Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #162

[MistyWaters]

A gag order and a total blackout makes me uneasy. I'm glad the media watchdogs are doing their job.

Once a judge seals the documents, they can remain that way for a long, long time. That puts major stumbling blocks in wrongfully-accused appeals.

How’s that have anything to do with a wrongful conviction appeal? RA hasn’t been convicted yet as no trial has occurred.

Maybe the function of the gag order is to prevent people from attempting to insert themselves into this case by keeping the evidence uncontaminated so to speak. (Oh yes now I remember…I saw….)

 

[FrostedGlass]

How’s that have anything to do with a wrongful conviction appeal? RA hasn’t been convicted yet as no trial has occurred.

Maybe the function of the gag order is to prevent people from attempting to insert themselves into this case by keeping the evidence uncontaminated so to speak. (Oh yes now I remember…I saw….)

I think he'll be convicted whether he's guilty or not (unless he has a rock-solid alibi). So I'm just thinking ahead. I was really hoping that something would surface that makes me rest assured that this is a strong case, with good evidence; but between the gag order and now black-out, ?

 

[Justice101]

I think he'll be convicted whether he's guilty or not (unless he has a rock-solid alibi). So I'm just thinking ahead. I was really hoping that something would surface that makes me rest assured that this is a strong case, with good evidence; but between the gag order and now black-out, ?

They ALMOST have enough to convict him just with the circumstantial evidence. I mean the dude placed himself there at/around the time of the abduction and in the clothes described and seen on video.

I would suspect there is other evidence from the search warrant at the house and of the car.

I am 90% sure they have PLENTY to convict with a reasonably intelligent jury.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think he'll be convicted whether he's guilty or not (unless he has a rock-solid alibi). So I'm just thinking ahead. I was really hoping that something would surface that makes me rest assured that this is a strong case, with good evidence; but between the gag order and now black-out, ?

Given the extensive media coverage of this case, particularly SM, the gag order may actually protect the due course of justice by preventing a wrongful conviction as nobody could argue the jurors were unduly influenced by pretrial releases. Instead the jurors viewed all the evidence presented during the trial with unbiased minds.

Let‘s face it, the only reason anyone wants to know the evidence against RA is so they can decide if he should be found guilty or not, as if the jury should heed popular public opinion (much like the expectations regarding the Casey Anthony trial verdict). That’s not how a strong justice system should work. JMO

 

[TL4S]

I think he'll be convicted whether he's guilty or not (unless he has a rock-solid alibi). So I'm just thinking ahead. I was really hoping that something would surface that makes me rest assured that this is a strong case, with good evidence; but between the gag order and now black-out, ?

There are a few things I wonder about here. One of the issues in this case is that not only were the victims minors, but so were some of the witnesses, so an added level of privacy is perhaps needed. JMO.

Another issue is the catfishing crime L was likely involved in. Even if it ends up being completely unrelated to the murders, McL has already stated that the Ks are part of the murder investigation, therefore will likely be part of the discovery materials. That information might be part of a separate investigation, then, as well, which would be compromised if the information was made public. JMO.

There's also the issue of other people possibly being involved, who may or may not still be out there. If that is the case, it's yet another reason not to share too much sensitive information with the public. JMO.

I completely respect people's concerns about too much secrecy and the threat to the innocent who are accused. But I have concern in this particular case for the safety and privacy of all the young people involved, and I feel like the prosecution is trying to protect them and other ongoing investigations. I might be idealistic in that thought, though...

 

[MistyWaters]

They ALMOST have enough to convict him just with the circumstantial evidence. I mean the dude placed himself there at/around the time of the abduction and in the clothes described and seen on video.

I would suspect there is other evidence from the search warrant at the house and of the car.

I am 90% sure they have PLENTY to convict with a reasonably intelligent jury.

People like you view this case objectively and I agree, the information contained in the arrest warrant was compelling and I also believe that won’t be the entire State’s case.

But where the division in opinion arises, I think others are looking at it emotionally and just haven’t found enough reason to hate RA. In comparison to DN, JBC or KAK, there’d have been a great deal of hand clapping if an arrest had been announced. Any one of those men seemed to fit the persona of a repugnant murderer, despised because their character was judged on an emotional level. RA just looks like a pathetic little gnome as he’s traipsed back and forth to court each time but other than appearance, the general public doesn’t know enough about him for people to hate and that’s the standpoint IMO where a great deal of doubt is coming from. JMO

 

[Jade]

I think he'll be convicted whether he's guilty or not (unless he has a rock-solid alibi). So I'm just thinking ahead. I was really hoping that something would surface that makes me rest assured that this is a strong case, with good evidence; but between the gag order and now black-out, ?

I believe if there were a rock solid alibi Richard Allen’s attorneys would be saying so instead of trying to get tips from the general public.

They were hoping to crowd source some support for RA by pushing to release the affidavit.

It seems they want to introduce reasonable doubt more than pointing a finger elsewhere by conducting an “investigation concerning Rick’s innocence”.

Not that someone else did it but that he is innocent.

They don’t want to talk about BG, imo.


>>
Allen's lawyers said they pushed to have the affidavit unsealed.

"We were hoping that we would receive tips that would assist us in proving up his innocence," the statement said. "Although it is the burden of the prosecutor to prove Rick's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the defense team looks forward to conducting its own investigation concerning Rick's innocence."
>>
Delphi murders: Suspect Richard Allen's attorneys say he 'has nothing to hide'

BBM



So from statements like that and this one I don't believe his attorneys have found much to promote his innocence beyond raising doubt.


“He is innocent and completely confused as to why he has been charged with these crimes,” the attorneys wrote.

‘He is innocent’ | Delphi suspect attorneys release statement on client’s involvement in murder investigation

Confused?

Why not leave it at “He’s innocent” instead of a sentence that’s ending appears to be “because he thought he got away with it”.

All imo

 

[Jade]

Sorry to double post but in my reading I found this that I’m sure you all knew but I missed, bbm:



The attorney’s wrote that it was Allen who notified police about his presence on the trails near the Monon High Bridge the day Libby and Abby went missing, that he tried to help the investigation on more than one occasion, including a conversation with a conservation officer about seeing three girls on the trail.



‘He is innocent’ | Delphi suspect attorneys release statement on client’s involvement in murder investigation

 

[Emma Peel]

For me, recent case disclosure negates 6 years of red-herrings.

We've had public LE disclosure of:

a) additional video footage of gun-toting abductor from victim's phone where suspect in video pulls a gun and directs victims down the hill towards the murder site.

b) disclosure re: RA's clothing matching gun-toting abductor.

c) cat-hair at crime scene and in RA's backyard DNA is a match.

d) the video'd gun and the bullet at crime scene is an RA match.

e) LE has always stated that the suspect is the man in the video.

We know: Forensics are completed - on the video, the gun, bullet, the suspect, suspect's clothing, victim's clothing, victim's remains, cat hair.

We know: the many years that have lapsed may benefit suspect; eye-witnesses memories will be challenged.

We don't know: the presence of suspect's DNA at crime scene. Or not.

We can assume: Digital forensics - RA's activity on-line, computer memory, phone records - are relevant to the extent they exist. (6 years have elapsed; what's the likelihood digital records from time of crime were recovered?)

Investigation process & forensic results/proofs will be presented at trial.

Investigators will have followed a process, chains of custody, experts, labs, that withstand defense procedural/method attacks (or not).

Investigators' forensics will prove (without a doubt) - that RA is the suspect on the video ... or not.

RA will have a strong defense creating doubt against forensics (and a through d above) ... or he won't.

Jury decides.

Speaking for myself, given the above ... any other theories are a waste of time. Case has been simplified.

The 6 years of red herrings swimming around - now irrelevant.

The 6 years that certain evidentiary items were NOT in LE's possession - a prosecution negative
(in RA's favor). (e.g. RA's clothing, digital records.)

Video/audio analysis matching RA (or not) is critical - the suspect is captured on the victim's video with the gun and the verbal orders to the girls. That along with crime scene bullet and potential DNA matching - is the whole ball game, IMO.

I think cat DNA is interesting. Is it what the case will turn on? I have doubts. But, amusing myself thinking of a cat behavior expert witness on the stand.

(LE suggests there are others linked via a catfish ring - they could become witnesses against RA, but ... if such witnesses are charged as well, having cut cut deals for testimony ... their testimony would add color, add motive - just gravy. The video, gun/bullet, and DNA forensics remains the critical evidence here.)

 

[M. Kay]

I think he'll be convicted whether he's guilty or not (unless he has a rock-solid alibi). So I'm just thinking ahead. I was really hoping that something would surface that makes me rest assured that this is a strong case, with good evidence; but between the gag order and now black-out, ?

Your name is someone I often agree with; so I also hope
hope we have reassuring detail surface beforehand. Yet wouldn't best prosecution include strong evidence introduced fresh to jury with judge presiding? I do not agree that he'll be convicted whether guilty "or not."
*This is bringing to mind DC's comment that with all they have, all they need(ed) is "the name of the killer". Didn't this mean first they had evidence, then RA "matched it"?

 

[Justice101]

Your name is someone I often agree with; so I also hope
hope we have reassuring detail surface beforehand. Yet wouldn't best prosecution include strong evidence introduced fresh to jury with judge presiding? I do not agree that he'll be convicted whether guilty "or not."
*This is bringing to mind DC's comment that with all they have, all they need(ed) is "the name of the killer". Didn't this mean first they had evidence, then RA "matched it"?

Yes, I agree! All they needed was a name to connect the (hopefully) DNA, etc. to all the evidence they had.

Fingers crossed it is him and they have plenty of evidence.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Your name is someone I often agree with; so I also hope
hope we have reassuring detail surface beforehand. Yet wouldn't best prosecution include strong evidence introduced fresh to jury with judge presiding? I do not agree that he'll be convicted whether guilty "or not."
*This is bringing to mind DC's comment that with all they have, all they need(ed) is "the name of the killer". Didn't this mean first they had evidence, then RA "matched it"?

Thanks. It's nice when we agree with each other but it's ok when we don't.

I think there are a good number of people right here who would vote to convict RA based on what little we actually know. I think they are fairly representative of the jury and I think the jury will likely form opinions early. They will be under great pressure to find him guilty; it's a heinous crime and Carroll Co has put a lot of time, effort and money into bringing someone to trial.

If you were on the jury and the prosecutor said in closing: "I know this isn't a perfect case and it's based mostly on circumstantial evidence, but we strongly believe this man horribly murdered 2 innocent young girls. We've worked hard for 6 years to bring the killer to you; now have the courage to find him guilty of murder."
If you had doubt, would you be the holdout?

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks. It's nice when we agree with each other but it's ok when we don't.

I think there are a good number of people right here who would vote to convict RA based on what little we actually know. I think they are fairly representative of the jury and I think the jury will likely form opinions early. They will be under great pressure to find him guilty; it's a heinous crime and Carroll Co has put a lot of time, effort and money into bringing someone to trial.

If you were on the jury and the prosecutor said in closing: "I know this isn't a perfect case and it's based mostly on circumstantial evidence, but we strongly believe this man horribly murdered 2 innocent young girls. We've worked hard for 6 years to bring the killer to you; now have the courage to find him guilty of murder."
If you had doubt, would you be the holdout?

I thought this was an informative article. It distinguishes between the various legal burdens of proof. I think we all agree the PCA contained a “a reasonable amount of suspicion” but if a jury is doing a proper job of it, the bar to determine a guilty conviction beyond reasonable doubt is set far higher than mere suspicion. According to juror’s instructions, doubt is to be based on the weight of evidence only. But as for now we don’t know what evidence will be presented.

Legal Burdens of Proof in Indiana | Indianapolis Attorneys

Don't let your questions bother you any longer.This blog takes a quick look at Indiana's different legal burdens of proof.

banksbrower.com

……probable cause, and this is the standard that must be met in order for police officers to make arrests or to be issued warrants (and, in some cases, to make a search). Probable cause has been defined in Ballentine’s Law Dictionary as “a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person’s belief that certain facts are probably true.” In relation to warrants, the Oxford Companion to American Law defines probable cause as “information sufficient to warrant a prudent person’s belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search.” Probable cause is the standard for filing criminal charges, but the fact that charges were filed does not mean that the State can meet the beyond a reasonable doubt standard….

…….Sitting atop the foregoing standards is beyond a reasonable doubt, and this standard is required to be met by the State in criminal trials throughout the United States. Again, this is the highest and most strict burden applied in our courts. And rightfully so, as liberty (and sometimes life) are at stake in a criminal trial. Beyond a reasonable doubt cannot easily be defined a percentage or numeric value, but most people understand that overcoming any reasonable doubt requires much from the State and its evidence. In some cases, it may not take a jury long to agree that someone was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but not all cases are so simple. After all, the evidence must firmly convince each juror and leave no doubt of the accused’s guilt. Only if this burden is met may the jury return a verdict of guilty….”

 

[Boxer]

Interesting - i hadn't followed the collapse in solve rates

I guess US also includes a hell of a lot of 'professional' murders compared to other countries (drugs etc)?

I wouldn't expect those crimes to be resourced compared to high profile cases like this one.

Has the solve rate ever been higher than 50%?

 

[mrjitty]

Has the solve rate ever been higher than 50%?

Apparently it was much higher in the UK

Not sure about the US

 

[JudgeJudi]

Has the solve rate ever been higher than 50%?

Yes, but historical rates weren't based on the same information that's available today.


As Murders Spiked, Police Solved About Half in 2020

Indianapolis
IMPD 2022 homicide clearance rate at 35%
IMPD 2022 homicide clearance rate at 35%

More in article which was updated on 31 January, 2023.

 

[Bergmann]

We've had public LE disclosure of:

a) additional video footage of gun-toting abductor from victim's phone where suspect in video pulls a gun and directs victims down the hill towards the murder site.

b) disclosure re: RA's clothing matching gun-toting abductor.

c) cat-hair at crime scene and in RA's backyard DNA is a match.

d) the video'd gun and the bullet at crime scene is an RA match.

Apologies if I've misunderstood but when you state 'we have had public disclosure of...' and then list matches definitively I may have missed these?

b. RA's clothing matching gun toting abductor (BG I assume) - how and when was this confirmed as a match?

c. cat hair at crime scene - again how and when was this confirmed as a match?

Or are you assuming that in court that these will be confirmed at the trial?

 

[Justice101]

People like you view this case objectively and I agree, the information contained in the arrest warrant was compelling and I also believe that won’t be the entire State’s case.

But where the division in opinion arises, I think others are looking at it emotionally and just haven’t found enough reason to hate RA. In comparison to DN, JBC or KAK, there’d have been a great deal of hand clapping if an arrest had been announced. Any one of those men seemed to fit the persona of a repugnant murderer, despised because their character was judged on an emotional level. RA just looks like a pathetic little gnome as he’s traipsed back and forth to court each time but other than appearance, the general public doesn’t know enough about him for people to hate and that’s the standpoint IMO where a great deal of doubt is coming from. JMO

Very astute observation!

The other thing is that human beings, in the absence of information, tend to think of the negative and worst case.

If you teenage is an hour late coming in on a Saturday night and hasn't called and you can't get in touch with them, you immediately think they are laying in a ditch beside the road bleeding to death.

The same thing happens when we see an arrest but don't have ALL the information that LE has. We think that the case is weak and there is a danger of the criminal getting off.

Just like with your teen being an hour late, in the vast majority of the cases, it turns out fine and our minds are just over-active in the absence of information.

I think they got their guy here..and they will be more than prepared to PROVE IT in court. We're just worried because we don't know enough.

 

[M. Kay]

Thanks. It's nice when we agree with each other but it's ok when we don't.

If you were on the jury...

Yes, we can agree to disagree; and that's good for everyone.
I was once on a jury, eager to serve; though now I'd refrain if possible whenever summoned. (Well, maybe a WS jury?)

 

[Emma Peel]

Apologies if I've misunderstood but when you state 'we have had public disclosure of...' and then list matches definitively I may have missed these?

b. RA's clothing matching gun toting abductor (BG I assume) - how and when was this confirmed as a match?

c. cat hair at crime scene - again how and when was this confirmed as a match?

Or are you assuming that in court that these will be confirmed at the trial?

Good question -
Based on docs used for search warrant; I'd expect forensic results on these to be presented at trial.

Seems to me these are supportive proofs ...

A family member stated prior to the gag order that they were told by LE that they have DNA.
Hope that they weren't referring to the cat.