IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[TL4S]

Now I get it, releasing the names of the witnesses contained in an unredacted PC that was an attachment to one of the motions was unintentional.

Court docket reveals how Delphi teens died, as well as witnesses' names

The world learned that Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen admitted to the killings during an April 3 phone call to his wife.

www.jconline.com

“……..Publishing Wednesday's cache of documents did not come without a glitch.

"Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remained sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses," Gull wrote in her June 28 order.

But an exhibit in the state's objection to defendant's motion to suppress filed June 13 included an unredacted copy of the original probable cause, including the names of witnesses who were on the trail on Feb. 13, 2017, and what they specifically told investigators.

The Journal & Courier is not naming those witnesses out of respect for the intent of Gull's order.

Publishing Wednesday's cache of documents did not come without a glitch.

"Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remained sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses," Gull wrote in her June 28 order.

But an exhibit in the state's objection to defendant's motion to suppress filed June 13 included an unredacted copy of the original probable cause, including the names of witnesses who were on the trail on Feb. 13, 2017, and what they specifically told investigators.

The Journal & Courier is not naming those witnesses out of respect for the intent of Gull's order.”

Thanks for linking this, I've been wondering! It's this kind of mistake that jeopardizes witness safety and part of what NMcL was so desperately trying to avoid.

 

[FromGermany1]

I think he was just going to teach them a lesson...like scold them or scare them like saying they'd better watch out who they laugh at in the future, they'd better respect their elders, it might be a mad man instead of him or something like that.

AW had an encounter with a driver at a parking lot of a Supermarket, where she was shopping with Abby. The driver said to her out of the blue something like "never to trust a person, they could be different than assumed" (wording played back in it's meaning only).
I wonder, if AW does know now, that this odd stranger was RA??

 

[FromGermany1]

Is it typical for the family to not be allowed in the house while it's being searched by LE?

In TV crimes they have to stay near but not close.

 

[FrostedGlass]

In TV crimes they have to stay near but not close.

Are those the ones where the cops are planting evidence?

I never let people into my house when I'm not home; even in this apartment, I stay here when the maintenance man comes. If LE came to my house with a SW, I'd be so spazzing that the neighbors would put me on some Youtube clown show.

 

[O.Incandenza]

Could anyone explain it better to me how LE can seize items during a search? Doesn't the warrant only cover certain items, like clothing, electronics, weapons, etc.? How broad can they make the warrant? So like the fabric straps, motorcycle cover, headbands, and plastic water bottle... where do they fit within the confines of the warrant?

The warrant lists the specific items that they are searching for. But if they encounter other items during the search that they reasonably believe may be related to a crime, they can seize those as well.

They do need to limit their search to areas where the specific items they're searching for might be located though. For example, if the search warrant only says they're looking for a car, they can't go around the house opening drawers, because there's no way a car could be in a drawer. But as long as they're looking in a place that is consistent with at least 1 of the listed items, anything they find is fair game.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This is all my opinion:

I don't think he went to the trails that day to harm anyone. He just carried a gun and a knife with him always when he's outdoors on trails.

I think he past them on the trail as he was heading back from the bridge to his car. I think they giggled when he past them like teenage girls do, they giggle at everything...and he thought they were laughing at him. He became enraged and then waited until they were on the bridge themselves and he turned around and doubled back to them. (He looked NW up the trail and didn't see any new people heading to the bridge so the coast was clear.)

I think he was just going to teach them a lesson...like scold them or scare them like saying they'd better watch out who they laugh at in the future, they'd better respect their elders, it might be a mad man instead of him or something like that. He said "down the hill" and maybe when they didn't react, he pulled out his gun. On the way down the hill, he realized then that his anger had gotten him into trouble and had escalated it into a criminal act. Then he was walking them down the dirt road below with the gun trying to figure out how to tell them to keep walking and don't look back so he could go back up the bridge and escape via the regular trail back to his car.

But one (or both) of the girls bolted across the creek to get away. He panicked and went after them only to catch them as they struggled up the muddy bank. Probably caught one of them and told the other to come here or he'd kill her.

He then had a bigger problem.... they saw his face close up. He had passed the tipping point and had to silence the witnesses... so he then killed them.

As he took a long time to figure out how to cover up this crime, he decided to make it look like a sexual assault and spend the majority of the hour he was there covering his tracks by removing clothing that might have his DNA on it and throwing into the creek. Staging their bodies. Dragging them to the middle of that flat area far enough from both the creek and from the cemetery so they couldn't be easily spotted quickly. Probably was shocked at what he had done and covered their eyes and their bodies.

He eventually walked up to the cemetery and maybe worked his way thru the trees back to the road only to eventually be seen by the one driver.

I think the bullet accidentally fell out of his pocket when he was removing their clothing and dragging them around.

Again, just an educated guess.

I appreciate your speculation. It’s what we all do around here.
I’m not so sure I can get behind it though.
The thought that RA was just a regular guy strolling the trails, enjoying a nice winter day with his gun and knife until he is suddenly triggered by innocent giggles from the girls.
He decides to teach them a lesson? About what? How not to behave like young teenage girls? He has a few big uh-oh moments, as piece by piece he compounds felony upon felony trying to fix the felony before the one before it until he brutally kills the girls. Hard to see that.
My speculation.
The description of RA on the trails was a man who was rude, brusque, and self absorbed. He was not there to meet Libby and Abby, but he was there looking for someone to kill.
He walked past the three teen girls because three was probably too many, but mostly because they were fairly close to Freedom Bridge so the chance of pulling it off without being seen was very low.
The woman who saw him on the first platform of the High Bridge was the most vulnerable. Alone with nobody around. It’s unclear whether RA saw her though.
And then here come the girls.
Just my thoughts, might be right, might be wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks for linking this, I've been wondering! It's this kind of mistake that jeopardizes witness safety and part of what NMcL was so desperately trying to avoid.

Yes technology would’ve discovered these names in the impending released files by using key word searches. Instead someone was just reading through the 100 pr more printed pages? That’s almost as bad as if RA’s tip was a “misfiled” piece of paper. This county really needs to advance to the 21st century!

But another thing, girls are usually really poor at keeping secrets. Remember the one who spoke to the media about a friend sighting a man in black? I bet everyone local knew the identity of these girls from the get go. If it was my daughter, finding out there was no immediate arrest, I’d have relocated my family to the other side of the country in a flash! The names accidentally being released will probably ensure RA’s bail is permanently out of the question, that might be the best thing. JMO

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

Is it typical for the family to not be allowed in the house while it's being searched by LE?

I think so. The house next to me was raided several years ago by the feds. The husband and wife were kicked out of their home while the feds searched and carried out boxes for about 8 hours. If you were LE, you wouldn’t want the owners in the way or trying to hide or dispose of anything.

 

[iamnotagolem]

This is all my opinion:

I don't think he went to the trails that day to harm anyone. He just carried a gun and a knife with him always when he's outdoors on trails.

I think he past them on the trail as he was heading back from the bridge to his car. I think they giggled when he past them like teenage girls do, they giggle at everything...and he thought they were laughing at him. He became enraged and then waited until they were on the bridge themselves and he turned around and doubled back to them. (He looked NW up the trail and didn't see any new people heading to the bridge so the coast was clear.)

I think he was just going to teach them a lesson...like scold them or scare them like saying they'd better watch out who they laugh at in the future, they'd better respect their elders, it might be a mad man instead of him or something like that. He said "down the hill" and maybe when they didn't react, he pulled out his gun. On the way down the hill, he realized then that his anger had gotten him into trouble and had escalated it into a criminal act. Then he was walking them down the dirt road below with the gun trying to figure out how to tell them to keep walking and don't look back so he could go back up the bridge and escape via the regular trail back to his car.

But one (or both) of the girls bolted across the creek to get away. He panicked and went after them only to catch them as they struggled up the muddy bank. Probably caught one of them and told the other to come here or he'd kill her.

He then had a bigger problem.... they saw his face close up. He had passed the tipping point and had to silence the witnesses... so he then killed them.

As he took a long time to figure out how to cover up this crime, he decided to make it look like a sexual assault and spend the majority of the hour he was there covering his tracks by removing clothing that might have his DNA on it and throwing into the creek. Staging their bodies. Dragging them to the middle of that flat area far enough from both the creek and from the cemetery so they couldn't be easily spotted quickly. Probably was shocked at what he had done and covered their eyes and their bodies.

He eventually walked up to the cemetery and maybe worked his way thru the trees back to the road only to eventually be seen by the one driver.

I think the bullet accidentally fell out of his pocket when he was removing their clothing and dragging them around.

Again, just an educated guess.

This is pretty much my theory. I am not convinced SA was involved. Or that the “missing panties” were taken by RA. It could be as simple and one of the girls didn’t have clean panties and just went without. It’s not a big deal and wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what happened.

 

[Teche]

View attachment 432104
Ouuu. They may have found the head covering! I always thought he was wearing a cap just like this.
View attachment 432105

So TO ME it sounds like he racked the slide on his .40 in front of the girls on the bridge. Probably meaning to show them that he was serious. Then once he gets them down to the creek he tries to shoot one for some reason but the gun jams because it's probably just been sitting in a drawer gathering dust, racks the slide again to eject the bullet so he can try again, then the girls start running and he gives up and resorts to the knife.

He sure did have a lot of large recreational knives. He doesn't seem the type to actually GO hunting, so for him to have that many to me is sus.

He may have used the gun to gain control and racked it without realizing a bullet ejected. The knife could have been chosen to kill the victims because people walking the trail would hear the gun.

 

[TL4S]

If we do find out that RA is the killer and he was set off simply by some girls being silly or uncooperative, I'd have to assume then that he was either a ticking time bomb, or high as f'. He had a gun on him, actually in his hand, but in his rage, he still had the wherewithal to put the gun away and use a quieter knife instead? Maybe. But that puts him right in the thick of it, blood and mud and all. And it didn't just escalate to murder. He spent time with them, their clothes coming off, doing whatever he did to leave signatures, an "odd" CS, and move and stage the bodies, not coming out of the woods for nearly an hour and 45 minutes. Maybe he ate the freaking underwear and sock too. But seriously, if that's really what set him off, it was bound to happen eventually. JMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If we do find out that RA is the killer and he was set off simply by some girls being silly or uncooperative, I'd have to assume then that he was either a ticking time bomb, or high as f'. He had a gun on him, actually in his hand, but in his rage, he still had the wherewithal to put the gun away and use a quieter knife instead? Maybe. But that puts him right in the thick of it, blood and mud and all. And it didn't just escalate to murder. He spent time with them, their clothes coming off, doing whatever he did to leave signatures, an "odd" CS, and move and stage the bodies, not coming out of the woods for nearly an hour and 45 minutes. Maybe he ate the freaking underwear and sock too. But seriously, if that's really what set him off, it was bound to happen eventually. JMO.

Oh how we've speculated over the years huh? Old BG, young BG sketch, BG's hat, limp, height, clothes, etc. Seems like forever, and that fact that he was 'rediscovered' in Sept 2022 after coming forward himself right after the murders really galls me. How did that happen, really? Do you think that will be disclosed during the trial? I would think it would have to be.

I for one don't want to know the gory cs details, just too horrible for those girls for that to be made public, but what I do want to know if whether RA targeted Abby and Libby (I still believe he did), and if so, how? That's my biggest question.

MOO

EBM: Added sketch info

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Oh how we've speculated over the years huh? BG's hat, limp, height, clothes, etc. Seems like forever, and that fact that he was 'rediscovered' in Sept 2022 after coming forward himself right after the murders really galls me. How did that happen, really? Do you think that will be disclosed during the trial? I would think it would have to be.

I for one don't want to know the gory cs details, just too horrible for those girls for that to be made public, but what I do want to know if whether RA targeted Abby and Libby (I still believe he did), and if so, how? That's my biggest question.

MOO

I can't wait for the trial in part for this very reason. The ball was definitely dropped here IMO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

The following is all JMO:

If the girls just irritated or angered RA why would he not choose to shoot them once he had them in a secluded area?

He could have walked away and been done within a minute. Gun shots in that particular area would not have necessarily draw much attention. People have said it's common between hunting and target shooting.

To stab or cut 2 girls to death requires personal contact. They were undressed, posed and left to the elements. All of these are indicative of a sexual element.

It is Piquerism. This is a term for sexual gratification by piercing the skin or cutting the skin. It's basically a form of sadism.

I can't fathom the extreme nature of the crime falling under a rage killing.
JMO

 

[Pseudonymph]

Where is it documented that Libby fought back?

I went and looked for it, but I can’t find anything legit. I know there were the leaked texts that aren’t official, but I also swear I read an article where Libby’s grandpa said she fought. I guess I will fall back on the witness who said the man she saw appeared to have been in a fight and withdraw my statement about Libby.

 

[Damarna]

I went and looked for it, but I can’t find anything legit. I know there were the leaked texts that aren’t official, but I also swear I read an article where Libby’s grandpa said she fought. I guess I will fall back on the witness who said the man she saw appeared to have been in a fight and withdraw my statement about Libby.

I took the comment to be like “I know Libby well enough to believe she fought.” I didn’t take it as a fact. I could have misinterpreted it. Looking for a link.

 

[MistyWaters]

I went and looked for it, but I can’t find anything legit. I know there were the leaked texts that aren’t official, but I also swear I read an article where Libby’s grandpa said she fought. I guess I will fall back on the witness who said the man she saw appeared to have been in a fight and withdraw my statement about Libby.

This is probably what you were remembered reading -

Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens: I know she fought killer

Dennis Bridge, 59, lost granddaughter Liberty German 14, when she and friend Abigail Williams were murdered on a hike outside Delphi, Indiana. He tells DailyMail.com she would have 'put up a fight'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

“The grandfather of one of the teens found murdered in rural Indiana believes his 'strong-willed girl' put up a fight for her life….”

 

[wary]

I took the comment to be like “I know Libby well enough to believe she fought.” I didn’t take it as a fact. I could have misinterpreted it. Looking for a link.

That’s what I remember, too.

 

[dm799]

There was certainly speculation about fighting back, however it has been known for some time now (I believe it first came to light when the RL search warrant made its way online) that there were 'no visible signs of a struggle or fight' on either victim.

 

[Dhighsmith]

There was certainly speculation about fighting back, however it has been known for some time now (I believe it first came to light when the RL search warrant made its way online) that there were 'no visible signs of a struggle or fight' on either victim.

I think there were some legit crumbs of info shared but also a lot of misinformation and just outright false statements. The claim that Libby and Abby referred to BG as “creepy” caused wild speculation of encountering him earlier on the trail or bridge but that reference to being “creepy” was stated by one of the 3 girls interviewed who reported seeing him on trail.