Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #158

[OverTheRhine]

Let’s not forget, this PCA was drawn up with just enough information to produce probable cause and allow for a search warrant.

They proved Probable Cause and then they searched.

We know some evidence they had before the search due to the PCA.

We have no idea what was discovered after the search.

Again, RA was NOT arrested at the time of the search. He was arrested approx two weeks after the search and this is a significant detail.

So now LE has the vehicle, and they removed other articles from the home and apparently, something from the backyard. What those items are we do not know.

Obviously, forensics went to work on these items. MOO clear and defining evidence of RA’s involvement in the murders was produced from 1 or more of the items seized. DNA? Please let it be DNA.

Whatever it was, it bolstered the PCA and made a case for arrest.

It is premature to assume this case will not stand up at trial. We actually have NO IDEA what physical evidence the Prosecution has developed. Upon Discovery, RA and his team are going to have to decide if they want to fight or plea. The strength of the evidence will be a deciding factor.

It’s great that the PCA has been released and we can all read it. The strength or weakness of the case is yet to be determined.

Buckle up my friends, this PCA is just the tip of the iceberg. The storm is yet to arrive.

MOO

All of this is incredibly important to remember as outsiders. This was the bare minimum to search. We don't know what else they found. His wife admitted he had the blue Carthart jacket, maybe he still has it and they have DNA. We don't know. I really have no doubt RA is the man on the bridge unless he's the most unluckiest person on Earth. He seems to tell the detectives a little more and more as it is revealed as to explain away witness testimony as far as going ON the bridge.

 

[LeBlack]

Why didn't the actual witnesses mentioned in the PC ID him every time they went into CVS?

The defense is going to be ALL OVER that.

Because he was wearing a uniform, not his BG getup. When people know someone as (say a nurse) in one setting, they don't necessarily recognize them in the grocery store. (or they just have a sense of de ja vu)

MOO

 

[lonetraveler]

Perhaps they're hoping RA rolls on KAK?

JMO but I think it's the other way around. Maybe KAK rolled on RA

 

[cbeagle]

Let’s not forget, this PCA was drawn up with just enough information to produce probable cause and allow for a search warrant.

They proved Probable Cause and then they searched.

This is the PCA for the arrest, not the search warrant.

 

[scapa]

Not necessarily if you’re a young teenage girl especially one of slight height.

Was gonna say -- my kids have a very modest range of description when it comes to adult heights that loosely matches the one they have for adult age -- any male who is taller than them but under, say, the height of an NBA centre is 5' 10," and anyone older than their favourite teacher is "45" or simply "old."

I'm actually impressed that these witnesses took the time to interact with and examine the man on the trails -- although this may have been (sadly) a necessary survival instinct given their age and gender -- and then took the time to contact LE with what was clearly a crucial tip, whether or not it was appropriately processed.

I do think a defence attorney will attempt to elasticate this info until it no logner describes RA -- but that is what redirect and reinforcing evidence are for.

 

[NuttMegg]

Presumably he loaded his gun before going, er, hunting? So maybe he wasn't wearing gloves? I don't think they mentioned fingerprints on the round found 2' from Libby. In the guns I've owned leaving a partial thumbprint would have been routine in loading a revolver. And from first finger. Don't know anything about this gun in question, though, if the bullets are loaded one by one?

While I'm at it, I am 100% convinced he learned from someone that the girls would be there. He could have killed that single female witness if he wasn't targeting/waiting for Abby and Libby.

Also, I didn't see anything mentioned that could have been searched for in the river recently, so they have held back lots, imo.

 

[gritguy]

Presumably he loaded his gun before going, er, hunting? So maybe he wasn't wearing gloves? I don't think they mentioned fingerprints on the round found 2' from Libby. In the guns I've owned leaving a partial thumbprint would have been routine in loading a revolver. And from first finger. Don't know anything about this gun in question, though, if the bullets are loaded one by one?

While I'm at it, I am 100% convinced he learned from someone that the girls would be there. He could have killed that single female witness if he wasn't targeting/waiting for Abby and Libby.W

Also, I didn't see anything mentioned that could have been searched for in the river recently, so they have held back lots, imo.

The rounds are carried in a magazine for this firearm. Usually that involves pressing down w a thumb but I suppose they didn’t get a print here. I also think there was someone who set this meeting up. If LE believe a 2nd person was at play that seems most likely to me how.

 

[TL4S]

The bullet was found 2 feet away from one of the girls but in between them so they were farther apart from each other than I had imagined.

The Hoosier Harvestore didn't have video of RMA walking on CR 300N? Hmmm.

The apparent distance between the girls was farther than I had imagined, as well.

I also wondered the same thing you say about the Hoosier Harvestore not having video of RMA walking, yet had the footage of the person driving at 3:57pm. We know the muddy and bloody guy matching the description was seen on the north side of the road walking west, but we don't know exactly where on 300 Rd. he was seen, east or west of Hoosier Harvestore. The fact that he was on the north side of the road sort of makes me wonder if he tried to mostly avoid walking the road and cut through the fields on the north side of 300 Rd., behind the Harvestore, and over to the CPS lot. Less convenient for him, but if he was muddy and bloody...

Jmo.

 

[EOA]

Sorry if mentioned in the last 8 pages - trying to catch up...

Per PCA, RA stated to interviewers in '22 that he (on 2/13/17) was wearing either a blue or black Carhartt jacket.
Does that imply that he owned both a blue and a black Carhartt jacket, (could he have been wearing both color jackets one underneath the other hence witness seeing black and other witness seeing blue - or do you think he just couldn't recall, or didn't desire to commit to, what color the jacket was that he owned at that time?

Per PCA, wife KA states RA still owns a blue Carhartt jacket.
implying he no longer also owns a black one? is the blue one he owns now the same one owned in '17?

Also wondering (LE should obviously already know), in RA's PCA mention of the 3 (juvenile) females he passed near the Freedom Bridge, he states "one was taller than the others". Could this be that one may have been like age 16-17, maybe a babysitter or older sister, and the others perhaps ages 8-9? That could explain why he bypassed these potential victims moreso than if the 3 juveniles were similar in age to A&L?

 

[RedArcher]

I am leaning toward him using the gun as a kidnapping tool. We know he points it and then says GDTH. I questioned earlier why we're not hearing about shots being fired from witnesses.

I've come to the conclusion that there were none. As I said, I believe the gun was to threaten them to get them DTH so he could... do stuff to them. We know there was a lot of blood at the scene. Since there's been talk of a knife in both RLs PC, and RMA's as well... I think he used the knife to kill them. It's quiet (except for screaming) and likely why his clothing was bloody (frontal spray).

What I don't like about where my mind is going with this is if there was no sign of a struggle or a fight, and their clothing was removed, is that he killed them first, and then did whatever perverse thing(s) he did. Because I can't imagine them not struggling and putting up a fight at the point where he's trying to get their clothes off. Sure, they could have been frozen with fear but I don't think so. I was almost raped at 15. I was passed out on a bed in a basement. I could only muster an "Off... off...". He didn't get off so even in my very drunken state, I thought about what was close at hand. The nightstand! I grabbed the lamp and hit him over the head with it. Yeah, I've posted before in other threads where I tend to get angry when ticked off. Abby and Libby weren't passed out drunk. I'd have thought they'd have fought or run. I know I would have. With all that said... this just came to me. Perhaps the gun is what kept them from running off. It's all so very sad.

Also, I can't imagine the girl who wasn't not having her clothing removed at the moment to not hightail it out of there. I know, some think she'd have stuck around for her friend but I'm not so sure. I think their deaths were quick once he got them down the hill (and why no signs of a struggle), then removed their clothing and did whatever he did before getting the heck out of dodge before someone saw him. What a disgusting human being.

The gun could have been what he used to make them undress, he could have told them at gunpoint to undress willingly and they would not be harmed.

 

[Elley Mae]

Sorry if mentioned in the last 8 pages - trying to catch up...

Per PCA, RA stated to interviewers in '22 that he (on 2/13/17) was wearing either a blue or black Carhartt jacket.
Does that imply that he owned both a blue and a black Carhartt jacket, (could he have been wearing both color jackets one underneath the other hence witness seeing black and other witness seeing blue - or do you think he just couldn't recall, or didn't desire to commit to, what color the jacket was that he owned at that time?

Per PCA, wife KA states RA still owns a blue Carhartt jacket.
implying he no longer also owns a black one? is the blue one he owns now the same one owned in '17?

Also wondering (LE should obviously already know), in RA's PCA mention of the 3 (juvenile) females he passed near the Freedom Bridge, he states "one was taller than the others". Could this be that one may have been like age 16-17, maybe a babysitter or older sister, and the others perhaps ages 8-9? That could explain why he bypassed these potential victims moreso than if the 3 juveniles were similar in age to A&L?

Iirc The sketch released in 2019 was done in the days after murders from a young witness, I wonder if the three he refers to is L&A and the witness.

 

[Boxer]

I am still trying to figure out what was so secret about the charging document. It is a bit flimsy. But not worth the drama of keeping it sealed. JMO.

MOO. the girls on the trail. They are still terrified.

 

[MistyWaters]

Exactly. It's a defense attorneys dream. "So, you say a Purple PT Cruiser was parked at the old CPS building during the time of the murders?" Well, I guess that's the person that did it, then, because a Purple PT Cruiser looks NOTHING like the defendant's vehicle.

RA admitted he was parked at the “old Farm Bureau” building that afternoon. CCTV from Hoosier Harvestore captured vehicle just like his Ford Focus travelling by at 1:27 and he stated he arrived at the trails at 1:30. Therefore witnesses IDing (or mis-identifying) his vehicle is not the sole evidence in placing him there.

 

[girlhasnoname]

MOO. the girls on the trail. They are still terrified.

Agreed and I bet they are worried to death about being harassed and doxed by every arm chair detective on the internet. This was a traumatic event for these young girls, and I hope they are supported through this entire thing.

 

[MistyWaters]

Iirc The sketch released in 2019 was done in the days after murders from a young witness, I wonder if the three he refers to is L&A and the witness.

The three juvenile witnesses were interviewed, statements included in the PC. Two of the three was definitely not Libby and Abby.

 

[Jealoushe]

I think its good to keep in mind that even if they knew it was him, that doesn't mean at the time they had the evidence to prove it. Or maybe they knew all the information but couldn't link it to RA.

Even with this evidence people are saying it's not enough. But then also lamenting RA wasn't arrested earlier. Can't have it both ways.

LE likely knew they didn't have enough to convict, and have been waiting for their break for a long time. Seems like the search of RAs place got them the gun and that officially sealed the deal.

 

[photographer4]

They might have stumbled upon two bodies, but didn’t initially realize the girls were dead and how they died. This is how I explain what happened. It must have been a horrible view, no one would say “stuff nightmares are made of” for no reason. However, everything is missing in affidavit and it looks empty.

We have to wonder - did they write such a scant PCA knowing the public would likely gain access to it and that they were still investigating some aspect or someone possibly in regards to this crime??

 

[Jealoushe]

Sure. But my point is that how are they going to ID him in court? And if they can't, will the judge even admit their testimony? It's supposed to be witnesses against him. It could be argued that they are just witnesses to a random person at the park.

From what I understand the investigators identify him based on the description the witnesses gave. Not that the witnesses said - We saw RA. So I don't think they will attempt to prove that.

Just that they saw a male who was wearing XYZ that was the height/weight etc of RA.

 

[Chuckwagon22]

Sorry if mentioned in the last 8 pages - trying to catch up...

Per PCA, RA stated to interviewers in '22 that he (on 2/13/17) was wearing either a blue or black Carhartt jacket.
Does that imply that he owned both a blue and a black Carhartt jacket, (could he have been wearing both color jackets one underneath the other hence witness seeing black and other witness seeing blue - or do you think he just couldn't recall, or didn't desire to commit to, what color the jacket was that he owned at that time?

Per PCA, wife KA states RA still owns a blue Carhartt jacket.
implying he no longer also owns a black one? is the blue one he owns now the same one owned in '17?

Also wondering (LE should obviously already know), in RA's PCA mention of the 3 (juvenile) females he passed near the Freedom Bridge, he states "one was taller than the others". Could this be that one may have been like age 16-17, maybe a babysitter or older sister, and the others perhaps ages 8-9? That could explain why he bypassed these potential victims moreso than if the 3 juveniles were similar in age to A&L?

Years ago when I used to work outside in the winter, I owned that same blue Carhartt jacket. It's an extremely dark blue, and could easily be misconstrued as being black in the right/wrong lighting. Just my 2 cents haha.

 

[Justice101]

His jacket and boots will no doubt be exhibits in a trial... when all of the prosecution evidence is entered and his defense gets the discovery, I think he will advise his client to take a plea deal.