Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Same.

At this moment in time, I am not prepared to concede that the bullet found between the girls belongs to RA. If it does, that's enough for a conviction for me. But I need to see more evidence than what was presented in the PCA to concede the bullet came from RA's gun. Having said that, I do believe that the PCA has enough evidence to support the arrest warrant, and at the end of the day, that is the purpose of the PCA.

This is a big part of what is giving me pause. These witness accounts are contradictory (blue clothes vs. black clothes, etc.), and if it comes to putting these witnesses on the stand, I don't think that it will go well for the prosecution. Was the man depicted in YBG sketch the same person as original BG? If they were different, there couldn't have been only one person. If they are the same person, why do the sketches look so different? And as I have mentioned, it doesn't appear that any of the witnesses IDed RA. Add in the confusion about the car (Ford Focus vs. small SUV vs. smart car), and I wonder how many of the things alleged in the PCA would be convincing to a potential jury.

I understand that the PCA is not meant to prove the prosecution's case. I think that LE did what it had to do with the PCA, but I hope that they have significantly more evidence that what was used in the PCA. And if the PCA is representative of the quality of evidence that they have, I will be nervous. I want the man responsible for this heinous crime behind bars forever.
A LOT of people confuse the colors (dark or navy) blue and black. And from far away or if a person is not really paying attention blue and black can look the same. I am a graphic designer who obsesses over color. But there are many situations where If someone asked me what color shirt someone was wearing I may be only able to identify it as being either "light" or "dark".
 
From that link:

Garrett explained that an "unspent bullet is one that has the casing and the projectile still together." To get that, he said one of two things happens: 1.) Someone tries to fire the gun but it's a faulty bullet and it doesn't fire, or 2.) The gun jammed, which Garrett said is common.

It's more like one of three things: 3.) Just to make a threat, someone racks the slide on the gun, not intending to fire. This will eject one cartridge harmlessly except for getting that someone caught if he's dumb enough to murder two girls and leave it behind.

I seriously doubt he intended to fire with unknown numbers of people within easy hearing distance.
Yes, Garrett should not have overlooked that likely scenario.

What concerns me is that I have yet to see it proved that ejector pin marks are unique. If they are, then the prosecution will have to prove that to the jury. If they are not distinct enough to say with 100% certainty that the bullet was cycled through RA's gun, then the prosecution's case becomes quite weak indeed—unless, of course, there's compelling evidence against RA that was left out of the PCA.
 
Whuhh ?? For years we’ve all been listening to the audio track of him speaking in the video Libby took of him with her phone lol

Quoting the PCA:
“Near the end of the video a male is seen and heard telling the girls, ‘Guys, Down the hill’”
Also, there is obviously more video than what they have released. We haven't heard or seen all of it.
 
thanks.

But do you know how deep the river is there can it be easily waded across? in my head i was thinking something bigger. If it can me easily waded then my question is basically moot.
IIRC, the area in the CREEK they would have crossed is doable.
it is not over the head deep and most spots are knee high deep.
JMO from being there.
 
Last edited:
I think it will be fine if the prosecutor is careful not to call conflicting witnesses whose testimony adds no value to the timeline and only introduces conflicting statements. I suppose the defense could call the juveniles as hostile witnesses to muddy the waters, but what would be the point? RA admits he saw them and passed them, so that happened. RA verified it himself. As a juror, I wouldn't need to hear anything from the juveniles at all.

The prosecutor just needs to be careful and not call witnesses the defense can use to throw doubt into the case. My opinion only.

RSBM. I agree with everything you said, including the part that I snipped. The reason that the defense may call the three witnesses is to introduce the possibility of a second person being there. Who was the person dressed in all black, and where was he at the time of the murders? How about the person who was 5'10"? And so on.

On a separate note, as the defense, I would really want to interrogate the person(s) responsible for giving the description that lead to the YBG sketch. More people at the bridge, especially since the identity of YBG still appears unknown, equals more doubt. If I recall correctly from the "new direction" PC (or from the clarifying statements that followed), law enforcement said that sketch was the result of someone who saw a person after the suspected time of the murders. Was that the woman who saw the bloody and muddy man? The defense wants to create uncertainty so they are going to explore every and all avenues to create doubt.
 
Last edited:
You guys fast, cant keep up lol. Anyway had finally some time to wrap my head around this PCA thing.

I think I've stated here and everywhere since the arrest that something felt off. I even was unsure if they really have the right man. Well no doubts here anymore, they have the guy. RA placed himself there, he told what he was wearing and it matches the man in the video (who we now know without a doubt was the one who told the girls "down the hill") and he owns a gun that matches the bullet found on the scene. Also there were no other male individuals seen on the trails at that time. To me it seems he all but confesses being the BG and killing the girls.

Even without the bullet and the gun it seems quite obvious it was him so I'm not even gonna dig into those. IMO all that we know now can be explained away by defense but I'm sure now that they have RA there will be lots of more solid evidence they can pin on him.
 
It's nice to know his attorney confirmed that RA kept his clothes, hopefully there is enough DNA on them to convict.

I do have to agree the Ford Focus looks nothing like a PT Cruiser or a Smart Car, but my teen daughter would disagree. And most people who don't know anything about cars would probably not know the difference.
Oddly enough, while walking today, I noticed a black Ford Focus off in the distance. Now I can completely see how someone from a distance who is also moving could have that impression.
 
i still have a question about how this went down, but i'm having trouble explaining it and i'm hoping a picture might be worth a thousand words. Can anyone answer this or is it still unknown?(note: i don't know the exact body location point on my map is the general area so don't flip out on me lol)

View attachment 384098
1669950325498.png
1669950431062.png
 
That's a really weird way for a state to do that IMO. It's also wasteful. :( Here we can reuse the same plate for decades, and even transfer it to a new car (although not many dealers know how to do this because hardly any car buyer knows they can ask to keep their old plate!). We have to renew the registration and pay for new tags to go on the plates (front and back) every 2 years. It's not much money (I don't recall the amount but it's not hundreds)!

IN should do it that way IMO. Then it wouldn't have been necessary for RMA to back his car in to hide the plate. ;) It also makes it so you can only get a license # if you see the rear of the car. That's weird and doesn't help LE. "Sorry, officer... I only saw the front of the car so couldn't get a plate number".
You don't have to get a new plate every year--you add a decal every year. Plates/decals are expired because of how expensive the costs are every time.
 
They have to explain when the kids met him and what exactly happened next. Why they think he did it and how. And what happened after.
MOO When they met and what happened next is on the video/audio. The bridge, the recorded words about him having a gun, being ordered down the hill.
They then obviously walked to the creek/crime scene.

How he did it will be shown by the forensics. They do not need to explain or guess why he did it. That will be explained to the jury, if there even is a trial. They can even state they don't know or want to speculate on motive.

A witness saw a bloody muddy man walking in the area afterward, I'd guess it would show he was en route to his vehicle, for which we don't yet know the results of forensics testing.

What really needs to be shown is enough evidence for a jury to reach a guilty verdict. In my opinion, until a prosecutor presents all the evidence, in court or after discovery, we won't know how convincing it is. MOO
 
i still have a question about how this went down, but i'm having trouble explaining it and i'm hoping a picture might be worth a thousand words. Can anyone answer this or is it still unknown?(note: i don't know the exact body location point on my map is the general area so don't flip out on me lol)

View attachment 384098
There are numerous maps posted on this thread that accurately reflect the gps coordinates of the location where the bodies were found. If you look directly south from the center of the cemetery property, at/in/just north of the creek/creek bed, is the crime scene.

 
I used to work in a color matching department. I'm not color blind and yet I struggle with dark blues and blacks. If I'm sorting socks, for example, I need a known black sock to compare all the others to. I can see how blue and black can be confused. JMO
 
Yes, Garrett should not have overlooked that likely scenario.

What concerns me is that I have yet to see it proved that ejector pin marks are unique. If they are, then the prosecution will have to prove that to the jury. If they are not distinct enough to say with 100% certainty that the bullet was cycled through RA's gun, then the prosecution's case becomes quite weak indeed—unless, of course, there's compelling evidence against RA that was left out of the PCA.
The whole thing with cycling scratches acting as gun fingerprints was news to me until the PCA came out, so I don't know how that's going to play.

I tell you though, if I'm on that jury, the defense has a wall to climb before they can claim reasonable doubt. RA was there on the bridge then, by his own admission, and no witness puts more than one male there then.

All the witnesses describe someone who looks like RA. Someone like him walks in determinedly with his face obscured. Libby makes a video of someone like him, the only male known to be there, walking up to her and Abby.

One of the girls says "gun," so we can figure a gun was used to move them down the hill.

An hour and 40 minutes later, someone like RA walks muddy and bloody away from the scene and toward RA's car.

Somewhere in here, Occam's Razor is screaming at me, and we haven't even got to the bullet yet. The pieces are all fitting and it's getting unreasonable for it not to be just what it looks like.

Then we have a .40 round at the scene. I don't think it was left as a sick-o calling card. In that case he would have left it sitting directly ON one of the victims. It was unintended. But we DO know a gun was used, and here's this thing between the victims.

So then the prosecution says it can only have come from RA's gun out of all the .40 handguns on Earth. Just the icing on the cake for Me, The Jury.

Then the defense furiously spends three hours attacking that icing on the cake. It's not science, they say.

Maybe they do a half-decent job creating reasonable doubt about the extractor / ejector scratches being a unique signature. I'm probably unmoved. He was there. He was the only male there. He was all of those men, including Mr. "Guys... Down the hill" in the video.

Anyway, what are the odds somebody other than the killer lost a .40 bullet in just the location where later on some guy who used a gun to kidnap two girls leaves them dead? Oh! The cartridge is a semi-unusual caliber. And the guy who admits being there but didn't do it owns a handgun, which he never lends out, of that caliber? Pull the other leg!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
91
Guests online
1,491
Total visitors
1,582

Forum statistics

Threads
605,793
Messages
18,192,347
Members
233,543
Latest member
Dutah82!!
Back
Top