Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[minazoe]

Let's hope so. But what if there's not?

does there have to be more? think about it..and there are things they may have from the crime scene that we are certain to hear about, like a matching footprint, DNA maybe even a glove, but let's hope it's not a glove ! mOO

 

[EllaMinnowP]

I'm sure they have a cell next to RA for them if they do. It's difficult to protest innocence while you are breaking the law.

Well, as I said before: the gag order was not always in place. They could have spoken. I didn’t hear or see anything that even amounted to family attempting to visit RA. MOO I’m not sure how much they actually believe in him was what I was driving at. MOO

RE: The cell next to him, etc. There are bound to be legal routes and loopholes to get around this and make your voice heard. I imagine money is key in that situation, unfortunately.
The only other thing I can think of is “good trouble” where one believes in a cause so much that the consequences are worth it.
I hope I never have to find out how to navigate a situation like that.

 

[layer]

does there have to be more? think about it..and there are things they may have from the crime scene that we are certain to hear about, like a matching footprint, DNA maybe even a glove, but let's hope it's not a glove ! mOO

I have thought about it and if I'm on that jury and all they have is the unspent cartridge nonsense and the other things in the PCA I'm afraid I'd have to vote to acquit. They need more, a lot more. DNA works for me.

JMHO

 

[EllaMinnowP]

does there have to be more? think about it..and there are things they may have from the crime scene that we are certain to hear about, like a matching footprint, DNA maybe even a glove, but let's hope it's not a glove ! mOO

Yeah, let’s hope not on the glove! LOL
Love it

 

[minazoe]

Yeah, let’s hope not on the glove! LOL
Love it

Off topic DBM . I really do hope there is more evidence just to really seal the deal. I'm not too worried but the secrecy around proceedings etc is weird to me. mOO

 

[Betty P]

The state is not required to provide any statement explaining a dang thing, the judge said the prosecution has been diligent turning over the records, that’s the best the defense can hope for.
All they are required to do is send the records, it is the job of the defense to analyze them.
The prosecution isn’t required to give their opinion on any evidence, in essence, point out for the defense how they will use the evidence to get a conviction, that would be crazy!
The process has begun. It is “thousands upon thousands” of pages, in the judge’s words. I’m sure it will come in lots as it takes time to gather and prepare. Jmo
The police investigation records should show anyone else who they suspect or suspected being involved and the details of their investigation of that person or people, it’s not like they are hiding that information, it’s even in the PCA.
I assume they start sending records from the beginning, Feb 13, and work to the present.
The state has also said they continue to investigate, the records on that should come in later, as it progresses.

Edited to add: as @Betty P said, this will take years.
There will be many preliminary hearings arguing over what evidence can be used in court. Continuances will be requested and granted while the lawyers analyze the evidence and prepare their arguments before it goes to trial. Jmo

One positive aspect of this case is that there's only one defendant. There are two victims and one crime scene. Part of the reason the Rhoden / PIke County murder trials have taken so long is because there were 4 killers, 8 victims and 4 crime scenes. Depending on how quickly they get everything transcribed, the pre-trial phase could go on for more than a year, possibly longer. Judges and prosecutors want to be careful in a DP case to avoid the risk of a mistrial or hung jury. That's why they're careful to give the defense attorneys as much assistance as possible without revealing their strategy. The state also must obey the gag order strictly, or also risk a mistrial. The news media and public likely won't get any new information about these crimes, the victims or the defendant until the trial.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I remember the recent discussion about his felony murder charges.

So what if it goes like this: They have other suspects but they do not have enough evidence to charge them. They do, however, have enough evidence to prove that RA took those girls down the hill and the girls were murdered in the commission of that crime. Therefore, RL will be found guilty and will spend the rest of his life in jail for their murders.

Would a circumstance like that be ok?
What about the other suspect, who may have been the one who actually killed them?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I remember the recent discussion about his felony murder charges.

So what if it goes like this: They have other suspects but they do not have enough evidence to charge them. They do, however, have enough evidence to prove that RA took those girls down the hill and the girls were murdered in the commission of that crime. Therefore, RL will be found guilty and will spend the rest of his life in jail for their murders.

Would a circumstance like that be ok?
What about the other suspect, who may have been the one who actually killed them?

If others were involved in the scenario you put forth, RA is as guilty as they are of murder. Without his leading the girls to the killer they would be alive. He could have instead warned the girls to leave or notified police, but he chose not to do that. He was a cog in this murder wheel. The girls are dead because of him whether he killed them himself or assisted.
In that scenario I would have to say then RA is an idiot. If he forced the girls down the hill to others who killed them, I would think as soon as police arrested him he would have been screaming those killers names from the rooftops.

 

[mrjitty]

I’ve wondered this about the wife, daughter, and any other of RA’s loved ones.
Sure, the gag order’s in place now, but it wasn’t since his arrest back in October.
If I was accused of murder or any heinous act that my folks know is completely
far fetched for my character, I hope they would be making noise!

The fact that RA has been incarcerated for about 2 and a half months with no proof evident/ presumption strong hearing and therefore no bail hearing, either, AND not even expected to have such a hearing until next month makes me think someone should be making noise if they believe in RA’s innocence. Gag order be damned. Imo

I think the fact that they did not push for a timely bail hearing reveals the strength of the evidence they expect to confront. If they though they could get him out after a few weeks they likely would have tried.

 

[sandy_80]

I remember the recent discussion about his felony murder charges.

So what if it goes like this: They have other suspects but they do not have enough evidence to charge them. They do, however, have enough evidence to prove that RA took those girls down the hill and the girls were murdered in the commission of that crime. Therefore, RL will be found guilty and will spend the rest of his life in jail for their murders.

Would a circumstance like that be ok?
What about the other suspect, who may have been the one who actually killed them?

he had the weapons and was seen bloody and muddy after the crime.. no one else was spotted.. why the need to insert a phantom killer

 

[phantomstrider]

Question wasn’t to me, but I’d like to share my thoughts.

RA was “pre-splaining“. He knew he’d been seen by the three young witnesses. He gave a premeditated alibi of being on the bridge to watch fish. This is where he began to hide in plain sight.

It was a shrewd and strategic move by RA.
Hallmark of a skilled manipulator.

jmo

Nope imo it would be pretty dumb if you did it to put yourself on the bridge as that would make you a very likely suspect.

he had the weapons and was seen bloody and muddy after the crime.. no one else was spotted.. why the need to insert a phantom killer

the defense will argue against the muddy bloody sighting imo as he wasn’t seen on the camera traveling on the road they could argue that witness is lying or misremembered things

 

[phantomstrider]

Great point. Muddy and bloody will leave footprints. Perhaps the same boots/shoes were kept along with the same jacket.

Allegedly seen muddy and bloody no way to prove that though as only one witness allegedly saw him muddy and bloody

 

[Boxer]

RA said the guy scribbled some notes and didn't think it was being recorded IIRC.

It’s his lie that he did not see A and L.

RA was on the first platform when the witness had seen him, she turned around and walked to Freedom Bridge passing A and L on their way from the Mears lot to the bridge.

RA said he walked from the first platform back down the trail and sat on a bench.

He did not know he was seen, so he said he did not see them.

The trail is an old RR track and very straight, with a gentle curve, so from the bridge one a see a long way down the trail.

Does anyone know if he talked to the CO on 2/13 or 2/14?

The still picture of BG was released 2/17/17 around 5pm.
Don’t think it would be after that.

MOO, anything after 2/14 would be suspiciously long time to wait to call in.
MOO Imagine RA wore his flattest shoes and stopped a but so the impression he made was of a very small man.

 

[EllaMinnowP]

he had the weapons and was seen bloody and muddy after the crime.. no one else was spotted.. why the need to insert a phantom killer

OP isn’t making up a phantom killer out of thin air, though.
State of Indiana prosecutor McLeland has stated in court that likely others were involved.

Special judge to review Delphi case, makes no decision on whether to unseal docs

Will the documents in the Delphi murder investigation remain sealed? It's still unclear after Tuesday's hearing what the special judge will decide to do.

www.wrtv.com

From the article:
“We have good reason to believe that Allen was not alone. That there could be other actors," McLeland told the judge.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Allegedly seen muddy and bloody no way to prove that though as only one witness allegedly saw him muddy and bloody

The fact that only one witness saw him bloody and muddy does not mean it’s unprovable in a court of law. Certainly the witness’ credibility will be questioned by the defense, but witnesses are put on the stand every day to testify to things that they and they alone saw. The jury decides the weight of their testimony.

 

[JosieMae]

Allegedly seen muddy and bloody no way to prove that though as only one witness allegedly saw him muddy and bloody

I'm referring to potential crime scene footprints, not an eyewitness allegation.

 

[Chelly]

I'm referring to potential crime scene footprints, not an eyewitness allegation.

If he left footprints at the scene, I think LE should have impressions.

 

[FrostedGlass]

If others were involved in the scenario you put forth, RA is as guilty as they are of murder. Without his leading the girls to the killer they would be alive. He could have instead warned the girls to leave or notified police, but he chose not to do that. He was a cog in this murder wheel. The girls are dead because of him whether he killed them himself or assisted.
In that scenario I would have to say then RA is an idiot. If he forced the girls down the hill to others who killed them, I would think as soon as police arrested him he would have been screaming those killers names from the rooftops.

Since I'm not in Carroll Co., I don't have access to their court files and prosecution asked for a gag order, so I have little idea of what's going on with this case. If pros. only needs to prove that he ordered them down the hill, it wouldn't matter whether he named others or not, would it?

I have followed 60 +/- murder cases and I went through them to see how they were charged. The cases ranged from one to multiple persons charged, and old cases to newer ones. All but a couple were charged with 35-42-1-1(1): Murder.

The Willie Smith case out of Carroll County has 3 defendants and they were all charged with 35-42-1-1(2) Murder. In a case out of Elkhart Co, a woman set a house on fire and 2 persons perished in it. She had two 35-42-1-1(2) Murder charges. In the Trey Sanders murder case, one of the accused was charged 35-42-1-1(1) Murder and the other was charged 35-42-1-1(2). In the Hernandez case, Taylor (the only person involved) is charged with two counts = one of (1) and one of (2).

With all that said, it seems IMO to be unusual to charge a person with murder (2).

 

[Gemmie]

I have tried unsuccessfully to find Indiana law on how long a murder suspect can be jailed without a Proof Evident hearing, which would precede a bail hearing.
If anyone knows the law on that or can find it, I’d appreciate the share.
From the perspective of an American citizen, it seems like those hearings should happen reasonably soon after arrest, IMO.
To me, well over 90 days is too long, IMO.

I’m inclined to think Judge Gull must’ve already seen/ determined that presumption is great for bail to be pushed to February. I’m not too keen on secret decisions by a lone judge, but I accept our justice system does rely on us trusting our elected officials to do right by what’s expected of them. MOO

I'll admit right off the bat that I don't know what a Proof Evident hearing is, but don't feel too stupid because apparently Google doesn't either. lol However, I found something that MIGHT answer your Q. Since you know what a PE hearing is you'll know if this is helpful or not. Hopefully it is.

Rule 4. Discharge for delay in criminal trials

(A) Defendant in Jail. No defendant shall be detained in jail on a charge, without a trial, for a period in aggregate embracing more than six (6) months from the date the criminal charge against such defendant is filed, or from the date of his arrest on such charge (whichever is later); except where a continuance was had on his motion, or the delay was caused by his act, or where there was not sufficient time to try him during such period because of congestion of the court calendar; provided, however, that in the last-mentioned circumstance, the prosecuting attorney shall make such statement in a motion for continuance not later than ten (10) days prior to the date set for trial, or if such motion is filed less than ten (10) days prior to trial, the prosecuting attorney shall show additionally that the delay in filing the motion was not the fault of the prosecutor. Provided further, that a trial court may take note of congestion or an emergency without the necessity of a motion, and upon so finding may order a continuance. Any continuance granted due to a congested calendar or emergency shall be reduced to an order, which order shall also set the case for trial within a reasonable time. Any defendant so detained shall be released on his own recognizance at the conclusion of the six-month period aforesaid and may be held to answer a criminal charge against him within the limitations provided for in subsection (C) of this rule.

Indiana Rules of Criminal Procedure

 

[FrostedGlass]

I came across this easy-to-understand article about felony murder.

How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

The statute defining murder is very simple in Indiana. In order to convict someone of murder, the State must prove that: The Defendant; Knowingly; Killed; Another person. Can You Be Charged With Murder if You Never Killed Someone? This is by far the most common method in which individuals are...

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