IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[Ursamajr]

Have we got it all backwards? He wasn't in the 2:07 photo because he was behind Libby. So Abby might've seen him, with or without worry, then as the girls get closer to one another, he passes them on the bridge? Gets behind them and then forces them to the end of the bridge and DTH? Maybe the girls were close together when Libby started videoing .... one reason that LE couldn't release more video, that blip was the only splice the girls themselves weren't visible in.

Not sure this lines up but it's a thought anyway.

JMO

Another valid theory! Adding the fact that the video shows him approaching from the northwest side... he could have fully crossed from the NW, passed Libby and Abby on the SE end, Libby takes the 2:07 pic and posts, RA turns at the end of the bridge and passes Libby and Abby for the second time on his way heading back NW. Libby and Abby linger, making small talk with each other as RA passes walking NW but then makes an about-face and heads back towards them sometime around 2:13 when the video starts.

Is this whats called getting lost in the weeds?

 

[FrostedGlass]

We can argue that RA was trying to avoid surveillance cameras, but he missed the most obvious ones in the entire area on HH. We could see them plain as day from photos on Google maps right after the murders, so I don't personally think cameras crossed his mind, at least not on the way there. JMO.

We can argue that it isn't uncommon to back into parking spaces, but imo, there was maybe more to the way he'd parked that drew attention. It was significant enough for at least two people to notice it, report it, and LE to include it in the PCA. JMO.

We can argue that it's normal to carry a gun and knife, but if what we see in his pocket really is the gun, then that is not the normal way to carry, imo. And considering both were used in the commission of a violent crime, I'm not going to give him the benefit of doubt. JMO.

We can argue he was just out hiking that day, and was triggered, but he parked concealed-like, was carrying weapons, was described as walking with purpose, head down, unresponsive, and "grumpy," made it to the bridge in probably 15 minutes, then waited there for over 20 minutes. JMO.

I mean, in my view, his behavior was suspicious from the very beginning, when he parked. We can argue all these things, but in the end, he did not just go for a hike that day, he killed two girls (allegedly). To imagine he did all these things and then just happened to be triggered, or that he had just wanted to kill someone randomly near the MHB seems a farther stretch than him knowing the girls were going to be there, even if only knowing that an hour before they left. JMO.

ETA: in regards to the white spots being A's shoes:
We know the video is only 43 seconds, that's not enough time for A to be behind him, pass him, get ahead of him, and still discuss him with L as he approached, IMO. And if for some reason her shoes were off and sitting on the bridge, he walked right past them, they all went down the hill, and he emerged muddy and bloody along 300. If her shoes were on the bridge, wouldn't KG have seen them when she crossed the bridge that night, looking for the girls? The shoes weren't missing, according to the PCA (only underwear and a sock were not recovered). And I don't think LE superimposed BG over a video of A on the bridge, either. Why would they do that? I just can't find any way possible for the white spots to be A's shoes. JMO.

A well thought-out post, as always.

The random murders theory is a bit tidier than the planned one is. The planned one takes us in all kinds of directions, which we have no explanations for (atm). Although the cloth straps they took in the search could have been camera straps and that leads the way to somewhere.

 

[TL4S]

A well thought-out post, as always.

The random murders theory is a bit tidier than the planned one is. The planned one takes us in all kinds of directions, which we have no explanations for (atm). Although the cloth straps they took in the search could have been camera straps and that leads the way to somewhere.

I can honestly see it either way, random or planned, but at the moment, I feel like his behavior as I see it is too suspicious to be random. Maybe I fall somewhere in between. I don't feel like this was a crime with lots of pre-planning, I don't even believe the trail/bridge was a purposefully chosen location, but I also don't think he was suddenly triggered while on a normal hike. None of those theories are invalid, of course, because we don't know the motive. But IMO, it looks messy and rushed (drove past obvious surveillance cameras, a quick concealed park job in a public lot, gun in pocket, face partially covered, no great way to get back to vehicle afterwards). He went straight to the bridge and waited, IMO.

He could have just decided he was pissed at the world and was going to take out anyone he came across at the bridge that day, but that is very haphazard to me. The girls' families insist them asking to go to the bridge was random, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have told someone or posted something online an hour or two before they went and that information was intercepted by the killer, who rushed to get there before they did. The timeline works with that scenario, imo. But it's only a guess. LE seems to believe that kind of killer would take photos and/or souvenirs, so I think there was something intense driving the killer that day. JMO.

 

[CGBSpender]

I agree with all of this except the gorge is impassable at various sections along there, that is along the creek's sides.

My route(s) for BG are either A)Cemetery, M farm access road along the treeline, to C.R. 300, or B) There are at least two short trails on the M land in the gorge, one leads to the SW corner of their farmland parcel on the south side of 300, there's a 90 degree bend in the drive along the treeline, mere feet from the main trail going to MHB.

By access road/drive I mean the path farmers use to get around their fields, along tree lines. There's a U-shaped one on the farm parcel. Even better to go that route, BG could have avoided the cemetery entirely.

Great post.

JMO

I think I see what you are saying about the treeline trail on the M land...that would be a pretty decent exit route to use without being too visible. He still runs the risk of trail cameras and possibly the HHS camera on his exit route...but his options are pretty limited so it is a chance he may have had to take.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

Incredibly frustrating to watch the Jerry Holeman interview again, knowing what we know now. Everything they needed was already in their possession at that point, they were just too incompetent to put the pieces together.

"Somebody knows what happened. For whatever reason they won't come forward. We wish they would, obviously, because this person's probably gonna do this again, and I'd hate for this to happen to you or your loved ones."

I forget the poster, but someone said something like the authorities turned a run of the mill murder investigation into a multi year perplexing mystery, and I completely agree.

And I'm yet hear even the faintest whiff of contrition from any of them.

"A judge signed a probable cause affidavit for the arrest of Richard Allen."

When that reporter pressed that question and that is the only thing that could be said, that is when I started wondering if LE had doubts they arrested the right man.

If it is Richard Allen then this case could have been solved in less than 2 weeks, at whatever point Richard Allen came forward to tell LE he was there that day.

 

[somequestions]

I agree that the photo was likely taken shortly before 2:07, but even if it was exactly 2:07, he could have gotten on the bridge right after and still made it to them by 2:13. JMO. To me, we know the two important times: 1:49 girls dropped off, and 2:13 video. That's 24 minutes, and what's scary to me is that he was already on the bridge when the witness got there, which means he stayed around the bridge nearly a half hour before engaging the girls. JMO.

As for how fast or slow bridge guy got to Abby and Libby on the bridge or whether he approached them from the trail side or the southeast end are questions I cannot answer. I question it, but it is hard to guess.

I thought it was strange based on Abigail Williams location on the bridge in the 2:07 or before picture, that it did not look like she had moved forward on the bridge very far for the video to have been taken at 2:13pm. There could be many scenarios like maybe Abby and Libby stopped to talk to each other for a few minutes on the bridge. But if we assume Abigail Williams kept moving forward, I thought it was strange. In the videos and pictures it looks as if Liberty German is ahead of Abigail Williams all the time because it looks like she is documenting her friend crossing the Monon High Bridge.

Until we have the actual video and audio along with the true timestamps, it is just a theory.

 

[TL4S]

As for how fast or slow bridge guy got to Abby and Libby on the bridge or whether he approached them from the trail side or the southeast end are questions I cannot answer. I question it, but it is hard to guess.

I thought it was strange based on Abigail Williams location on the bridge in the 2:07 or before picture, that it did not look like she had moved forward on the bridge very far for the video to have been taken at 2:13pm. There could be many scenarios like maybe Abby and Libby stopped to talk to each other for a few minutes on the bridge. But if we assume Abigail Williams kept moving forward, I thought it was strange. In the videos and pictures it looks as if Liberty German is ahead of Abigail Williams all the time because it looks like she is documenting her friend crossing the Monon High Bridge.

Until we have the actual video and audio along with the true timestamps, it is just a theory.

That's always bothered me, too. I know the girls were likely going slower due to it being A's first time crossing the bridge, taking photos, etc., but they seemed to be moving at almost half the pace as the killer, who really was likely moving at about normal pace according to people who have videoed themselves going across.

 

[Megnut]

Also.... we have only considered the video in the context of the murders that followed.

A and L had no reason to think BG was coming for them or even toward them. They may have described him as somewhat creepy and on a mission, fully expecting him to continue on past them to het wherever he was so serious about getting to.

i think it wasn't until he said GDTH that they had to take a two-count and recalibrate. >Us? You're talking to us? Why are you talking to us?< and while they were processing that, he gained control... gun....

Libby may have been purposefully videoing Abby's completion of the bridge. (I think KAK had been pressing Libby to be at a place -- whether just this bridge and that day or more places other days and thus one materialized. How easy to get her guard down by challenging her to challenge Abby to cross it and send him video to prove it. Perfectly harmless, right? Except while Libby may have thought sgeceas doing one safe thing, KAK was setting her up to be at a remote location, vulnerable to the other predators hiding behind his account.

I wonder if the full video suggests Abby was the focus and BG incidental or was she zeroed in on him exclusively.

46 seconds is actually quite a bit of time....

I don't think they knew they were in danger until gun.

And by then the only choice left to them might have been to coordinate bolting.... which I tend to think they did.

Brave girls.

JMO

 

[TheVisual]

We can argue that RA was trying to avoid surveillance cameras, but he missed the most obvious ones in the entire area on HH. We could see them plain as day from photos on Google maps right after the murders, so I don't personally think cameras crossed his mind, at least not on the way there. JMO.

We can argue that it isn't uncommon to back into parking spaces, but imo, there was maybe more to the way he'd parked that drew attention. It was significant enough for at least two people to notice it, report it, and LE to include it in the PCA. JMO.

We can argue that it's normal to carry a gun and knife, but if what we see in his pocket really is the gun, then that is not the normal way to carry, imo. And considering both were used in the commission of a violent crime, I'm not going to give him the benefit of doubt. JMO.

We can argue he was just out hiking that day, and was triggered, but he parked concealed-like, was carrying weapons, was described as walking with purpose, head down, unresponsive, and "grumpy," made it to the bridge in probably 15 minutes, then waited there for over 20 minutes. JMO.

I mean, in my view, his behavior was suspicious from the very beginning, when he parked. We can argue all these things, but in the end, he did not just go for a hike that day, he killed two girls (allegedly). To imagine he did all these things and then just happened to be triggered, or that he had just wanted to kill someone randomly near the MHB seems a farther stretch than him knowing the girls were going to be there, even if only knowing that an hour before they left. JMO.

ETA: in regards to the white spots being A's shoes:
We know the video is only 43 seconds, that's not enough time for A to be behind him, pass him, get ahead of him, and still discuss him with L as he approached, IMO. And if for some reason her shoes were off and sitting on the bridge, he walked right past them, they all went down the hill, and he emerged muddy and bloody along 300. If her shoes were on the bridge, wouldn't KG have seen them when she crossed the bridge that night, looking for the girls? The shoes weren't missing, according to the PCA (only underwear and a sock were not recovered). And I don't think LE superimposed BG over a video of A on the bridge, either. Why would they do that? I just can't find any way possible for the white spots to be A's shoes. JMO.

I certainly don't believe that AG's shoes were just sitting there on the bridge. That's ridiculous! I'm sure Abby was wanting to get off the bridge and wouldn't take time to take her shoes off. So maybe he just went around her and greeted them with " GUYS " (as a greeting) and said " I'm just going " down the hill ".( I have never felt that those few words went together) Then, he could have come back up. Maybe he even wanted to check things down below before he did anything. There are SO many variables. Even though LE has said the video is only 43 seconds, I'm sure there are a lot more pictures and maybe more video from their trek to MHB. And maybe more audio. WE DON'T KNOW! Le can say and do anything they want to release to the public.

 

[TheVisual]

Just a stupid question. Would it be possible that if LE gave RA's smell to search dogs that there could be any smell remnants of him be left at the crime scene after all this time?

 

[FromGermany1]

Have we got it all backwards? He wasn't in the 2:07 photo because he was behind Libby. So Abby might've seen him, with or without worry, then as the girls get closer to one another, he passes them on the bridge? Gets behind them and then forces them to the end of the bridge and DTH? Maybe the girls were close together when Libby started videoing .... one reason that LE couldn't release more video, that blip was the only splice the girls themselves weren't visible in.

Not sure this lines up but it's a thought anyway.

JMO

bbm
It makes a lot of sense to me, if BG was behind Libby at the end of the bridge and saw, how Libby took a photograph of Abby. Since the start in 2017, I always thought, that Abby looks as if she were embarrassed to stand there. She doesn't look as if her very best friend just nicely pictured her for fun and as a memory.

 

[Megnut]

bbm
It makes a lot of sense to me, if BG was behind Libby at the end of the bridge and saw, how Libby took a photograph of Abby. Since the start in 2017, I always thought, that Abby looks as if she were embarrassed to stand there. She doesn't look as if her very best friend just nicely pictured her for fun and as a memory.

If BG was behind Libby, Abby could see him approaching Libby from behind, is there anything to read in Abby's expression, not embarrassment but trying to telegraph a message discreetly to Libby? He's behind you.

Then BG walks past Libby, walks past Abby, turns around behind Abby, at which point Abby and Libby are very close together now (as BG was walking one direction, Abby was also walking, toward Libby who was stationary).... shortly after passing Abby he turns around behind her and says is he behind me?...

In this way he would have successfully rounded them up, herded as it were. He needed then close together for one command to suffice. Quite possibly he cocked the gun, almost in tandem with the girls seeing it and gained control of one girl, while training the gun on the other.

Girl 1 isn't going to anything to provoke BG if there's a gun aimed at her bff. And Girl 2 isn't going comply because he has possession of her bff.

I think the full video will show how methodical he was and how he orchestrated it toward the moment he secured full control.

Now he's got one under physical control and one, with a weapon aimed at her, both girls forced to comply to protect the other....

Jmo

 

[TL4S]

I certainly don't believe that AG's shoes were just sitting there on the bridge. That's ridiculous! I'm sure Abby was wanting to get off the bridge and wouldn't take time to take her shoes off. So maybe he just went around her and greeted them with " GUYS " (as a greeting) and said " I'm just going " down the hill ".( I have never felt that those few words went together) Then, he could have come back up. Maybe he even wanted to check things down below before he did anything. There are SO many variables. Even though LE has said the video is only 43 seconds, I'm sure there are a lot more pictures and maybe more video from their trek to MHB. And maybe more audio. WE DON'T KNOW! Le can say and do anything they want to release to the public.

LE has stated that the girls took other photos and videos before the 2:13 BG video, so we do know that. But LE cannot just say what they want in the PCAs without being factual. This is what they say:

The video recovered from Victim 2's iphone shows Victim 1 walking southeast on the Monon High Bridge while male subject wearing dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. As the male subject approaches Victim 1 and Victim 2, one of the victims mentions, "gun". Near the end of the video male is seen and heard telling the girls, "Guys, Down the hill." The girls then begin to proceed down the hill and the video ends.

They further believe he was carrying the Sig Sauer Model P226 from the audio from Victim 2’s video in which investigators believe they hear the sound of a gun being cycled and one of the victims ‘mentioning a “gun.” Investigators believe after that time Victim 1 and Victim 2 were removed from the bridge by Richard Allen to where their murders occurred.

IMO, these are details we can't really dispute. LE knows the exact sequence of events because it was all on that 43 second video. He approaches them, chambers his gun, one of the girls mentions "gun," and he tells them "Guys, down the hill," where they go right before the video ends. It's just my personal belief that A could not have been behind him, passed him, then gotten in front of him at that distance, right by L, then him approach them, and them head down the hill, all in 43 seconds. JMO.

 

[MACMUA]

So he confessed to his wife on the phone from jail? And he filed papers to dismiss his case...Bro..pick a lane. You confessed...

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen files motion to eliminate ballistic evidence from trial

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Delphi double murders suspect Richard Allen is now asking a judge to dismiss ballistics evidence in his case. Attorneys representing Allen, who faces two counts of murder in …

fox59.com

 

[TL4S]

07/19/2023

Order Issued The Court, having reviewed the Indiana Department of Correction's Motion to Quash Subpoena or Enter Protective Order, now finds that Defendant's request is unreasonable and oppressive, and beyond the scope of discovery. The Court, therefore, quashes the Subpoena and Request for Production to Non-Party issued by Counsel in May 19, 2023. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 07/18/2023

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Guess it wasn’t that much of an emergency after all. And totally fabricated by the defense.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen ordered to stay in state prison ahead of trial

The judge also ruled the defense could not go in to inspect his cell.

www.wthr.com

 

[arielilane]

Judge denies Richard Allen's request for transfer

In the order denying Richard Allen's request, Special Judge Fran Gull noted he was treated 'more favorably' than other inmates.

www.courttv.com

July 19, 2023

DELPHI, Ind. (Scripps News Indianapolis) — The judge in the Delphi murders case will not order suspect Richard Allen to be moved to another facility, stating he’s being treated “more favorably than other inmates housed at the Westville Correctional Facility.”

Special Judge Fran Gull says the decision on whether or not Allen will be moved to another facility will be left up to the DOC.

The order, issued Wednesday, states none of the evidence supports the defense’s claims that Allen is being treated unfairly by Westville staff. [...]

Allen’s trial is set to take place Jan. 8 through Jan. 26, 2024.

 

[Knitty]

MOD NOTE:

The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principle that applies to all aspects of the judicial process. The general public (that would be us) is allowed to have their opinion as to guilt or innocence based on information that is publicly available before trial. Obviously that opinion can change if/when information comes out to the contrary or once a jury has spoken.

Members here should not be afraid to state their opinion either way. If you disagree with that opinion, state your disagreement but do not badger other members with a view to belittling their opinion or trying to get them to think otherwise.

Please debate without ridicule, state your case, move on, scroll and roll, or if you just can't handle it, use the Ignore feature so you will not see their posts.

Thank you.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

"A judge signed a probable cause affidavit for the arrest of Richard Allen."

When that reporter pressed that question and that is the only thing that could be said, that is when I started wondering if LE had doubts they arrested the right man.

If it is Richard Allen then this case could have been solved in less than 2 weeks, at whatever point Richard Allen came forward to tell LE he was there that day.

I agree, so frustrating. I think the tech aspect of this case had LE believing this was someone that was from outside the immediate area, a non-local. RA was right there looking like a sheep as we commonly find out is truly a wolf. I think he went there that day as he had done many days looking for the right victim. There was no need for HIM to have a gun or a knife for protection. The trail was filled with many possible victims. My heart breaks for these families and this community. I pray we get the rightful conviction and if there are any other parties involved, pre/post crime, that they are hunted down just like these girls were.

 

[MistyWaters]

Judge denies Richard Allen's request for transfer

In the order denying Richard Allen's request, Special Judge Fran Gull noted he was treated 'more favorably' than other inmates.

www.courttv.com

July 19, 2023

DELPHI, Ind. (Scripps News Indianapolis) — The judge in the Delphi murders case will not order suspect Richard Allen to be moved to another facility, stating he’s being treated “more favorably than other inmates housed at the Westville Correctional Facility.”

Special Judge Fran Gull says the decision on whether or not Allen will be moved to another facility will be left up to the DOC.

The order, issued Wednesday, states none of the evidence supports the defense’s claims that Allen is being treated unfairly by Westville staff. [...]

Allen’s trial is set to take place Jan. 8 through Jan. 26, 2024.

Ha, this ruling is significant in more ways than one. Obviously RA’s mental health assessments did not confirm a deteriorating state at this facility, as the defence had alleged. Which also means it’s unlikely they can use poor mental health at this facility to refute the 5 or 6 confessions RA previously made by phone to his wife (and mother?). JMO