IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[MistyWaters]

Thank goodness the court of law does not work in similar binaries.

He placed himself adjacent to the scene wearing similar clothing. This is especially damning because at that point he didn't know video of the suspect existed. If I am a juror I'm connecting those dots.

How much weight does his statements to police carry if the bullet is thrown out? Not nearly as much. That part is true.

We don’t know when RA spoke to the conservation officer but IMO it’s even more damning if that interview took place prior to the discovery of the girls bodies. RA put himself very near the scene but at the same time claimed not to have seen the girls. On the surface that suggests the girls had either left or had never been in the bridge area, thus no point in searching for them anywhere near the bridge. But for Libby’s video….

If not for that video there’s a chance the search area would’ve been far broader and it would’ve taken far longer to find them. Not knowing much about discovery site but if there was opportunity I do wonder if his intention wasn’t to buy additional time to go back another day and do something to make it even more difficult to find them….ie if they were in a ravine to cover them up with debris or even bury them?

That’s the only motivation to his initial declaration that I can think of. It wasn’t as much to place himself there, it was to NOT place the girls there. Later he couldn’t take his words back. JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Richard Allen's defense attorney's file motion to throw out ballistics evidence​

DELPHI — Just ahead of Thursday's hearing, defense attorney's representing Richard Allen have filed a motion to throw out evidence relating to bullets.

<snipped>

Upon their review of the probable cause affidavit, Allen's attorneys referred to the evidence of the bullet as "flimsy". Shortly after their statement, a gag order was put in place by Judge Fran Gull.

Richard Allen's defense attorney's file motion to throw out ballistics evidence

Edited By Me - should have known you sleuths would have already been on this

 

[Justice101]

We don’t know when RA spoke to the conservation officer but IMO it’s even more damning if that interview took place prior to the discovery of the girls bodies. RA put himself very near the scene but at the same time claimed not to have seen the girls. On the surface that suggests the girls had either left or had never been in the bridge area, thus no point in searching for them anywhere near the bridge. But for Libby’s video….

If not for that video there’s a chance the search area would’ve been far broader and it would’ve taken far longer to find them. Not knowing much about discovery site but if there was opportunity I do wonder if his intention wasn’t to buy additional time to go back another day and do something to make it even more difficult to find them….ie if they were in a ravine to cover them up with debris or even bury them?

That’s the only motivation to his initial declaration that I can think of. It wasn’t as much to place himself there, it was to NOT place the girls there. Later he couldn’t take his words back. JMO

I think it is clear that the video was not seen until the bodies were discovered and her phone was found. Therefore, he talked to the CO well after the event but probably not before the image/video was known to exist.

He self-reported because his image was known to be out there OR BEFORE he knew it was out there.

Bottom line, he self-incriminated himself to be on the trail near the bridge around the time of the killings.

He was his own witness.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I've been thinking about the witnesses who claimed to have seen a man resembling RA. None of them mentioned seeing an outline of a gun in his jacket? We saw it in the grainy pics of BG.

I think they should unseal the search warrant.

I don't think the young girls were paying much attention to the dad bod, the other witness may not have been close enough to see his outline. That Sig isn't an overly large weapon.

ALL MOO

 

[dm799]

The video of BG on Bridge was released late on 2/17, (three days after finding the bodies.) MOO the walking witness would have been interviewed before this.

RSBM. Just in the in interests of accuracy, there were still frames from the video released shortly after the crime, however LE would sit on the video for over two years before releasing it.

Just one of many baffling LE actions which have severely hampered this case.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think it is clear that the video was not seen until the bodies were discovered and her phone was found. Therefore, he talked to the CO well after the event but probably not before the image/video was known to exist.

He self-reported because his image was known to be out there OR BEFORE he knew it was out there.

Bottom line, he self-incriminated himself to be on the trail near the bridge around the time of the killings.

He was his own witness.

Why would he self-report if he knew his mage was out there at the same time saying he hadn’t seen the girls, given the image was from the cellphone belonging to Libby disproves that? This is why I don’t think he knew at the time he spoke to the conservation officer that he’d been captured on video. He must’ve not thought it could be proven he was where he should’ve seen them, otherwise why say he didn’t? JMO

 

[legalmomma]

Here are the key issues that could be decided Thursday when Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen returns to court

Richard Allen was arrested last October and charged with the 2017 murders of teenagers Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wthr.com

Setting a trial date​

13News has learned a trial date will likely be set for sometime within the next six months, and Richard Allen’s trial could start as early as mid-fall.
This portion of the hearing is expected to last only a few minutes.

Motion to suppress ballistics evidence​

Allen’s attorneys have raised questions about the science used to link the gun to the bullet at the crime scene. Thursday, the defense and the prosecutor will be able to present evidence about the reliability of the ballistics testing so the judge can rule whether that evidence will be admissible.
Any decision from Judge Frances Gull will be preliminary and regardless of her ruling, the admissibility of ballistics evidence can be (and probably will be) revisited before or during trial.
This portion of the hearing is the most complex and is expected to last several hours.

Whether Richard Allen should remain in a state prison while awaiting his trial​

...Depending on the amount of discussion and testimony, this aspect of the hearing could take an hour or longer.

Approval of defense expert witnesses​

The judge has to approve the defendant’s expert witnesses because Allen’s attorneys and any experts they hire are being paid for with public tax dollars. The cost of the defense could total hundreds of thousands of dollars.
...
The hearing at the Carroll County Courthouse is scheduled to begin Thursday at 10 a.m. and could last all afternoon.

 

[legalmomma]

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access public.courts.in.gov 06/13/2023

Order Issued
Courthouse will open at 8:00 a.m. All entrances will be closed, except for the handicapped entrance on the north side of the building. The remaining entrances will be locked with no access to the public. All members of the public, including members of the media, are subject to screening by metal detectors. All bags in possession of those entering the building are subject to search. NO weapons of any kind are permitted in the building, except for on-duty law enforcement officers providing security to the Courthouse and the parties. Cellular telephones are permitted in the building, but must be powered OFF and unused at all times while in the building or the Courtrooms. Violations are subject to seizure and destruction of the cellular telephone. No electronic equipment or devices are permitted in the Carroll Circuit Court. Media personnel are permitted to attend the Court session. NO cameras, electronics, lap tops or recording equipment of any kind is permitted on the Second Floor and the Third Floor of the Courthouse nor inside the Circuit Courtroom. All such equipment is limited to the First Floor of the Courthouse. The Court requests the media be mindful that other County offices are conducting business in the building unrelated to this case. Media and members of the public are ordered to conduct themselves in such a fashion as to limit disruption to the offices, personnel, and patrons of those offices. The Media are free to use the public areas outside the Courthouse as long as they do not obstruct traffic in the streets and sidewalks surrounding the Courthouse. Seating in the Carroll Circuit Court is limited. The first row of public seats behind the bar separating the well of the courtroom from the public is unavailable for seating. The Sheriff of Carroll County or his designee will ensure that the victim representatives are seated. The remaining seating is available until full. No one, other than Court Security, will be permitted to stand in the Courtroom. All spectators must remain seated until the conclusion of the hearing and the parties have left the Courtroom. No food or beverages are permitted inside the Carroll Circuit Court. Water will be permitted for the parties in the well of the Courtroom. All members of the public and the media are required to follow directives of the Sheriff of Carroll County, Courthouse Security and Courtroom Security. NO court-produced recording will be made available to the public or media. The audio record made pursuant to Indiana Criminal Rule 5 may not be copied or used for purposes other than perpetuating the record. At the conclusion of the scheduled hearing on public pending Motions before the Court, the Court will conduct an ex parte hearing with the Defendant and defense counsel on the Ex Parte Motion. The State of Indiana and the public are excluded from this portion of the hearing and will be asked to leave the Courtroom. Court Security will remain and are ordered to keep that portion of the proceeding confidential. The Court anticipates that all members of the public and the media will conduct themselves in an appropriate fashion. Any violation of this Order and any conduct the Court finds disruptive of the proceedings may result in an order of temporary or permanent exclusion from the Courtroom and/or Courthouse and is punishable as contempt of Court.

 

[O.Incandenza]

Ballistics is controversial enough that I'm not yet comfortable on the role that unspent round will play at trial, if it's even allowed. However, I'm still hopeful on DNA and other such evidence. We better hope Indiana LE had their ducks in a row for the search of RA's home and vehicle, because it might hinge on what was found in addition to the gun. Jmo.

Here's the recent case discussed on MS where the judge barred expert witness testimony in regards to ballistics. Illinois vs Rickey Winfield.
Hooks Winfield Frye Ruling.pdf

Also Indiana Pirtle Rights:
Pirtle rights are specific to Indiana. Miranda requires police to warn a suspect before conducting a custodial interrogation. Pirtle requires similar legal warnings before an individual who is in custody can consent to a search. Pirtle is specific to Indiana.
What are your Pirtle Rights.

The MS podcast with Radley Balko about the history and scientific reliability of pattern matching/tool mark/ballistic evidence was pretty fascinating. I certainly wouldn't want to be a juror in the position of convicting someone based mainly on a tool mark match on an unspent shell casing, so hopefully there's other evidence tying RA to the site where the bodies were found.

The fact that many crime labs including the FBI have a policy of never excluding a gun based on tool mark/ballistic evidence was pretty mind-blowing to me. The explanation was that the tool marks caused by a gun can change dramatically over time, so a mismatch doesn't necessarily rule out a gun. But that explanation seems to undermine the idea that you can confidently match a bullet to exactly one gun. Especially in a case like this where there's years between the bullet being recovered and the gun being recovered.

 

[TL4S]

The MS podcast with Radley Balko about the history and scientific reliability of pattern matching/tool mark/ballistic evidence was pretty fascinating. I certainly wouldn't want to be a juror in the position of convicting someone based mainly on a tool mark match on an unspent shell casing, so hopefully there's other evidence tying RA to the site where the bodies were found.

The fact that many crime labs including the FBI have a policy of never excluding a gun based on tool mark/ballistic evidence was pretty mind-blowing to me. The explanation was that the tool marks caused by a gun can change dramatically over time, so a mismatch doesn't necessarily rule out a gun. But that explanation seems to undermine the idea that you can confidently match a bullet to exactly one gun. Especially in a case like this where there's years between the bullet being recovered and the gun being recovered.

That episode was really interesting to me, too. It made me hope even more for DNA!

 

[Boxer]

RSBM. Just in the in interests of accuracy, there were still frames from the video released shortly after the crime, however LE would sit on the video for over two years before releasing it.

Just one of many baffling LE actions which have severely hampered this case.

Right.
I meant the still was released the evening of 2/17/17.

 

[taylorss]

It is so odd that RA told the conservation officer how he was right there in the spot & wearing the clothes…. JMO I can imagine he didnt have a lie ready when the question came, so didn’t know what to say but the truth.

Why didn’t he have an answer ready??
I wonder if the discussion with the conservation officer was impromptu… if so, maybe that could have something to do with how the info wound up misfiled. Just speculating Moo…. I guess each of those two factors - RA’s all-but confession & its disastrous misfiling - is so unbelievable that I want to connect them in some way!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

It is so odd that RA told the conservation officer how he was right there in the spot & wearing the clothes…. JMO I can imagine he didnt have a lie ready when the question came, so didn’t know what to say but the truth.

Why didn’t he have an answer ready??
I wonder if the discussion with the conservation officer was impromptu… if so, maybe that could have something to do with how the info wound up misfiled. Just speculating Moo…. I guess each of those two factors - RA’s all-but confession & its disastrous misfiling - is so unbelievable that I want to connect them in some way!

Pretty much agree with this except I don’t believe for a minute it was misfiled. I don’t know whether LE was overworked, overwrought, or incompetent, but somebody looked at that report early on and made a conscious decision that no follow-up was required. And I do not believe file clerks would have been making that decision.
Someone with some kind of standing decided to put it in the “no further action necessary“ file. It was not misfiled.
Just my thoughts, but I truly believe that Kathy Shank, who stood onstage with LE at RA’s press conference on 10/31/2022, began reviewing files on her own, and found RA’s interview, while LE was out kowtowing to KAK.
Delphi police, CCSO, ISP, and the FBI own this. When the trial finally starts and LE is no longer protected by that ridiculous gag order, we’ll know for sure who messed this up for 5+ years and I’m pretty sure it was not some file clerk.

 

[sunshineray]

Richard Allen's defense attorney's file motion to throw out ballistics evidence​

DELPHI — Just ahead of Thursday's hearing, defense attorney's representing Richard Allen have filed a motion to throw out evidence relating to bullets.

<snipped>

Upon their review of the probable cause affidavit, Allen's attorneys referred to the evidence of the bullet as "flimsy". Shortly after their statement, a gag order was put in place by Judge Fran Gull.

Richard Allen's defense attorney's file motion to throw out ballistics evidence

Edited By Me - should have known you sleuths would have already been on this

Geez, what's "flimsy" about a bullet, that's been cycled through the defendant's gun, being found between the victims? I'd say that's rather damning evidence. JMO

 

[crhedBngr]

This hearing is tomorrow morning, correct?

If so, we'll have to find some links for media Tweets.

JMVHO.

 

[Niner]

This is a bit long - so will shorten it up. Lots of notes since his last hearing.


Thursday, June 15th:
*Motions Hearing (@ 8:30am ET) - IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky”/”Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of felony murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Held without bond. Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. Dept. of Corrections at a more secure facility. And transferred to Westville Correctional Facility.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull has replaced Judge Benjamin Diener. Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen's public appointed attorneys.
Trial was set to begin on 3/20/23 was continued with no further dates. Jurors will be chosen from Allen County & transported to Carroll County for trial.
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 2/13/23 reference post #469 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/...ers-richard-allen-arrested-162.659344/page-24
2/16/23: Order Issued. On the Court's Motion & with the consent of the parties, the hearing scheduled for 2/17/23 at 10am on Defendant's Petition to Let Bail will be continued & the resetting of the same will be conducted with the attorneys, the Defendant & the Court appearing remotely 2/17/23 at 1:30pm. Court orders the Transport Order for the Defendant cancelled. Per Judge Frances Gull. Time was changed to 12:30pm.
2/17/23 Update: Judge also grants media intervenors motion to release prosecutor’s Oct. 28 motion requesting sealing to charges & affidavit. In addition to the bail issue, the parties involved will discuss potential dates for a new trial during the June hearing. An Allen County court official said Allen’s attorneys told the court it would be “shocking” if they could be ready for trial before the end of the year due to the amount of evidence they have to comb through during discovery. Allen’s defense team is seeking to have him released on a “reasonable bail” as he awaits trial, arguing that the evidence isn’t strong enough to keep him behind bars. Prosecutors countered that the evidence “adds up to strong & evident proof of guilt” & believe Allen should stay in custody.” The remote hearing for this afternoon for bond hearing was moved to 6/15/23 & also on 6/16/23 @ 8:30am.
2/21/23: Order Issued. Order grants Motion Requesting Protective Order Governing Discovery by Judge Frances Gull. Order Issued. Order grants Media Intervenor's Renewed Motion to Intervene & Motion To Grant Public Access to the State's Verified Request to Prohibit Public Access by Judge Frances Gull. Order Issued. Court grants Defendant's Motion to Continue Bail Hearing & resets the hearing to 6/15-16/23 at 8:30am. Jury trial also continued to be reset at the bond/omnibus hearing 6/15/23.
4/5/23 Update: Defense attorney Bradley A. Rozzi for Allen have filed an emergency motion to have him moved to a new jail in Indiana, claiming he's in "steep decline" due to conditions & his treatment at his current facility. He's been held since November of 2022 at the Westville Correctional Facility to modify safekeeping order that was filed by Allen's attorneys Wednesday in the Carroll County Circuit Court. The motion asks that a judge order Allen be removed from that facility, & instead housed at the Cass County Jail, which the lawyers argue is more suited to hold a defendant awaiting trial. Simply put, this version of Allen was a very different version than counsel for Mr. Allen had interacted with over the past five months," the motion states. "Mr. Allen appeared to be suffering from various psychotic symptoms which counsel would describe as schizophrenic & delusional. “Counsel further believes that in our April 4, 2023 interaction, Mr. Allen seems to be suffering from memory loss & is demonstrating an overall inability to communicate rationally with counsel & family members.” Prosecutors conveyed that they don't object to Allen being moved to a different jail, the defendant's lawyers say, but the Carroll County Sheriff’s Dept. rejected the request, the paperwork states. “Mr. Allen asserts that said denial is a deliberate attempt to impose conditions upon him that are intended to frustrate his purpose in defending against the charged allegations & create a hardship on him which would drive any human to mental breakdown,” his lawyers allege in the filing.
4/14/23: Petition filed. Verified request to prohibit public access to a court record filed by State. Response filed. State files response to defense's emergency motion to modify safekeeping Order.
4/14/23 Update: Judge Fran Gull says Allen can be moved to a new facility, although the judge didn’t specify where he would go. Gull’s order, issued Friday, followed an emergency motion from his defense attorneys last week in which they expressed concerns about their client’s deteriorating mental & physical state. Allen is next due in court on June 15 for a bail review hearing. A June 16 date has also been set aside in case the court requires additional time.
4/20/23: Petition filed. Verified request to prohibit public access to a court record filed by State. Motion filed. State files Motion for Leave of Court to subpoena third-party records. Subpoena/Summons filed by State. Subpoena Duces Tecum. Four times filed. 4/28/23: Correspondence to/from Court filed. Westville Correctional Inmate Letter.
5/3/23: Subpoena/Summons (CVS & Westville) filed by State. 5/4/23: Motion to reconsider & request for due process hearing filed. Petition filed: Verified request to prohibit public access to a court record. Motion to quash subpoena (CVS & Westville) filed. Petition filed. Verified request to prohibit public access to a court record. All filed by defense.
5/17/23: Motion for temporary restraining Order & Preliminary Injunction filed by defense. 5/17/23: Re Thomas vs. Carroll County: Notice of settlement pursuant to Local Rule 16-1filed by all parties by all defendants (Samuel Hughes). 5/18/23: re Thomas vs. Carroll County. Order: Parties directed to file dismissal papers by 7/3/23 re 35 Joint Notice of Settlement by Magistrate Judge Andrew P. Rodovich on 5/18/23. 5/22/23: Notice of Discovery filed by defense. Motion to suppress filed by defense. Motion to convert let bail hearing into suppression hearing filed by defense.
5/30/23: Order Issued. The Court, having had the defendant's Motion to Quash Subpoena under advisement, now grants the Motion to Quash the Subpoena Duces Tecum directed to Westville Correctional Facility relating to defendant's mental health records, mental health evaluations and/or exams, medical documentation and/or medical evaluations. The Motion to Quash the Subpoena Duces Tecum directed to Westville Correctional Facility regarding audio/video recordings, written observations, recordings, phone calls, written requests, or other documentation is denied. The Motion to Quash the Subpoena Duces Tecum directed to CVS Headquarters is denied. The defense Motion to Reconsider & Request for Due Process Hearing ordered set for hearing 6/15/23 @ 10am. The hearing currently set on defendant's request for bail is ordered converted to a hearing on defendant's Motion to Suppress. Judicial Officer Frances Gull.
6/6/23: Motion filed for ex parte determination of Defendant's Motion for appointment of experts filed by defense. 6/7/23: Motion for Order on continuing Disclosure of defendant's mental health records filed by defense. 6/8/23: Appearance for limited appearance of attorney. Motion filed for public access to court records filed by Mystery Sheet LLC dba Murder Sheet.
6/9/23: Motion for Transport Order filed by defense. Transport Order entered for hearing on 6/15/23 & 6/16/23 hearing was rescheduled. 6/13/23: Petition filed. Verified request to prohibit public access to a court record. Objection filed. State's objection to defendant's motion for Order on continuing disclosure of defendant's mental health records. Objection filed. State's objection to defendant's Motion to Suppress. Motion in Limine regarding ballistics (to exclude from evidence) filed by defense attorneys Bradley Rozzi & Andrew Baldwin, representing Allen filed a "motion to limine regarding ballistics". This is a motion requesting ballistics evidence be thrown out from the trial. While the motion is sealed from public viewing, knowing the motion is related to ballistics raising questions due to the previously released probable cause affidavit that lead to Allen's arrest. That bullet was found to come from a gun belonging to Allen.

 

[Boxer]

Pretty much agree with this except I don’t believe for a minute it was misfiled. I don’t know whether LE was overworked, overwrought, or incompetent, but somebody looked at that report early on and made a conscious decision that no follow-up was required. And I do not believe file clerks would have been making that decision.
Someone with some kind of standing decided to put it in the “no further action necessary“ file. It was not misfiled.
Just my thoughts, but I truly believe that Kathy Shank, who stood onstage with LE at RA’s press conference on 10/31/2022, began reviewing files on her own, and found RA’s interview, while LE was out kowtowing to KAK.
Delphi police, CCSO, ISP, and the FBI own this. When the trial finally starts and LE is no longer protected by that ridiculous gag order, we’ll know for sure who messed this up for 5+ years and I’m pretty sure it was not some file clerk.

Completely agree.

 

[Falling Down]

I've been thinking about the witnesses who claimed to have seen a man resembling RA. None of them mentioned seeing an outline of a gun in his jacket? We saw it in the grainy pics of BG.

I think they should unseal the search warrant.

I'm of the opinion he had plenty of time to get to his vehicle, and then back to the bridge,

I believe the interview where he described his clothing wasn't the initial statement to the conservation officer but was actually quite recent. Why he would admit to wearing those clothes now if he's guilty is a fascinating question, but guilty people have done stranger things.

Common for perps to place themselves within an investigation early on, even to for them to admitting to being near a CS.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

There will be no video coverage of the hearing right? I guess we'll have to rely on tweets from the media.

 

[Falling Down]

I think it is clear that the video was not seen until the bodies were discovered and her phone was found. Therefore, he talked to the CO well after the event but probably not before the image/video was known to exist.

He self-reported because his image was known to be out there OR BEFORE he knew it was out there.

Bottom line, he self-incriminated himself to be on the trail near the bridge around the time of the killings.

He was his own witness.

For reference, first still image from the video was releases 2.15.17, in fact I remember it was that early evening.

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

JMO