Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[marisab67]

SBMFF

We don't all believe that RL asked for an alibi due to a DL ban. Here's why I don't believe that.

1) He only asked for an alibi before the girls were even found, and during the timeframe when the murders first went down.

2) He drove to the transfer station that morning and didn't feel he needed an alibi for driving without a license before the murders happened.

Lastly, LE thought the creation of an alibi prior to them being found indicates knowledge of that crime.

So to me, his seeking an alibi wasn't about not getting busted for driving without a license, it was about covering his butt when a murder on his property went down. I do not believe he's the killer, but I do think he knew what was going on when it was actually happening. If not, why ask your cousin to lie about a trip to another city during the exact timeframe a murder (and whatever else) transpired? And NOT ask for one for a transfer station run before the murders even took place?

ETA - Oopsie! Forgot to include my source: https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

Would love to know who called him or who he called from near the bridge at the same time Libby was posting snaps. That was the most curious part for me. RL thinking he needed an alibi before the girls were reported missing.

 

[marisab67]

I guess my question is Why is it so hard to believe there could be others involved? Especially since LE has said this case is complex with tentacles. Tentacles makes me think of more than 1 person. Also, they are continuing their investigation. It's not over with the arrest of RMA.

“This case is unlikely any that I’ve seen in an almost 40-year career,” Superintendent Carter tells WIBC’s Hammer & Nigel, “there are so many different tentacles to this. Its very complex.”

Carter says Richard Allen is the man charged with the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but detectives will continue to investigate anyone who may have a connection to the case – that includes Kegan Kline.

A "Complex" Case - ISP Superintendent Doug Carter Talks Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, "Police Sources" & What You Should Be Allowed to Know

DELPHI, Ind. -- Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, public documents and "police sources" - Superintendent Doug Carter with Indiana State Police covered it all when discussing the 2017 Delphi murders investigation Tuesday.

wibc.com

RA alone is very tentacle-less. So it must mean something more than a guy alone on a bridge watching some fish.

 

[Salah11]

Not so fast. We have not had a chance to view the evidence that RA's gun is the only one in which the cartridge could have been chambered. That is the opinion of law enforcement's experts, and it may well be correct, but it would be premature to accept that conclusion before the evidence has been presented in open court and fully vetted.

I believe that RA is most likely the perp, but no one should be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt YET with the limited amount of information that's been made public.

I am not LE if I wish to believe they have the right man then my opinion doesn’t change the outcome here.

RA has admitted he was on the bridge and all the evidence suggests he is their man. He is BG and so therefore I believe he is the culprit.

 

[gizmobtj]

Two thoughts. Been thinking:

(1)what if the part LE wanted sealed was about the PT Cruiser and smart car, not because witness testimony contradicted but because there was more than one car there and one or more were accomplices was driving them? It would make sense to meet there if people wanted to talk privately prior to the trail. I am curious about who else has a purple PT Cruiser that might be linked to this case. We know men have worked together in local CSAM rings and kidnappings (for example, Kidnap arrests over boy missing for 15 years - BBC News and Murder Sheet - The Delphi Murders: A Conversation with Crime Analyst Katalin Howard )

(2) The Wabash River search never made sense for a cell phone, but would for a weapon and burn pit searches would make sense for clothing. On this one, I am really curious where the Delphi investigators were on October 15
We’ve got KAK telling LE he went with his father to his grandmothers house on Feb. 13, 2017:

A break in the Delphi murders? Transcripts reveal new details

DELPHI, Ind. — For five years, the murders of 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German have hung over Delphi, ghosts that couldn’t be put to rest. On Feb. 13, 2017, the two best…

fox59.com

The Wabash River search in Peru, Ind. by the Delphi investigative team and divers two miles from KAK in July and August:

ISP search of Wabash River concludes, police not saying if anything was found

PERU, Ind. (WISH) — The five-week search of the Wabash River in Miami County is over. The big question still looms, is it connected to the murders of Abby and Libby in Delphi? Indiana State Police confirm to I-Team 8’s Richard Essex that police have concluded their search of the Wabash River in...

www.wishtv.com

The search of the fire pit at KAK’s grandmother’s house around the same time:

Case goes ahead against man linked to Delphi murders investigation

Sometimes it’s just as important in covering a court hearing to listen to what isn’t said as much as what is.

www.fox59.com

The ISP taking KAK out of jail

Court docs: ISP takes temporary custody of Kegan Kline

Police believe Kegan Kline's fake social media account was the last to communicate with Liberty German before her death in 2017.

www.wlfi.com

You’ve got the RA fire pit search on October 16:

Cops searched Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen’s home for 12 hours: neighbors

Non-uniform officers searched Richard Allen’s home, which he shared with wife Kathy, and their property for about 12 hours, according to neighbors.

nypost.com

 

[gizmobtj]

I guess my question is Why is it so hard to believe there could be others involved? Especially since LE has said this case is complex with tentacles. Tentacles makes me think of more than 1 person. Also, they are continuing their investigation. It's not over with the arrest of RMA.

“This case is unlikely any that I’ve seen in an almost 40-year career,” Superintendent Carter tells WIBC’s Hammer & Nigel, “there are so many different tentacles to this. Its very complex.”

Carter says Richard Allen is the man charged with the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but detectives will continue to investigate anyone who may have a connection to the case – that includes Kegan Kline.

A "Complex" Case - ISP Superintendent Doug Carter Talks Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, "Police Sources" & What You Should Be Allowed to Know

DELPHI, Ind. -- Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, public documents and "police sources" - Superintendent Doug Carter with Indiana State Police covered it all when discussing the 2017 Delphi murders investigation Tuesday.

wibc.com

It's pretty easy to believe. LE said they believed it. Why do people have a hard time believing it here? People get very vested in their theories (pro-KAK, anti-KAK, pro-RL, anti-RL, they hate the Murder Sheet and want their reporting to be proved wrong; pick)

 

[minazoe]

he is bridge guy and I would have loved to see the look on his face when he saw himself on video on every news channel in the world practically. I bet he about passed out..how can it be that he was not recognized? it boggles the mind! but what really blows my mind is how there was a video to begin with..this is the first case I think I ever heard of where the victim took video with a phone and it became part of the investigation. Libby was such a star and so smart. mOO

 

[gizmobtj]

Because that quote is literally years out of date. Just because they believed something 5 years ago doesn’t mean it holds true in 2022 imo

They obviously went back to the beginning hence why RA flagged. So I don’t believe their leads planned out and things changed.

IMO

That quote is from a month ago

A "Complex" Case - ISP Superintendent Doug Carter Talks Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, "Police Sources" & What You Should Be Allowed to Know

DELPHI, Ind. -- Richard Allen, Kegan Kline, public documents and "police sources" - Superintendent Doug Carter with Indiana State Police covered it all when discussing the 2017 Delphi murders investigation Tuesday.

www.google.com

 

[gizmobtj]

Delphi murders suspect slipped through net in 2017 due to ‘clerical error’

EXCLUSIVE: An affidavit released this week revealed that Richard Allen had actually been on the radar of law enforcement at the time of the murders and told police that he was at the scene of the murders in 2017

www.independent.co.uk

So they was going back though things and his name popped up as it had been missed.


This is not KAK supplying RA’s name to LE because they are connected.

Imo

I'd be cautious about thinking this anonymous source is being completely candid. Even if they went back and found misplaced reports (they dont say whether it was just his or more), I believe there are reasons they zeroed in on this misplaced one. It could be as simple as he placed himself there or his discretion or where he lived or his car or more.

 

[gizmobtj]

I'm just glad this piece of crap RA is behind bars finally. There will be some connection to KAK either as a fellow CSAM trader, seller or something. I don't know if they knew each other in 'real life', maybe only through the internet, but if KAK made a trip to Delphi the day of the murders, I'd say that pretty much puts to rest the speculation of his involvement somehow.

I get a physical, nauseous reaction when I look at a picture of KAK. He's a dangerous predator in my mind and I hope he goes away for a very long time.

#Justice4Abby&Libby
MOO

This could explain a lot -- if they knew each other but did not know each other's names ...

 

[gizmobtj]

YES!!!

RBBM.

One day more evidence implicating RA will be revealed and Occam's Razor will triumph once more. Include me in the group that believes any discussion regarding the despicable KK (and RL for that matter) should take place elsewhere.

Occam's Razor does not say the simplest explanation is usually the explanation. It merely says that in trying to understand something, getting unnecessary information out of the way is the fastest way to the truth and, or, to the best explanation. William Occam was a minimalist but he did not argue that one should ignore facts that appear connected. It applies to legal cases in that you prove the simple explanation and, then, attempt to reconcile or prove other explanations, which is what posters are trying to do

 

[gizmobtj]

I am aware of no evidence that RA is a "sexual/sadist". Perhaps that is your speculation? Who knows, you may be right.

And yes, I agree that murderers don't start out stalking and murdering at age 45--which is why some are open to the idea that RA--married to his HS sweetheart, a father and with no criminal history--might be the wrong guy.

But if he is the murderer of Abby and Libby, I pray there is more evidence than is presented so far. The strongest evidence is the bullet found at the murder scene, because none of the eyewitnesses that day can identify him--all they can say is that they saw someone dressed similar to how RA described his own attire that day.

The search warrant for RL said that some of the girl's clothing was missing--if the police found that during the search of his residence, that would remove all doubt, in my opinion.

If RA is the murderer, I hope he is convicted and sentenced to death--but there needs to be stronger evidence. I am praying for justice for Abby and Libby.

Eh. Serial killers tend to start in the 20s. Murderers tend to have a wider age bell curve

 

[Trebor5591]

Yes Pictures.

At trial there will be pictures/images of the ejected round found on the ground and pictures of a like round that was ejected from same (RA) weapon to show a match. Like a fingerprint.

Jmo

I am uncertain about the science of comparing tool marks from ejected rounds. Tool marks are tiny scratches on the casings of ammo ejected from a firearm. There is a lot of dispute on how accurate are the use of tool marks in court cases. Here is an interesting article that discusses efforts by The Innocence Project

Tania Brief, a senior staff attorney with The Innocence Project, said "research backing tool mark analysis is flawed.

“The problem is that you can have a million studies that purport to show something, but if those studies are not properly designed, they’re not meaningful.”

The Innocence Project, along with an array of university scientists, point to issues with research supporting tool mark analysis. They include small sample sizes, standards set by tool mark examiners themselves, and often studies are financed by law enforcement agencies that benefits from positive tool mark matches."

Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence, claiming it’s “not settled science.”

fox59.com

 

[Counttrarian]

Yes Pictures.

At trial there will be pictures/images of the ejected round found on the ground and pictures of a like round that was ejected from same (RA) weapon to show a match. Like a fingerprint.

Jmo

Respectfully, it's not a fingerprint and prosecution arguing that may open things up for appeal, even it's admissibility will likely be fought by the defense.
If they don't have more in the way of motive and solid evidence, reasonable doubt becomes a real possibility (especially when evidence of previous suspects are introduced).

 

[Chelly]

I think the shell casing will appear far less important when prosecutor produces its evidence at discovery. The ejected shell was helpful enough to assist in obtaining the search warrant. I believe it is the evidence not yet disclosed that will a great deal more powerful. It is just a matter of time. imo

 

[Boxer]

I am uncertain about the science of comparing tool marks from ejected rounds. Tool marks are tiny scratches on the casings of ammo ejected from a firearm. There is a lot of dispute on how accurate are the use of tool marks in court cases. Here is an interesting article that discusses efforts by The Innocence Project

Tania Brief, a senior staff attorney with The Innocence Project, said "research backing tool mark analysis is flawed.

“The problem is that you can have a million studies that purport to show something, but if those studies are not properly designed, they’re not meaningful.”

The Innocence Project, along with an array of university scientists, point to issues with research supporting tool mark analysis. They include small sample sizes, standards set by tool mark examiners themselves, and often studies are financed by law enforcement agencies that benefits from positive tool mark matches."

Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence, claiming it’s “not settled science.”

fox59.com

MOO don’t believe e they’re is much controversy about the uniqueness of tool
marks on a microscopic level.

MOO generating a controversy is what defense does so they can say “there is controversy.”

 

[Boxer]

Respectfully, it's not a fingerprint and prosecution arguing that may open things up for appeal, even it's admissibility will likely be fought by the defense.
If they don't have more in the way of motive and solid evidence, reasonable doubt becomes a real possibility (especially when evidence of previous suspects are introduced).

MOO don’t think there is a controversy about the uniqueness of tool marks on a microscopic level.

MOO generating a controversy is what defense does so they can say “there is controversy.”

 

[Vern]

MOO don’t think there is a controversy about the uniqueness of tool marks on a microscopic level.

MOO generating a controversy is what defense does so they can say “there is controversy.”

Indeed they do genertae controversy those defence lawyers; and many people do not understand the meaning of the word "reasonable" when considering "reasonable doubt". Thank goodness not many of them actually sit on juries.

 

[Laughing]

Indeed they do genertae controversy those defence lawyers; and many people do not understand the meaning of the word "reasonable" when considering "reasonable doubt". Thank goodness not many of them actually sit on juries.

Beg pardon, I spent an agonizing amount of time on just such a jury a few years back.

 

[Trebor5591]

I guess my question is Why is it so hard to believe there could be others involved? Especially since LE has said this case is complex with tentacles. Tentacles makes me think of more than 1 person. Also, they are continuing their investigation. It's not over with the arrest of RMA.

Its hard to believe for me because the probable cause affidavits related to the case say nothing about others being involved.

If there were others involved, I believe LE made a big mistake in not completing their investigation, assembling the evidence against all involved, and then arrest all of the parties. Instead they arrest Richard Allen only, but the prosecutor says publicly there are others involved, and so they are painting themselves into a corner.

Now they have to proceed against Richard Allen. Unless they move quickly and arrest these other involved parties, they are sabotaging their case against Richard Allen, IMO because RA's defense attorneys will be all over those careless comments made by the prosecutor about others being involved, and will use them to create reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury.

 

[Vern]

Beg pardon, I spent an agonizing amount of time on just such a jury a few years back.

As have I. Interestingly enough, we found the gentleman "not guilty".

But then, we weren't dealing with a case where:

- multiple, credible witnesses placed only a single, solitary male in extremely close proximity to a double murder crime scene where
- the victims also happened to have captured that male on video in that close proximity to cime scene at same time, wearing
- clothing described by witnessness and by the male suspect himself who also
- placed himself at the bridge where the crime began at the time the crime began wearing the same-type clothing the recorded suspect was admittedly wearing and
- the suspect himself never having seen another male in the vicinity either and
- who never stepped foot on the murder site and who
- never loaned his gun to anyone but
- whose unspent round, science shows, cycled through his gun and
- which just somehow miraculously ended up laying at the scene of the crime between the two victims and
- who also matched same, solitary male departing the immediate victinity of the crime all the while witnessed once again in
- bloody and muddy clothing that matched earlier lone male clothing descriptions walking up the road away from the crime scene. And all done at
- a time consistent with shortly after the crime occured which was
- also the time he admitted leaving the trails (yet he never heard or saw a thing ---lol).


Yet, some think it's actually "reasonable" that a thief or someone snuck into his house and - for whatever reason - stole a round he had cycled through his gun, or found it somewhere on the trail and "just happened to drop it in the midst of the scene of a crime" that he, himself would later be accused of committing. He, the only male seen there by multiple witnesses and where he placed himself at the time in question in the clothing in question. Nope; not reasonable.

Sorry, that's NOT reasonable. The odds are astronomical and ergo not reasonable. Hopefully, the judge gives this jury the same definition of what contstitutes "reasonable" that the jury I sat on got.