IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[FrostedGlass]

https://www.in.gov/idoc/files/data-and-statistics/0223-OffenderPopulation.pdf

Lots of good info here.

Thanks. 62 pages worth; I scrolled too fast and missed the stat you quoted. I'll do a more thorough search later today.

In all the murder cases I've followed, I can't recall any of the accused being housed in a prison while awaiting trial. I'm especially interested in that statistic.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe because it's a death penalty case?

But even so, you don't meet with your client every day. Once he tells his story, what else are you talking about every day?

If he was an attorney then it might make sense that he'd want to be working on his legal strategy---otherwise ?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thanks. 62 pages worth; I scrolled too fast and missed the stat you quoted. I'll do a more thorough search later today.

In all the murder cases I've followed, I can't recall any of the accused being housed in a prison while awaiting trial. I'm especially interested in that statistic.

I can think of numerous defendants being held (denied bond) for murder charges. He was in jail and was moved for safety concerns. It's a damned if they do and damned if they don't....if they leave him in jail and something happens to him physically it's LE fault. If they move him to a prison and seg pop, they are denying his rights to have the same freedom of other inmates.

You can't have it both ways, either keep him in jail where you can normally keep a closer eye on him, or put him in a prison facility separated from gen pop for his safety. This is not a targeted attack on RA by LE IMO.

As far as losing weight, I truly believe he is trying to change his appearance before court, he doesn't want to resemble BG. The prison is legally required to feed them a certain amount each day. If he choses not to eat, that's on RA.

MOO

ETA: I couldn't find a link so I removed statement

 

[FrostedGlass]

But even so, you don't meet with your client every day. Once he tells his story, what else are you talking about every day?

If he was an attorney then it might make sense that he'd want to be working on his legal strategy---otherwise ?

His atty stated he delivered almost 1,000 pgs of police reports to RA that had not been handed over to him. Surely an attorney would want his clients input on some of that information.

It sounds like it's a huge case; prosecution has had a ton of that info for years. Is it normal to not seek a client's input?

 

[katydid23]

His atty stated he delivered almost 1,000 pgs of police reports to RA that had not been handed over to him. Surely an attorney would want his clients input on some of that information.

It sounds like it's a huge case; prosecution has had a ton of that info for years. Is it normal to not seek a client's input?

But is an attorney going to sit with him while RA looks thru and reads them? At 200 per hour that is a big waste of resources, imo. I'd think RA would look thru them and make his own notes or talk on the phone about them.

Seeking a clients input is normal and positive. But that is not the same thing as sitting in an in person meeting all day every day. Input can come with phone calls, emails, and weekly meetings.

 

[raja]

I would hope that they have handed over the info from RA’s attorneys to RA after the motion was filed this week.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I can think of numerous defendants being held (denied bond) for murder charges. He was in jail and was moved for safety concerns. It's a damned if they do and damned if they don't....if they leave him in jail and something happens to him physically it's LE fault. If they move him to a prison and seg pop, they are denying his rights to have the same freedom of other inmates.

You can't have it both ways, either keep him in jail where you can normally keep a closer eye on him, or put him in a prison facility separated from gen pop for his safety. This is not a targeted attack on RA by LE IMO.

As far as losing weight, I truly believe he is trying to change his appearance before court, he doesn't want to resemble BG. The prison is legally required to feed them a certain amount each day. If he choses not to eat, that's on RA.

MOO

ETA: I couldn't find a link so I removed statement

I agree with defendants being held on murder charges. I've never seen one let out on bond unless they ratted for a reduced charge.

Was it CNN that reported RA asked for the move? That doesn't appear to be the case when you read Leazenby's motion. RA didn't even have an atty at that time. Can an inmate just ask to be moved and a willing sheriff make it happen?

With all the fear the sheriff was expressing, I was totally surprised that there was apparently only 1 person being verbal to RA at his first hearing. Maybe there were large groups of people and the news didn't show them?

If I was RA's atty, I'd tell him: "If you're losing weight on purpose to deceive, stop it right now! All it's doing is making people think you're guilty."

 

[FrostedGlass]

But is an attorney going to sit with him while RA looks thru and reads them? At 200 per hour that is a big waste of resources, imo. I'd think RA would look thru them and make his own notes or talk on the phone about them.

Seeking a clients input is normal and positive. But that is not the same thing as sitting in an in person meeting all day every day. Input can come with phone calls, emails, and weekly meetings.

One wouldn't expect an atty to sit while his client read 1000 reports but he probably expected for the prison officials to give the reports to RA. Privacy with phone calls, emails and probably even zoom meetings could be a concern...I think that was one issue noted in the emergency motion.

I don't know where the idea came about them sitting together all day, every day.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I should have used the term Defendant, per Websters definition:

A person or group against whom a criminal or civil action is brought : someone who is being sued or accused of committing a crime.

It's the defense's obligation to arrange and conduct meetings regardless of where he is housed. I'm not sure what hardships are on the defendant currently?

As of Feb 2023, there are 14 awaiting 1st degree murder charges in IN.

MOO

The post I responded to stated a concern that many/all inmates could also request a move. My point is that most likely, no other person is in the unique circumstances of RA and that the long-term goal is to get through a possible trial without creating more reasons for an appeal. Keeping him in solitary confinement, which is often punitive treatment for convicted inmates, is not sustainable. They have no choice at the prison, he can't be mixed with the actual inmates.
Is there a valid reason he must stay where he is? What would be the objection to him being housed/treated like 99% of defendants awaiting trial?

Since being a defendant does not mean in-custody, I don't know how many of the 14 you say are awaiting trial are in-custody. In 2021, according to the linked article, 40% of murder defendants were out, on pretrial release. Some of those 14 defendants you mention, are not in jail. The ones in jail, not a prison, most likely have a local attorney/public defender assigned to that court/area.

RA is an outlier, he is being held in a prison which is a 3 hour roundtrip for his attorneys. Other in-custodies are being held in the jail in the jurisdiction where they are being prosecuted. So the actual number of defendants awaiting trial, while in a prison far away from their attorneys, is probably zero. As for accessibility, RA's attorneys have limited access to their client if they apply all of the prison attorney/visitation restrictions. From Westville's website:

"Requests for general in-person legal visits between attorneys and Incarcerated Individuals must be made to the facility where the Incarcerated Individuals is housed. Attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit requests are being scheduled and will continue as long as it is safe to do so on a facility-by-facility basis. Based on the conditions of each facility, they are subject to being postponed or rescheduled. A reliable alternative to an in-person attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit is to schedule a confidential phone call. Incarcerated Individuals must have the attorney's phone number added to their approved telephone list. All calls are to be 'collect calls' unless the Incarcerated Individuals utilizes prepaid minutes."

Standard Disclaimer: No sympathy for RA was expressed. His crimes were not minimized. I believe he will be found guilty or will plead guilty.

Westville Correctional Facility

www.in.gov

40% of Indy murder suspects in 2021 were on pretrial release, sentencing at time of crime

INDIANAPOLIS — A FOX59 investigation found that more than 40% of those accused of killing people in Indy this year were on pretrial release or serving post-conviction sentences. For victims, a quar…

fox59.com

 

[Niner]

So @FrostedGlass - any "emergency" hearings set yet?
and
Happy Easter!

 

[FrostedGlass]

So @FrostedGlass - any "emergency" hearings set yet?
and
Happy Easter!

No, nothing yet. Happy Easter to you, too. Cute bunny.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@NoSpoonFeeding I think the opening paragraph in the article you posted is slightly misleading. I find that almost all people who are arrested and charged with murder do not get out on bond. OTOH, murder sometimes happens while they are either out on probation or pre-trial release for another crime.

I think it would be shocking to know how many are serving various stages of time for murder in Indiana. I have family members who actually think Hendricks County only has a boy's reform school.

40% of Indy murder suspects in 2021 were on pretrial release, sentencing at time of crime

INDIANAPOLIS — A FOX59 investigation found that more than 40% of those accused of killing people in Indy this year were on pretrial release or serving post-conviction sentences. For victims, a quar…

fox59.com

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

@NoSpoonFeeding I think the opening paragraph in the article you posted is slightly misleading. I find that almost all people who are arrested and charged with murder do not get out on bond. OTOH, murder sometimes happens while they are either out on probation or pre-trial release for another crime.

I think it would be shocking to know how many are serving various stages of time for murder in Indiana. I have family members who actually think Hendricks County only has a boy's reform school.

40% of Indy murder suspects in 2021 were on pretrial release, sentencing at time of crime

INDIANAPOLIS — A FOX59 investigation found that more than 40% of those accused of killing people in Indy this year were on pretrial release or serving post-conviction sentences. For victims, a quar…

fox59.com

It was just a link to show it does happen and that may well be, but it doesn't take away from my point that a status of awaiting trial, even for murder, does not guarantee that a defendant is in-custody, and more importantly, is not in a prison.

 

[gremlin444]

Or this could have been leaked by the Defense despite the gag in order to obtain public sympathy for the accused.

No, it wasn't. This document was made public on the official and appropriate govt/judicial/law enforcement portal. Many people who had been watching the case saw it and downloaded it. And then several hours later, without warning, it was no longer able to be seen on the portal.

 

[FrostedGlass]

hoosierpublicdefender got my attention when he said a decision like this (RA move) shouldn't be made for convenience.

Shay Hughes on Instagram: "This wk, Allen filed a motion to modify his placement. Allen is currently housed at the Westville Correctional Facility, a DOC facility that doesn’t have a great reputation. Allen’s counsel makes some compelling points, the

17 likes, 4 comments - hoosierpublicdefender on April 6, 2023: "This wk, Allen filed a motion to modify his placement. Allen is currently housed at the Westville Correctional Facility, a DOC facility that doesn’t have a great reputation. Allen’s counsel makes some compelling points, the most...

www.instagram.com

Then I remembered seeing this article about the new jail and read down the page to this quote below and his convenience remark made more sense. Now I'm curious about the other two who are out of county. I hope they aren't also up in Westville.

Sheriff’s Department
Sheriff Tony Liggett said he has made two conditional job offers for deputies last week. He said that will bring his department to full staff. He also said the number of prisoners in the jail is 33 (34 prisoners is the maximum allowed by the state) and another three prisoners are placed out-of-county.

New jail is one step closer to a reality - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Commissioners Bill Brown, Loren Hylton and Steve Pearson signed a formal, notarized resolution to lease the newly constructed jail as well as the current facility from the Carroll County Building Corporation at the Monday, March 6, meeting. Attorney Ted Johnson advised the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

hoosierpublicdefender got my attention when he said a decision like this (RA move) shouldn't be made for convenience.

Shay Hughes on Instagram: "This wk, Allen filed a motion to modify his placement. Allen is currently housed at the Westville Correctional Facility, a DOC facility that doesn’t have a great reputation. Allen’s counsel makes some compelling points, the

17 likes, 4 comments - hoosierpublicdefender on April 6, 2023: "This wk, Allen filed a motion to modify his placement. Allen is currently housed at the Westville Correctional Facility, a DOC facility that doesn’t have a great reputation. Allen’s counsel makes some compelling points, the most...

www.instagram.com

Then I remembered seeing this article about the new jail and read down the page to this quote below and his convenience remark made more sense. Now I'm curious about the other two who are out of county. I hope they aren't also up in Westville.

New jail is one step closer to a reality - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Commissioners Bill Brown, Loren Hylton and Steve Pearson signed a formal, notarized resolution to lease the newly constructed jail as well as the current facility from the Carroll County Building Corporation at the Monday, March 6, meeting. Attorney Ted Johnson advised the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

MOO I believe that means that since they are over maximum capacity, they have to put 3 of their prisoners in another facility outside of their own county.
Which means they are paying for the other facility to house their prisoners. This is not uncommon for jails to do. A city jail frequently "leases" jail space at a county jail to house overflow. If you have someone sentenced for a year in a county jail, they are sometimes sent to another location so that the flex space is available for short term stays. They can't send someone sentenced to serve time in a county jail, to prison.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I don't know, in legal terms, what a gag order means. I did think that the judge ordered one in this case.

IMO, FWIW, this document, the photo of RA a
and the article were planned and executed by the defense attorneys.

RA claimed to have been scared and abused in his previous jail home. So..he was moved. Does that mean that he should somehow have privileges and special treatment that others housed in the same institution are not privy to?

I am sure this place isn't exactly the Hilton, but should it be? RA is in jail accused of serious and heinous crimes. He has consistently cried about his terrible treatment. It started with him telling the judge that he didn't want a court appointed attorney, then being upset because he realized he no longer had a job and could not afford to hire one himself.

From the time we learned his name, his attorneys have been playing on the public's sympathy. And, they continue to get away with it.

JMO
EBM

 

[FrostedGlass]

MOO I believe that means that since they are over maximum capacity, they have to put 3 of their prisoners in another facility outside of their own county.
Which means they are paying for the other facility to house their prisoners. This is not uncommon for jails to do. A city jail frequently "leases" jail space at a county jail to house overflow. If you have someone sentenced for a year in a county jail, they are sometimes sent to another location so that the flex space is available for short term stays. They can't send someone sentenced to serve time in a county jail, to prison.

Yes, and RA is one of those three? What do you suppose HPD's remark about convenience was in reference to?

 

[steeltowngirl]

I agree with defendants being held on murder charges. I've never seen one let out on bond unless they ratted for a reduced charge.

Was it CNN that reported RA asked for the move? That doesn't appear to be the case when you read Leazenby's motion. RA didn't even have an atty at that time. Can an inmate just ask to be moved and a willing sheriff make it happen?

With all the fear the sheriff was expressing, I was totally surprised that there was apparently only 1 person being verbal to RA at his first hearing. Maybe there were large groups of people and the news didn't show them?

If I was RA's atty, I'd tell him: "If you're losing weight on purpose to deceive, stop it right now! All it's doing is making people think you're guilty."

DELPHI, Ind. (CBS) -- Richard Allen, the man charged with the murder of two young teenage girls in Delphi, Indiana more than five years ago, will be moved to state prison for his own safety.

Court records showed Thursday that Allen asked to be transferred from the custody of the Carroll County, Indiana Sheriff's office to the custody of the Indiana Department of Corrections for safe keeping. The request was granted by Judge Benjamin Diener, court records show.

Richard Allen, man charged in girls' murder in Delphi, Indiana, to be moved to state prison for own safety

Allen, 50, of Delphi was charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[gremlin444]

I don't know, in legal terms, what a gag order means. I did think that the judge ordered one in this case.

IMO, FWIW, this document, the photo of RA a
and the article were planned and executed by the defense attorneys.

This document SHOULD NOT have been available via the publicly accessible govt/law enforcement/court portal. Most people were surprised to see it there, downloaded it, and in less than 24 hours it was gone from the portal.

The Murder Sheet podcast was notified while they were eating lunch by other lawyers that the document was on the portal. They downloaded it, read it, and started recording an episode ("The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen in Prison") shortly thereafter. After 48 min of recording, one of the podcasters (Kevin G, a lawyer) interjected to say:

"Earlier, before we started reporting, we got word from a reporter who said that he had been told the document in question, these motions, were locked and unavailable to the public. And as we've been recording, I've been sitting here periodically refreshing the mycase page to see if there were any subsequent filings related to this. And as I look at the mycase page now, the option to download this motion has been removed."

By Thursday morning, according to local Indiana reporting, these documents were no longer available:

"The motion and its exhibit were sealed Thursday morning from public inspection. There is no judge's order in the online docket to seal the motion, and the motion does not request that the filing be sealed. "

Richard Allen's attorneys say his jail conditions are 'akin to that of prisoner of war'

Richard Allen's attorneys requested he be moved from Westville prison, where he currently is incarcerated for his safety, to the Cass County Jail.

www.jconline.com

If you recall, this is not the first time there has been a oopsie like this in this case. In March of 2022, Kegan Kline's interview transcripts where he admitted to having been in contact with Abby Williams were accidentally made public in much the same way before the mistake was discovered and they were taken down.