Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[Pnut]

I still want to know if there was a exchange at the beginning of the bridge. I guess I will never know though. Something spooked Libby that meant later on she took video as he came up behind them.

Agree. In the least complicated scenario I can picture to explain her filming him from so far away, he met them somewhere on the trail before the bridge, and attempted some lame flirtation, on a whim, which justifiably got him laughed at. The girls continue on, crossing the bridge while he sulks and nurses his ego up the trail. He’s not insignificant, and he’s going to prove it, and he goes back to the bridge. (He essentially describes loitering up the trail after watching fish, does he not?) He’s a creep to them as soon as they see him the second time, and she’s going to get him on the record this time. :/

 

[gizmobtj]

Sorry if this is already been rehashed a million times, but is the area “down the hill” hidden from view and hard to reach because of the sketchy bridge? I wasn’t following closely in the beginning. I’m just wondering how the killer felt so brash as to do this horrendous act in broad daylight near hiking trails frequented by multitudes of people.

This is a matter of great debate, but I'd say no. They could have gone in at least three directions, the safest probably being right behind them and around a fence and straight to three houses. Although, one of the houses is separated by an open field (i.e. shooting gallery).

All my opinion here:

If I, in my opinion, had to take a guess, based on what's in the PC, the apparent gap between "guys" and "down the hill" in the releases and the "gun" statement, it went something like:

- they notice BG and start talking about him before the filming begins
- Libby starts filming Abby and BG is far in the background (hence the low quality of him in the video vs. the snaps)
- they are waiting for him to cross so they can head back
- then Abby senses him behind her and asks if he is right behind her and Libby confirms it
- Abby moves toward Libby and turns towards him and they probably discuss whether to go left or right but actually have their backs to the best escape route
- Then, some version of "Is that a gun?" from Abby; "Guys ..." from BG and "Yeah" from Libby on the gun and then ..."Down the hill"
- Hard to guess about whether they complied or just ran, but it has the same result

Either way, this is just my guess, based on what we know. The amount of time it would take for him to close the gap from the video still to being on top of them probably wasn't long and by the time they notice the gun, their options, IMO, shrunk drastically, not because there were only two options, but for two friends to figure it out and make a decsion it takes more than the split second it might take someone on their own.

And, then, there is High Risk Option 4, which an adult might take, which would have been to rush him because the time to draw and fire would allow you to close the gap on a assailant and probably knock them right off the bridge (yes, on 4, not that realistic, but a guy can dream ...)

 

[IceIce9]

Or the cash register time was wrong, though surely that would be verified.

Often in Indiana our cash register receipts are off by an hour, probably because we didn’t adapt Daylight Saving Time until 2007. While we would not have been on DST in February, I have found that many receipts are off by an hour, like someone changed the time to DST and forgot to switch it back.

I am certain that LE would have verified the time on the register.

Sometimes the register time is completely off, no rhyme or reason. Like no one has ever set the correct time.

I log dozens of receipts every month that I submit at work, so I probably pay more attention to the time on receipts than most people.

 

[Salah11]

Was it not said in the early days one of the girls had a chance to escape and stayed because they wasn’t going to leave their friend or am I misremembering?

 

[gizmobtj]

I've been wondering about this since I watched the one-time vid that MadMcGoo approved and posted upthread. RMA was coming from the east and driving west down W 300 N when he was seen on Hoosier Harvestore cam. Why would he come from that direction when the direct route from his house wouldn’t capture him traveling on W 300 N at ALL? (Deer Creek Township on the map is the approx. area of where the old CPA building was and where he parked).
View attachment 387898

What's east? Not a whole lot but RL lives east of Hoosier Harvestore cam. Coming from the east to where RMA parked isn't the direct route from RMA’s house to where he parked his car (unless he stopped by RL's house/property earlier in the day).

Yet he he was seen coming from the east. The only way to get to W 300 N from RMA’s house is to go pretty far east before you can go north on N 450 W since you can’t cross Deer Creek going north. I scrolled on the map and there’s not much east of town. However, RL’s house is east of the Hoosier Harvestore cam that RL was seen on at 1:27pm (1:47 mark in approved vid below) The red X marks where RL lived and the blue line shows you how far out of the way RMA would have had to drive to be seen traveling west on the cam if he had not taken the direct route to where he parked at the Old CPA. That’s pretty far out of the way when the direct route (above pic) makes more sense.
View attachment 387900

So, what I wonder is did LE check the cam for earlier in the day and see if they spotted RMA twice on the cam? Like traveling east down W 300 N on his way to RL’s by taking the direct route from his house there? Direct route to RL’s would have him traveling east on W 300 N past the cam. That would make sense to me why they saw him driving west on the cam @ 1:27. Hence me wondering did they check earlier in the day to see him traveling east, and then later on @ 1:27 west, or did they think they had seen enough when they saw him traveling west about the time just before things went down? If they didn't check earlier on the vid they missed out on an opportunity to potentially see RMA traveling east on his way to RLs.
View attachment 387901

For argument’s sake... let's say he didn't stop at RLs first. That still begs the question... why was he seen driving west down W 300 N when there’s not much east of town, and why didn't he take the direct route to the Old CPA lot from his house? Things that make ya go Hmmmm.....

Couple things:

1. He may not have known about the cameras at the store but wanted to make sure he did not approach or leave from or to the direction of his home
2. There could have been even more cameras in that direction
3. If I were to commit a murder like that, not that I would, the last place I would come from or go to afterward would be my home

 

[gizmobtj]

MOO he was coming from somewhere else than home. For example after having lunch at the Flora Pizza King.

So very specific ... lol

 

[gizmobtj]

It would be interesting to see the PCA and warrant for the search on Bicycle Bridge Rd., too (wasn't there a third one?). There's probably a ton of docs that we don't know about.

There was one in Lebanon

Reward now more than $100,000 in Delphi murders of two teens

Indiana State Police said any information people are seeing on social media about a possible arrest earlier Tuesday is simply not true.

www.wishtv.com

 

[gizmobtj]

I think the knife is exactly what they were searching for in the river near Peru. Jmho

Interesting. That would make a lot more sense than a cell phone

 

[Gemmie]

Was it not said in the early days one of the girls had a chance to escape and stayed because they wasn’t going to leave their friend or am I misremembering?

There's no way anyone could know that since the 2 victims are dead and RMA is claiming he's innocent. I've seen this theory from various poster's. I think it's definitely possible it could have gone down that way, but as I said, how would anyone know that? Only the killer knows that and he's not talking.

 

[FrostedGlass]

There was one in Lebanon

Reward now more than $100,000 in Delphi murders of two teens

Indiana State Police said any information people are seeing on social media about a possible arrest earlier Tuesday is simply not true.

www.wishtv.com

Yes, that one was the one I was thinking about but then I read that it was not related to the crime.

 

[Salah11]

There's no way anyone could know that since the 2 victims are dead and RMA is claiming he's innocent. I've seen this theory from various poster's. I think it's definitely possible it could have gone down that way, but as I said, how would anyone know that? Only the killer knows that and he's not talking.

I thought if it had been said it came from LE. So maybe from the positions of the bodies or the wounds on the body?

I don’t know how LE would of know that but as I said I could be mistaken as it’s been so long now. I wonder how hard it is to control 2 girls in boggy land even with a gun it can’t be that easy imo

 

[gizmobtj]

How would KAK know where RA’s knife had been tossed if he wasn’t involved in the murders?

Imagine KAK as a prosecution witness testifying under oath, never will happen! His zero credibility is enough to create reasonable doubt. The defense would spin that around on a dime resulting in a not guilty

If he did, would he have to testify? A statement against interest is admissible as an exception to the hearsay. Out of court statements are not usually allowed because they are considered untrustworthy but if KK implicated himself, it might be allowed in. Now, it most cases, it requires the witness to be unavailable and the 5th Amendment would do that trick

 

[Ghosthunter]

I have sadly come to wonder (JMO) if the young guy sketch was done from the memory of one of Libby’s friends who’d seen pics of A_S …
moo

Yes!!! Iirc. moo. Been years since it was posted as that moo. Can't recall the official source.

 

[Pnut]

It's not my belief that RL murdered the girls, but I haven't crossed him off my list of having something to do with the whole mess. LE has said this case is complex and has tentacles. Tentacles makes me think of additional people involved. And if he was completely innocent here, why did he ask his cousin to lie for him saying he had picked RL up between 2:00-2:30 (which just so happens to coincide quite neatly with the timing this all went down). Even LE think that establishing an alibi prior to a crime being found is pretty much guilty.

I spelled all that out with SS's and link so it's easier for me to simply link to my old post.

Found Deceased - IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

I'm not FrostedGlass but the answer is yes. Pg 4 of RL's PCA. https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf 5:21....after the murders. Did he go there for a quick alibi? Imo.

www.websleuths.com

Ditto, and alternatively, maybe he knew he needed an alibi because he heard a scream on the afternoon of the 13th, or saw a bloody hunter come out of the woods, and later in the eve, or morning of the 14th, found the bodies, maybe from a distance above, and connected the dots. Not being possessed of record-breaking risk-reward discernment, he doesn’t want any part of that mess, and he decides it’s much better to have an explanation that removes him from his property at the time he heard or saw whatever, than to admit he found the bodies and did nothing, with his reputation for being violent. If his need for an alibi is connected to this case, and not some other unrelated and unlucky thing, then that’s probably his least conspiratorial type of role. That’s about as much as I can stretch my mind to leave room for both a suspicious alibi, and the least morally depraved connection.

 

[Laughing]

Was it not said in the early days one of the girls had a chance to escape and stayed because they wasn’t going to leave their friend or am I misremembering?

IIRC, LE said that Libby was a hero? Certainly could fit into that statement.

 

[FrostedGlass]

RL's PC and warrant are dated on March 17 and on that same day we have this article. There seemed to be a bit of a disconnect between the arms of the law.

Police search property where Indiana teens' bodies found; owner not a suspect
By Associated Press
• Mar 17, 2017 at 7:57 pm

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stressed that 77-year-old landowner Ronald Logan isn't considered a suspect in the killings of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams.

Police search property where Indiana teens' bodies found; owner not a suspect

Authorities investigating the killings of two Indiana teenagers on Friday searched the home and property of a man who owns the land where they were found

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[Gemmie]

So very specific ... lol

I'm not the OP but I'm guessing the OP posted that due to the fact below. Also, it very well could be why RMA was driving west past the Harvestore. But I'm thinking that's way too many CASM cooks in the kitchen. It's already hard to wrap your head around the 3 (RMA, KAK & RL), but to add a 4th? Then again, LE has said this case is complex with tentacles and that their might be others involved.

Carroll County’s First Deputy, Major Michael Thomas, filed a probable cause affidavit in Carroll Circuit Court alleging Flora Pizza King owner Mark J. “Joe” Sandifur, 36, had inappropriate contact with a 13-year-old youth.

Flora Pizza King owner arrested, charged with child molestation - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County’s First Deputy, Major Michael Thomas, filed a probable cause affidavit in Carroll Circuit Court alleging Flora Pizza King owner Mark J. “Joe” Sandifur, 36, had inappropriate contact with a 13-year-old youth. The court document stated the child was interviewed and stated Sandifur...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Also, KAK's PCA states his drop box started one of the largest CASM investigations in IN history. While this is the internet age, you'd think those people would be all over the world, not all on top of each other in Delphi, Peru & Flora, IN. All MOO.

Pg 52:

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Tx-statement-Kegan-Kline-10-19-2-FINAL-VERSION-Redacted-1.pdf

 

[gizmobtj]

That's the thing though there's nothing crafty or stealth about this. It's sheer luck that RA's statement was misfiled or what have you. Nothing crafty about placing yourself at the scene and within the same timeframe as the murders. IMO.

Add to that: KK and RL were identified as suspects immediately after and RA gave himself up. If they are connected (and I'm not going to trust the DM on that), this would be an act of colossal LE failure followed by some really good LE work

 

[Gemmie]

I thought if it had been said it came from LE. So maybe from the positions of the bodies or the wounds on the body?

I don’t know how LE would of know that but as I said I could be mistaken as it’s been so long now. I wonder how hard it is to control 2 girls in boggy land even with a gun it can’t be that easy imo

Wounds on the body could make sense. For instance, if there were stabs wounds on the back of one of them it could mean she tried to make a run for it and was stabbed in the back to stop her.

 

[gizmobtj]

I'm not the OP but I'm guessing the OP posted that due to the fact below. Also, it very well could be why RMA was driving west past the Harvestore. But I'm thinking that's way too many CASM cooks in the kitchen. It's already hard to wrap your head around the 3 (RMA, KAK & RL), but to add a 4th? Then again, LE has said this case is complex with tentacles and that their might be others involved.

Carroll County’s First Deputy, Major Michael Thomas, filed a probable cause affidavit in Carroll Circuit Court alleging Flora Pizza King owner Mark J. “Joe” Sandifur, 36, had inappropriate contact with a 13-year-old youth.

Flora Pizza King owner arrested, charged with child molestation - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County’s First Deputy, Major Michael Thomas, filed a probable cause affidavit in Carroll Circuit Court alleging Flora Pizza King owner Mark J. “Joe” Sandifur, 36, had inappropriate contact with a 13-year-old youth. The court document stated the child was interviewed and stated Sandifur...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Also, KAK's PCA states his drop box started one of the largest CASM investigations in IN history. While this is the internet age, you'd think those people would be all over the world, not all on top of each other in Delphi, Peru & Flora, IN. All MOO.

Pg 52:

View attachment 388484

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Tx-statement-Kegan-Kline-10-19-2-FINAL-VERSION-Redacted-1.pdf

Agreed. I think they answer is that local CSAM rings are much less risky than all-online ones