Importance of hiring a lawyer

[Aedrys]

That's not the way the justice system has become. The justice system has undergone relatively little change in 220 years or so. It's the way society has become as a result of expansive media coverage and the internet. In general, however, I don't think anyone is presumed guilty simply because he hires an attorney. Where it might seem that way, there are usually questionable circumstances attached.

Nevertheless, we're free to presume whatever the heck we want. The only opinions that matter are those of the jurors, and juries rarely consider the point in time a defendant hired her attorney, if they're even privy to that information.

Excellent post. ITA. And I wanted to add, I can't count how many tv shows and movies I've watched where the guilty person has a just as despicable or crazy or both defense lawyer protecting them from the law, or getting them off on a technicality. It seems to be the popular thing to watch these days, based on the general beliefs of the public about defense lawyers. You never see a show where the defense lawyer is good, ethical, cares about what they're doing, or is really trying to save lives (or at least there's very little of that these days).

Heck, I got some education myself when I made a general statement earlier in this case that offended a former defense lawyer who reads here. The fact is, defense lawyers are consider by the majority of people to be lower than dirt. Ironically, it's only the most corrupt ones that keep making media rounds, and that's what people base their belief about defense lawyers on.

I was thoroughly schooled. The vast majority of defense lawyers are hard working, ethical people that help the public deal with the legal system. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't realize that and automatically think if someone gets a lawyer, they're guilty.

It doesn't help if that person is doing weird/suspicious things and also gets a lawyer (when it comes to image, you have to help yourself and not keep doing things that point right at you, you know what I mean? Apparently Terri finally learned what that meant.)

Basically, it's a prevailing societal attitude that just seems to be getting worse and worse as more high profile cases and unscrupulous lawyers keep making the news. I actually admire those that work hard at being defense lawyers (the good ones) because that has to be one of the hardest, most thankless jobs out there today.

And as for me, I would cooperate as much as I could. I also have a dad who is a lawyer (and a doctor), and I would probably consult him first anyway. As for hiring one, I am very poor, so they'd have to be pro bono or something like that, unfortunately. I just hope I never get into a situation where I have to hire one.

 

[cluciano63]

After reading about what is happening in North Carolina under Current Events yesterday...where it looks like a bunch of convictions may have to be overturned due to shady dealings on the LE side of things...I guess I would want a lawyer to guide me through every aspect of being a suspect in a crime. Texas and Okalahoma, among other states, have had issues in recent years with falsified evidence from crime labs, etc. Scary stuff, but it does happen. I think in most of these cases, the prosecutors are so certain that the person is guilty and just determined to get them behind bars and lose sight of the fact that they have to do it fairly. And the people likely are guilty. But still...way scary to me.

 

[grayjay]

I'd hate to spend the money, but it would depend mostly on the type of questions asked and any indications my words were being misconstrued or twisted in some way, or just not being carefully considered. The tone of questioning would definitely decide it for me, and I realize this might be foolish.

 

[Morag]

I was young and foolish, and innocent. I thought that if I told the truth to the FBI that my innocence and my good reputation would straighten the whole thing out immediately. It didn't. I couldn't afford a lawyer, so I had to deal with the whole thing on my own. They wanted me to take a polygraph. I had heard from another co-worker how cruel and unfair the polygrapher was. I declined to take a poly. My job and my freedom hung by a thread, because if I was arrested, I would have been fired, and I couldn't have made bail. At last, another employee confessed to the theft, and I was left alone thereafter. No apology, though.

By the way, not only did they investigate me, they visited my widowed mother in a state thousands of miles away, and not only that, they pretended that they couldn't find the address, and went to the houses on either side and across the street from my mom-all houses plainly numbered, and my mom had lived there 20 years. So everyone in her neighborhood knew that the FBI had come calling.

And as for my boyfriend (at that time), a long-haired hippie,
they went to his place of business, a very conservative firm, and questioned him and some of his co-workers. They tapped my phone, they monitored my mail.

So all of us/you virtuous and innocent people, say hurrah for the 5th amendment and for Miranda, and for the right to an attorney. It is possible to be as pure as the driven snow and still to be falsely accused, and to be badly hurt by LE.

 

[PDXMom]

I was young and foolish, and innocent. I thought that if I told the truth to the FBI that my innocence and my good reputation would straighten the whole thing out immediately. It didn't. I couldn't afford a lawyer, so I had to deal with the whole thing on my own. They wanted me to take a polygraph. I had heard from another co-worker how cruel and unfair the polygrapher was. I declined to take a poly. My job and my freedom hung by a thread, because if I was arrested, I would have been fired, and I couldn't have made bail. At last, another employee confessed to the theft, and I was left alone thereafter. No apology, though.

By the way, not only did they investigate me, they visited my widowed mother in a state thousands of miles away, and not only that, they pretended that they couldn't find the address, and went to the houses on either side and across the street from my mom-all houses plainly numbered, and my mom had lived there 20 years. So everyone in her neighborhood knew that the FBI had come calling.

And as for my boyfriend (at that time), a long-haired hippie,
they went to his place of business, a very conservative firm, and questioned him and some of his co-workers. They tapped my phone, they monitored my mail.

So all of us/you virtuous and innocent people, say hurrah for the 5th amendment and for Miranda, and for the right to an attorney. It is possible to be as pure as the driven snow and still to be falsely accused, and to be badly hurt by LE.

Wow, Morag, that must have been terrible! That would be one of my worst nightmares. Apparently many others' too, judging by the success of the film, The Fugitive.

 

[Morag]

Wow, Morag, that must have been terrible! That would be one of my worst nightmares. Apparently many others' too, judging by the success of the film, The Fugitive.

Took me several years and several bouts of therapy to recover from that (and no health insurance coverage for therapy). And my mother NEVER got over it, continued to talk about it even when she became quite demented.

My point is, don't be casual about the rights of others, 'cause they are your rights, too!

 

[AbbieNormal]

I like to think they are taking the Marc Klass view- I will totally cooperate, just do what you need to do to rule me out, then let's work together to find him/her.

If you have nothing to hide, then LE should be able to rule you out pretty quickly. Now if they start acting weird or signal that they are trying to build a case around you, then you should stop talking and lawyer up pdq.

Same here. If you are innocent (which I would be) then you have nothing to hide. Plus, I could not afford a lawyer. I can barely afford the doctors!! Tell what you know,if anything, get ruled out, ad go on your way. No lawyer needed. Does DY have one?

 

[AbbieNormal]

For me, it would depend on the circumstances. If I witnessed an accident, then of course I would speak to LE without a lawyer present. If I witnessed a crime, I would speak to LE without a lawyer present. If my child was missing, I would speak without a lawyer present, unless LE began focusing on me as their suspect, and then I would hire a lawyer -- not only to protect myself and my family, but in some ways, to keep LE's focus in check. If I knew I was innocent, but that LE was focused on me, I'd do everything in my power to refocus their attention. IMHO, pleading with LE to focus on strangers or Bobby's father or whomever only gives rise to, "She doth protest too much." So, yes, I would hire a lawyer. I would not speak to LE without a lawyer if my statements were not those of a witness. In essence, if a crime occurred and LE were investigating as if everyone was a suspect, I would consult an attorney.

IMHO, LE are basically good, well-intentioned people, but even well-intentioned people get it wrong, and although the exception not the rule, there are innocent people in prison and innocent people's lives have been destroyed because they weren't adept when dealing with LE and the legalities in this country. Also, LE does, sadly, sometimes get tunnel vision. This is not to say it's malicious, or purposeful targeting of a specific person (although it can be), but sometimes in the zeal to solve a case LE gets it wrong. Hiring a lawyer is a personal choice, a right, and should not, IMHO, be an indication of guilt.

Great post!

 

[debs]

That's not the way the justice system has become. The justice system has undergone relatively little change in 220 years or so. It's the way society has become as a result of expansive media coverage and the internet. In general, however, I don't think anyone is presumed guilty simply because he hires an attorney. Where it might seem that way, there are usually questionable circumstances attached.

Nevertheless, we're free to presume whatever the heck we want. The only opinions that matter are those of the jurors, and juries rarely consider the point in time a defendant hired her attorney, if they're even privy to that information.

When LE and DA's are giving interviews and making statements about someone they are accusing of committing a crime and use the term "(S)he lawyered up" they are twisting things to make that fact appear to be an essence of guilt. I agree it is also what society does, but I believe they're taking their cues from those in the justice system who begin by making such statements as though they were condemnations rather than the right of the individual to counsel. The presumption of innocence IS only on paper anymore. That paper is the Constitution.

 

[Billylee]

I recommend reading "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham. It's a good read and unlike most of his work, it's based on a true story and it does show how LE can indeed have "tunnel vision".

 

[cluciano63]

I hate that phrase "lawyered up" no matter who uses it. It is completely derogatory and enciting, meant to be an indication of guilt and is equivalent to an eye-roll, to me, from the person who uses it. We hear it from NG all the time, and from LE in many cases.

 

[eyes4crime]

Anything past "I want to speak to my attorney." will never help you. It is the way the justice system has become, that the presumption of guilt is assumed when one applies the rights that were granted by the Constitution. It is up to the State to prove you are guilty; there is nothing which says you must help them do so.

BBM

Great point Debs - another hallmark of guilt nowadays is failing the poly. The state sure has that one on its side! Guess the Constitution didn't see a machine for deception coming. A machine built to measure our autonomic nervous system (heart rate, blood pressure, sweat, respiration) and touted to measure something called deception? like, what does that word 'deception' mean again?

A failed poly could be the result of that dang, annoying, 'hot flash' that can't be controlled.

Headaches over your missing child, couldn't sleep much due to anguish? Just take a couple Excedrin, a NoDoz, or gulp a few coffee's - that might register as a deception/failure.

Too upset to eat? I'm sure the poly will catch that hypoglycemic reaction just in time for a deception/failure.

Oh, and don't get nervous, that state of mind could translate into increased blood pressure or palpitations. After all, nothing to be nervous about, it's just your child missing.

Mental health issue? Don't worry, the poly will register the effects of sleepers, anti-anxiety meds, anti-depressants, and everything you take to stay with it - what the poly doesn't register is why you are taking such meds.

Or maybe the failed poly isn't really a failed poly, it's just what LE want you to think! More mind games anyone?

Or maybe you just didn't hit it off with the polygrapher, who may or may not have a course or two in psychology or physiology under his belt. And for sure, not a single course in pharmacology. I know because I checked. Are you even in a state that requires certification? Better check cause only 20+ states do.

How did a machine become so significant as to cast shadows of guilt or innocence on a person and dictate their future reputation and livelyhood. Wonder how our Constitution missed that one.
all just my opinions and all that stuff.

 

[Morag]

[/B]
BBM

Great point Debs - another hallmark of guilt nowadays is failing the poly. The state sure has that one on its side! Guess the Constitution didn't see a machine for deception coming. A machine built to measure our autonomic nervous system (heart rate, blood pressure, sweat, respiration) and touted to measure something called deception? like, what does that word 'deception' mean again?

A failed poly could be the result of that dang, annoying, 'hot flash' that can't be controlled.

Headaches over your missing child, couldn't sleep much due to anguish? Just take a couple Excedrin, a NoDoz, or gulp a few coffee's - that might register as a deception/failure.

Too upset to eat? I'm sure the poly will catch that hypoglycemic reaction just in time for a deception/failure.

Oh, and don't get nervous, that state of mind could translate into increased blood pressure or palpitations. After all, nothing to be nervous about, it's just your child missing.

Mental health issue? Don't worry, the poly will register the effects of sleepers, anti-anxiety meds, anti-depressants, and everything you take to stay with it - what the poly doesn't register is why you are taking such meds.

Or maybe the failed poly isn't really a failed poly, it's just what LE want you to think! More mind games anyone?

Or maybe you just didn't hit it off with the polygrapher, who may or may not have a course or two in psychology or physiology under his belt. And for sure, not a single course in pharmacology. I know because I checked. Are you even in a state that requires certification? Better check cause only 20+ states do.

How did a machine become so significant as to cast shadows of guilt or innocence on a person and dictate their future reputation and livelyhood. Wonder how our Constitution missed that one.
all just my opinions and all that stuff.

Ooh, I just today heard a polygraph story about a local business which was robbed/burglarized of $20,000. The money was left over the weekend in a not very sophisticated safe which was concealed in a cabinet (oh, yeah, good hiding place)- and it was small enough to be carried out of there. Of course, it sounded like an inside job. There were about 4 family members and about a dozen long-time employees. Well, everyone took the poly- except for one of the employees. Of course, "everyone" from the business and plenty of people from the community assume that that person is guilty. So the polygraph is used as a weapon- if you don't take it you're as good as guilty.

 

[tragco]

I was young and foolish, and innocent. I thought that if I told the truth to the FBI that my innocence and my good reputation would straighten the whole thing out immediately. It didn't. I couldn't afford a lawyer, so I had to deal with the whole thing on my own. They wanted me to take a polygraph. I had heard from another co-worker how cruel and unfair the polygrapher was. I declined to take a poly. My job and my freedom hung by a thread, because if I was arrested, I would have been fired, and I couldn't have made bail. At last, another employee confessed to the theft, and I was left alone thereafter. No apology, though.

By the way, not only did they investigate me, they visited my widowed mother in a state thousands of miles away, and not only that, they pretended that they couldn't find the address, and went to the houses on either side and across the street from my mom-all houses plainly numbered, and my mom had lived there 20 years. So everyone in her neighborhood knew that the FBI had come calling.

And as for my boyfriend (at that time), a long-haired hippie,
they went to his place of business, a very conservative firm, and questioned him and some of his co-workers. They tapped my phone, they monitored my mail.

So all of us/you virtuous and innocent people, say hurrah for the 5th amendment and for Miranda, and for the right to an attorney. It is possible to be as pure as the driven snow and still to be falsely accused, and to be badly hurt by LE.

Hurrah for the 5th amendment! While I am FAR from rich, there have been two occasions that I hired a lawyer. First was my divorce- it was actually very amicable, my ex and I remain on good terms. I was given advice to hire a lawyer. It was expensive but I have been compensated fourfold monetary wise. My ex did not hire one, but came in and spoke with him.

Second, I was accused of something I was innocent of. Nothing federal. I started getting a strange feeling.. the guy got so close to me walking on the way it was invasive, like a flirt.. suddenly it hit me...I bet this guy is looking at my eyes and smelling to see if I show any signs of drug use.

Also he looked very disheveled, hadn't shaved, just icky; to the point I could not believe he was in his position.. hit me again like a lightning bolt.. this guy thinks I actually respond FAVORABLY to that kind of person...I refused to talk and got a lawyer. Thank the heavens I did. I want to finish school, get my degree, and work in security. If I had even a misdemeanor on my record it would have destroyed all my dreams in a SNAP. I do not have a misdemeanor, and I can thank a lawyer for that. Again, very expensive but worth every cent and then some.

Afterthought: When we met to speak in MY lawyer's office he was like a different person. Stayed away from me, very professional, and VERY clean-cut.

 

[tragco]

And while I'm at it, hurrah for the defense lawyers out there!!! Also hurrah for the prosecutors!!!

 

[wondering1]

And while I'm at it, hurrah for the defense lawyers out there!!! Also hurrah for the prosecutors!!!

meh...every defendant I've ever represented did SOMETHING unacceptable. To stand there and plead them out to diversion, for example, makes me ill. imo, all you have to do is look at all the sx offenders out there to know that there's something seriously wrong with our system, and it doesn't have to do with wrongfully accusing the innocent. jmoo

 

[Morag]

meh...every defendant I've ever represented did SOMETHING unacceptable. To stand there and plead them out to diversion, for example, makes me ill. imo, all you have to do is look at all the sx offenders out there to know that there's something seriously wrong with our system, and it doesn't have to do with wrongfully accusing the innocent. jmoo

Well, it does if one is innocent and wrongfully accused.

 

[Billylee]

Great post Moraq

Accusations are just that....accusations. Our United States Justice System is still one of the best (if not the best) in the entire world. It is whether one is wrongly CONVICTED that matters. And all the legaleeze and red tape, that one has to go through to even get a prosecution in this country, if that saves one innocent man/woman from being wrongfully convicted then it is all well worth it.

The fault in our system, I firmly believe, is what happens AFTER a person is convicted, early releases, time off for good behavior (like they could molest a child while in prison?), the lack of follow up on all parties once someone is released. Failure to provide victim compensation. Failure to even try to really get to the cause of the crime in the first place. To me, this is where we are failing miserably, or maybe I should say failing famously. JMHO