FW did pick up a phone, allegedly to call 911. That much we know, and Det. Arndt wouldn't make that up. What has always puzzled me- and I know this is looking at it as a third party- WHO did he call and WHY did he hang up before completing the call? Why tell someone else to do something you are seconds away from completing yourself?
I'd have pressed "redial" to see who had been called. I am not intending to cast suspicion on FW, because I think the W's had NOTHING to do with this, but to hand up in the middle of a call that is THREE digits (911) is puzzling.

I don't know, but people do strange things when gripped with shock and panic. Perhaps in a panic, he intended to dial 911, but realised there was already a detective there, so he yelled "Help" instead, and someone else decided to dial 911 anyway. Or Fleet wanted to do it himself, but the right words wouldn't come out so he blurted for someone else to dial it.

Based on my own experience with shock and panic, I literally felt deranged and could barely remember my own name.

I think KoldKase has it right; Fleet was in a panic.

 

[Turnadot]

So I've read, read, read and read until my eyes are bleeding, figuratively speaking, but I can't figure out why the Ramsey's were cleared.

Yes, I know what touch DNA is and where it was located on JonBenet, but could the DNA belong to whomever helped the Ramsey's with the staging?

My personal opinion is that Patsy wrote the ransom note and both she and John were in on the staging of the crime scene, and they had help.

 

[BBB167893]

So I've read, read, read and read until my eyes are bleeding, figuratively speaking, but I can't figure out why the Ramsey's were cleared.

Yes, I know what touch DNA is and where it was located on JonBenet, but could the DNA belong to whomever helped the Ramsey's with the staging?

My personal opinion is that Patsy wrote the ransom note and both she and John were in on the staging of the crime scene, and they had help.

Hi, Turnadot. That's my brother's theory, as much as I can get him to talk about it.

 

[LadyBug99]

I'm a newbie as well. I had read parts of perfect murder perfect town, I've just read through some of the suggested sites and the Bonita papers. It is so blatant that someone in the R household committed this murder, but WHO? This is the part that I'm having trouble with. I don't think that BR did it, however he had to have known something. I can't wrap my mind around him acting so strange during his original interviews. One thing that comes to mind is that BR knew and perhaps even knew about the previous sexual assaults on JB. But has been silenced by fear??? It has been mentioned that JB often liked to sleep in BR's room. Maybe JB felt safe in his room? IDK!

I also wonder if JB ever went to bed that night. She had the pineapple in her stomach that would have been eaten 2 hrs before death and the fact that the family stated on the tombstone that she died on the 25th was telling for me. That leaves lots of time for all the staging. But who? why? how? Was she hit with the flashlight? Where in the house did this take place? I don't believe it was in the basement. Did Patsy strike out in anger? Did John sexually assault his daughter and hit her to quiet her?

So many questions....back to reading!

 

[KoldKase]

So I've read, read, read and read until my eyes are bleeding, figuratively speaking, but I can't figure out why the Ramsey's were cleared.

Yes, I know what touch DNA is and where it was located on JonBenet, but could the DNA belong to whomever helped the Ramsey's with the staging?

My personal opinion is that Patsy wrote the ransom note and both she and John were in on the staging of the crime scene, and they had help.

You are very astute, Turnadot.

IMO, the DNA was simply contamination, probably from some source at the autopsy, where the clothes were pulled off the child and Dr. Meyer even carefully checked the crotch of the panties against the body to align the blood drops, or at the forensic lab, where the underwear and longjohns would have been handled, as well, to examine for and to collect samples, in exactly the places from which the "touch" DNA was eventually extracted. The fingernail DNA was far too degraded to be included in any "match," despite what Team Ramsey constantly misstates about it: one to three markers does not a match of ANY KIND make. But the fingernails were also cut at the medical examiners office, possibly with contaminated instruments, as Thomas stated, to that could be the source of all the contamination. DNA is inconceivably minute, after all.

About how the Ramseys got away with this: If you're willing to have your eyes bleed a little more, at FFJ I recently wrote two rather long posts--not the Bonita Papers, but I'm notorious for my long posts because I kind of think while writing--which come to rather the same conclusion.

The thread is actually titled "Bonita Papers." You might want to read the comments from the start, but specifically my two posts related to your statement are down this page a bit--#191, and then on the next page down a bit--#199: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10001&page=16

I don't think it would be appreciated if I copied them here, though. My THEORY--I don't believe we'll ever know the truth about it--is that Lockheed Martin is the key to this mystery. In the first post I address the "bussiness" mentioned in the ransom note; in the second post, the strange responses of LE that morning.

Might help, might not: but theories are all we have.

 

[Turnadot]

Thank you so much, KoldKase. Yes; I'm willing to bleed my eyes more, lol. This is a case where once I started it, it's impossible to just stop. I want to read everything I can get my eyes on.

 

[KoldKase]

I'm a newbie as well. I had read parts of perfect murder perfect town, I've just read through some of the suggested sites and the Bonita papers. It is so blatant that someone in the R household committed this murder, but WHO? This is the part that I'm having trouble with. I don't think that BR did it, however he had to have known something. I can't wrap my mind around him acting so strange during his original interviews. One thing that comes to mind is that BR knew and perhaps even knew about the previous sexual assaults on JB. But has been silenced by fear??? It has been mentioned that JB often liked to sleep in BR's room. Maybe JB felt safe in his room? IDK!

I also wonder if JB ever went to bed that night. She had the pineapple in her stomach that would have been eaten 2 hrs before death and the fact that the family stated on the tombstone that she died on the 25th was telling for me. That leaves lots of time for all the staging. But who? why? how? Was she hit with the flashlight? Where in the house did this take place? I don't believe it was in the basement. Did Patsy strike out in anger? Did John sexually assault his daughter and hit her to quiet her?

So many questions....back to reading!

I think SuperDave would do better at answering your questions than I, but I will say that there was blood on the pillowcase on JB's bed, and it was hers, we learned in the '98 DA interview with Patsy. Patsy was asked if JB had nosebleeds, and she said no, though of course she equivocated saying she picked her nose and it might bleed...ha!

All things considered, this blood on the pillowcase tells me that JonBenet was probably bludgeoned in or near her room that night; if she was in the bed or near the bed and laid upon it after the blow, that would explain the blood on the pillowcase. Otherwise, I don't think she'd have been carried all the way back to her room from another bedroom or another floor of the home, but of course, I'm just speculating based on common sense.

While I can't rule Burke out for delivering the head blow in a childish sibling fight or prior molestation of his sister, I can't imagine him being big enough to carry JonBenet down two flights of stairs to the basement. That's where she was possibly penetrated with the paintbrush to cover up the prior molestation which happened before that night, IMO. She was cleaned up and redressed, I believe the evidence proves.

This would have been when the oversized Bloomies were placed on her body, with the killer not knowing her bladder would release urine when she died, soiling the panties and longjohns. I don't believe he/she/they had the heart to change the clothes again, if he/she/they even noticed once the deed was done.

Then she was turned over onto her stomach and the ligature was tied onto her neck at the back--the hair still attached to her scalp at the back of her neck was caught in the knot, along with fibers from Patsy's clothing. Slivers from the paintbrush found by the tray indicate it was broken there and then tied onto the ligature as a handle. The handle was pulled from behind as she was strangled beside the paint tray. Lou Smit stated her urine was found on the carpet there, so if true, that's where she expired and then her bladder evacuated onto the front of her clothing. She was finally staged onto a blanket, wrapped around her in the cellar room.

I don't believe Burke had the ability, patience, or conscience to do all that at his age. As I said, I don't believe he could have carried her limp body down two flights of stairs, as well, and as little as I think of the Ramseys, I don't believe they'd have taken him down to the basement to witness the devil's tasks of that night.

Just my theory and opinion. Obviously, I've gotten some things wrong, as I wasn't there, but this is the best I can surmise from what we know of the evidence.

 

[Turnadot]

I couldn't quite figure Lou Smit out. He seemed to lack the ability to make logical leaps in this case, which should not be because he was, apparently, highly regarded as a detective and closed a lot of cases.

Reading the Lockheed Martin stuff now. Just. Wow.

 

[madeleine]

All things considered, this blood on the pillowcase tells me that JonBenet was probably bludgeoned in or near her room that night; if she was in the bed or near the bed and laid upon it after the blow, that would explain the blood on the pillowcase.

yes and add to this blood on her nightgown.
her blood on the pillow and on her nightgown.tells me a totally different story than the R's want me to believe.

BTW guys,question...
does anyone know where on the nightgown they found blood?upper part,lower part?important in establishing where she could have bled from,right?

 

[KoldKase]

Thank you so much, KoldKase. Yes; I'm willing to bleed my eyes more, lol. This is a case where once I started it, it's impossible to just stop. I want to read everything I can get my eyes on.

You'll curse us here one day, maybe 10 or 14 years into the future, when you're sitting in front of your computer, patches of hair pulled from your head, muttering to yourself, "Dam* corrupt, soulless, wicked people blahblahblah...."
ullhair:

 

[madeleine]

You'll curse us here one day, maybe 10 or 14 years into the future, when you're sitting in front of your computer, patches of hair pulled from your head, muttering to yourself, "Dam* corrupt, soulless, wicked people blahblahblah...."
ullhair:

:floorlaugh: yep join the club

you'll go from :waitasec: to :banghead:
but at least to us this isn't a cold case and never will be
sometimes I feel like I just can't die until knowing what really happened!and I am not that old yet LOL

 

[LadyBug99]

You are very astute, Turnadot.

IMO, the DNA was simply contamination, probably from some source at the autopsy, where the clothes were pulled off the child and Dr. Meyer even carefully checked the crotch of the panties against the body to align the blood drops, or at the forensic lab, where the underwear and longjohns would have been handled, as well, to examine for and to collect samples, in exactly the places from which the "touch" DNA was eventually extracted. The fingernail DNA was far too degraded to be included in any "match," despite what Team Ramsey constantly misstates about it: one to three markers does not a match of ANY KIND make. But the fingernails were also cut at the medical examiners office, possibly with contaminated instruments, as Thomas stated, to that could be the source of all the contamination. DNA is inconceivably minute, after all.

About how the Ramseys got away with this: If you're willing to have your eyes bleed a little more, at FFJ I recently wrote two rather long posts--not the Bonita Papers, but I'm notorious for my long posts because I kind of think while writing--which come to rather the same conclusion.

The thread is actually titled "Bonita Papers." You might want to read the comments from the start, but specifically my two posts related to your statement are down this page a bit--#191, and then on the next page down a bit--#199: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10001&page=16

I don't think it would be appreciated if I copied them here, though. My THEORY--I don't believe we'll ever know the truth about it--is that Lockheed Martin is the key to this mystery. In the first post I address the "bussiness" mentioned in the ransom note; in the second post, the strange responses of LE that morning.

Might help, might not: but theories are all we have.

Very interesting!!! I didn't even dawn on me that LM would have some sort of protocol in place. Hmmmm....Great posts Btw!