Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #156

[photographer4]

In my profession I work with photo editing software every day, all day long. Even if I tweak here and there, remove the hat, add a goatee, etc., I cannot make RA's facial features line up with the younger sketch. And I've tried, believe me, hoping to see what others see. Part of it I believe is that the sketch is of a man no older than late 20's where RA (at the time of the murders) was mid 40's. Time and gravity are no one's friend, and they both show in these side by sides. I also realize that another professional editor might be able to tweak it to fit, but, I'm unable to do that.

jmo

Even law-enforcement themselves who said schedule is not a photograph, nor is it meant to be one.

 

[JosieMae]

I'm skeptical of any anonymous "source" who is telling us that RA self-reported his presence on the bridge that day. This is nothing more than rumor, completely unsubstantiated.

I will wait for the Arrest Affidavit before speculating about how LE (mis)handled the investigation.

 

[zencompass]

This is a Robert Ives interview from about 2 years ago.

At about 12:30 into it, Ives talks about evidence and trials. While something might be deemed important to the prosecutor and LE, the jurors might focus on something else they didn't expect.

Dear @JnRyan,

Thank you so much for this informative Video. Your posts are greatly appreciated, as always!

As you mention above, it is so interesting to hear former Prosecutor Robert Ives speaking about the evidence as well as trials.

Something else that caught my attention is Mr. Ives speaking about not enough persons to answer all the phones ringing in the "early days".

The details which former Prosecutor Robert Ives gives concerning the phone calls coming in and not enough people to answer them, makes me wonder if this was possibly how the "tip" from the Conservation Officer didn't make it to an L.E. officer working the case.

Was there a Voice Mail box and the message wasn't relayed to L.E.? Deleted by mistake? Who knows?

This is just a concern I have after what Mr. Ives said and only a possibility.

Just my thoughts and opinions. I do, however, find it interesting and concerning that there were phones that went unanswered during "the early days" as stated by Robert Ives.

At 38:25 Video Time
Robert Ives says:

"People were really trying and there was a lot of great information that came in. I mean, I took some of those calls myself.

They were so busy early on, I actually manned the phones one day.

Eventually they moved it to the F.B.I. Call Centre. But at one point we were just running a Call Centre ourselves.

And we had lots of volunteers. They tended to be jailers or dispatchers and people who were used to taking these sort of phone calls.

And early in the morning, or at some particular hour, we'd only have one person and there'd be three phones ringing. So I'd just answer the phone." Quote by R. Ives


JMO

 

[Gemmie]

I’m worried about this too. Actually I’m worried that the CO may also have been a personal acquaintance or friend of RA’s. Which may have entirely skewed the context of the report.

jmo

I think it's highly likely he knew him or at least was friendly with him (not necessarily friends). The population in Delphi in 2017 was 2885 according to the US Census Bureau. That's not many people and I think it may have been the only pharmacy in town although I could be wrong. That's pretty close-knit to me.

 

[mrtnira]

I'm skeptical of any anonymous "source" who is telling us that RA self-reported his presence on the bridge that day. This is nothing more than rumor, completely unsubstantiated.

I will wait for the Arrest Affidavit before speculating about how LE (mis)handled the investigation.

I appreciate your disciplined approach. It comes up in several of your posts over time. The reminder to wait on the unsealing of the Arrest Affidavit is a good one.

 

[Hatch]

From the video it appears he was looking down and she may have tried to hide the fact she was recording him - I think if he knew he was being recorded he would have left

Maybe so, IMO if he was savvy enough to use the AS account ( if it becomes clear that he actually did) he had to have known how savvy Libby was. So many questions we hope to know the answer to in the future.
Edited to correct a speculation without a link.

 

[Boxer]

Dear @JnRyan,

Thank you so much for this informative Video. Your posts are greatly appreciated, as always!

As you mention above, it is so interesting to hear former Prosecutor Robert Ives speaking about the evidence as well as trials.

Something else that caught my attention is Mr. Ives speaking about not enough persons to answer all the phones ringing in the "early days".

The details which former Prosecutor Robert Ives gives concerning the phone calls coming in and not enough people to answer them, makes me wonder if this was possibly how the "tip" from the Conservation Officer didn't make it to an L.E. officer working the case.

Was there a Voice Mail box and the message wasn't relayed to L.E.? Deleted by mistake? Who knows?

This is just a concern I have after what Mr. Ives said and only a possibility.

Just my thoughts and opinions. I do, however, find it interesting and concerning that there were phones that went unanswered during "the early days" as stated by Robert Ives.

At 38:25 Video Time
Robert Ives says:

"People were really trying and there was a lot of great information that came in. I mean, I took some of those calls myself.

They were so busy early on, I actually manned the phones one day.

Eventually they moved it to the F.B.I. Call Centre. But at one point we were just running a Call Centre ourselves.

And we had lots of volunteers. They tended to be jailers or dispatchers and people who were used to taking these sort of phone calls.

And early in the morning, or at some particular hour, we'd only have one person and there'd be three phones ringing. So I'd just answer the phone." Quote by R. Ives


JMO

MOO All that stress on tips, national billboards and all the
while they had a random man on the trail.

 

[Sunny Day]

From the video it appears he was looking down and she may have tried to hide the fact she was recording him - I think if he knew he was being recorded he would have left

I've always been surprised by the fact that he left her phone behind. Hard to imagine that he didn't go through their stuff, especially since LE commented that they think the crime scene was staged and that he took a souvenir, but he obviously missed the phone. Just my opinion but I think the recording on that phone will convict him.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I don't recall any statement from LE definitely saying the suspects eyes are "not blue". I actually can not imagine LE officially saying that--it sounds very odd. Do you have a link to that statement? thanks!

A composite sketch was released by the ISP on July 17, 2017 of a man considered the main suspect. It was drawn in part from descriptions provided by someone who saw the suspect. Tobe Leazenby said the witness saw the man walking near Delphi and met with an FBI sketch artist to provide facial details for the rendering of the sketch. He said the witness saw the man around the time the girls were killed.

Kim Riley said at a news conference that the witness who saw the suspect was close enough to him to say that he did not have blue eyes, but was uncertain of his eye colour.

Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths

Blue eyes will look blue but hazel eyes and brown eyes can have varying shades of melanin and can easily be mistaken for one another. Here are some stock images. The first 2 are hazel eyes and the last 2 are brown.

 

[Boxer]

A composite sketch was released by the ISP on July 17, 2017 of a man considered the main suspect. It was drawn in part from descriptions provided by someone who saw the suspect. Tobe Leazenby said the witness saw the man walking near Delphi and met with an FBI sketch artist to provide facial details for the rendering of the sketch. He said the witness saw the man around the time the girls were killed.

Kim Riley said at a news conference that the witness who saw the suspect was close enough to him to say that he did not have blue eyes, but was uncertain of his eye colour.

Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths

Blue eyes will look blue but hazel eyes and brown eyes can have varying shades of melanin and can easily be mistaken for one another. Here are some stock images. The first 2 are hazel eyes and the last 2 are brown.

View attachment 380083View attachment 380084View attachment 380086View attachment 380087

MOO
If he had alcohol his pupils al would be dilated making seeing their color at any distance difficult.

 

[JudgeJudi]

MOO
If he had alcohol his pupils al would be dilated making seeing their color at any distance difficult.

IMO the witness must have been close to BG to make a comment on the colour of his eyes. My husband and I just went outside and I could plainly see that he had blue eyes from a distance of about 5'. I definitely wouldn't have been able to say what colour they were if they were either hazel or brown.

 

[Charlot123]

Is it possible that they ruled him out with a sample submitted to ancestry by a relative from his adopted fathers side? Missing that Richard Allen was adopted?

Adopted or having a stepfather? With a known father or not? OK, let us assume, adopted.

Allen being a common name, I know a few, not necessarily from Indiana. Are all Allens related? Not paternally. However, given where the ancestors came from (England, Scotland perhaps slightly, Ireland), and how many Allens are there at Midwest, the chance to find Allens who would be related in Gedmatch is very high.

But what happens if Rick Allen is adopted? And it is not an NPE parent who later adopted (as such things happen), but a truly unrelated man. So they run BG's (unknown man's) DNA through Gedmatch and there might be a hit with some 6th cousin Allen who randomly matches unknown DNA (because at the level of 6th cousins lots of people might be related), but not enough to work with. And if Indiana Allens have the same Y haplotype, say, R1B1, and RA has, imagine, I haplotype, then the answer would be, "he is not Allen".

Much depends on biodad. Supposedly, he is living in the US and his relatives are in the system. So genetic genealogists make trees, find some "potential matches", maybe even work down the tree, collect DNAs from someone living close at Midwest, but all these "possible" matches are misses. Because RA is not in those trees.

Or, even more complicated. Imagine, biodad lives abroad. Not only may he not be in the system. I Googled countries 23@me ships to. EU mostly, but for some odd reason, even France is off the list. Mexico is off the list. All Latin America is off. Turkey... you name it. (maybe it has to do with genetic laws in these countries). Any US expat living abroad might at least have relatives in the US. But a student on a sabbatical in the US who had a kid and then moved back to France or Argentina... chances are, his relatives won't be in Gedmatch. Gedmatch is mostly fed by people living in the US.

Now there is also the other line, the maternal one. Lots of things to find there, maybe more. All is possible if she is a local, US-born, if her relatives are cultured, interested in genetics, believe in DNA. If they have money for these tests. A lot depends on how common her mitogroup is.

If they don't have a very good DNA to start with, and part of this DNA is from someone not in Gedmatch, then, yes, it could be a hassle.

Another situation. What if LE had no nuclear DNA, but just a hair from the CS? Nowadays people learned how to extract nuclear DNA from hair, but I suspect, the quality of the material varies. And plus they didn’t do it in 2017 yet. But, mitochondrial DNA is abundant. How much can be gleaned from it? Something, if women in her maternal line did not die childless. But imagine this - RA’s mom has direct maternal relatives with kids, and hers mito DNA is common, say, H, or HV. But mitochondrial DNA mutates. So in the unhappy circumstance the mutation happened in RA's mom, her DNA is H with a rare private mutation, and no one in Indiana matches her! And she is not into genealogy. It happens.

There are so many options why it didn’t work.

 

[Charlot123]

I cant stop looking at this side by side comparison. I just can't.

To be honest I don’t see much similarity. The philtrum (area between the nose and the mouth) is very short in YBG and rather long in RA, the chin is exaggerated in YBG and significant, but not heavy in RA. Maybe they couldn’t tell much about the lower face because he covered it, or, “something else”.

 

[mrjitty]

I agree, but it’s the most basic question they could have asked. I’d like to know how he would have reacted.

I suppose I am saying we don't know what was asked or investigated, which is why I think we should wait for the AA and prelim before blame gets assigned.

But as a general point, if the only physical evidence that links RA to the crime, was located in his house, there is no manner of investigation that gets LE to PC for a search. Especially going to ask him if he did the murders (in effect) doesn't seem like a great strategy.

So I am also wondering, what gave them PC for a search? What evidence could have been found 5 years later?

Or did suspicions develop from a human source?

my 02c

 

[mrjitty]

If he volunteered that he was there on the bridge that afternoon, I'm pretty sure he was willing to talk to LE, at least initially.

To me it seems like for every person who could conceivably be BG who was on the trails that afternoon, LE needed to create a timeline of their day and verify it. If RA said he was on the bridge in the afternoon, then you ask him where he was before that and where he went afterward. Then you try to verify that story. If there's anything a little off, or if you can't verify his whereabouts right after the girls were taken, then you try to get warrants for his phone records. If those place him near the scene at the right time, you try to get warrants for his house/car/etc.

That's basically what they seem to have done with RL. It's possible they followed up and did that with Allen as well. But the way the most recent articles have been written makes me think they may not have. I guess we will find out eventually.

I think they will have had the general tower records anyway - so I assume that didn't take them anywhere?

I agree this is the stuff you do, but I suspect it is difficult to develop PC out of it - which brings me full circle as to what they found that gave them PC for the search ...

 

[JudgeJudi]

If he went hours after the murder, where was he before he talked to the conservation officer? Also if he did so hours after then I think it’s likely he didn’t know the kids recorded him. Wonder what his reaction was when that news broke??

<modsnip>

It couldn't have been the day the girls were murdered because their bodies weren't found until about 12:15 p.m. the following day (February 14). A presser was held later that day, and I'm guessing it was probably very late in the afternoon or in the evening. IMO the earliest he would have reported to the conservation officer would have been on February 15.

From then on I suspect he became quite a news junkie and watched a lot of YT videos whenever his wife wasn't around. He would have been alarmed when he became aware on April 22 that Libby had filmed him on her phone and heard himself saying "Down the hill". As the years ticked by, he probably kept his fingers crossed that he just might get away with murder. He must have known his days of freedom were coming to an end when an all-day search of his property was conducted about 16 October. He was arrested on 26 October.

 

[taylorss]

I totally agree with you. When the OBG sketch was issued to the public, it was issued as if it replaced the other sketch. JMO

Yeah … not only that but there were statements at the time that the man pictured in OBG had been located & was no longer being sought… so ehhhhh
Moo

 

[taylorss]

I think they will have had the general tower records anyway - so I assume that didn't take them anywhere?

I agree this is the stuff you do, but I suspect it is difficult to develop PC out of it - which brings me full circle as to what they found that gave them PC for the search ...

On the Down the Hill podcast Robert Ives discussed how difficult the technological aspects of this case had been (leading me to think that LE’s ignorance of technology was the main problem getting this solved JMO)

One point Ives made was that everyone assumed they could get all cell tower records just by demanding them or whatever, but that’s not how warrants work! LE has to be clear & targeted about what they’re looking for & why they think it will be there.

They can’t get a warrant for all nearby cell tower data - that would be like having a warrant that everyone who lives within 5 miles of the crime needs to throw open their front door & LE will walk by & peer in.

 

[taylorss]

I've kind of wondered if they meant unconnected instead of unfounded. I can't make any sense out of it. JMO

Yeah same here! the whole conservation officer story is just bizarre!

As to whether RA talked to this officer on the 13th, I also read that date as ref to the girls’ murder rather than RA’s tipping himself in… cuz on the 13th the girls were merely “missing.” If the date given was meant to fix RA’s appearance in the crime timeline, it wouldn’t really be accurate to phrase it as it was. Imo

But then on the other hand if RA tipped himself in while the girls were missing but before they were found - much easier to imagine LE paying little attention & just letting him go! They didn’t even know for sure they had a crime yet so weren’t looking for a perp.
JMO

 

[Trebor5591]

A composite sketch was released by the ISP on July 17, 2017 of a man considered the main suspect. It was drawn in part from descriptions provided by someone who saw the suspect. Tobe Leazenby said the witness saw the man walking near Delphi and met with an FBI sketch artist to provide facial details for the rendering of the sketch. He said the witness saw the man around the time the girls were killed.

Kim Riley said at a news conference that the witness who saw the suspect was close enough to him to say that he did not have blue eyes, but was uncertain of his eye colour.

Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths

Blue eyes will look blue but hazel eyes and brown eyes can have varying shades of melanin and can easily be mistaken for one another. Here are some stock images. The first 2 are hazel eyes and the last 2 are brown.

View attachment 380083View attachment 380084View attachment 380086View attachment 380087

Those are all photos of brown eyes. Or light brown eyes if you will. "Hazel eyes" is just an affectation by someone who wants to be different. IMO.