IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[TL4S]

I wasn't sure which motion was being order was being issued on. Here it is:
Along with Gull's order on the safekeeping motion, she also ruled Wednesday that the defense team could not go into the WCF to inspect Allen's cell, calling the desire to do so "unreasonable and oppressive, and beyond the scope of discovery."

Judge: Delphi suspect Richard Allen to stay at Westville

DELPHI — Richard Allen, a Carroll County man accused in the deaths of Delphi teenagers Libby German and Abby Williams, will now stay at the Westville Correctional Facility as he

www.goshennews.com

In a way, it felt kind of like RA's defense team was putting Westville on trial, imo. I'm not taking a stance on that as a strategic move, but it certainly muddied the waters for a while. Since a pre-trial detainee being held in a maximum security state prison is not a normal occurrence, I think the defense team saw room to argue the unprecedented consequences of that. It's a distraction from the murders of two young girls and opened a lot of discussions about things unrelated to their deaths.

 

[FrostedGlass]

In a way, it felt kind of like RA's defense team was putting Westville on trial, imo. I'm not taking a stance on that as a strategic move, but it certainly muddied the waters for a while. Since a pre-trial detainee being held in a maximum security state prison is not a normal occurrence, I think the defense team saw room to argue the unprecedented consequences of that. It's a distraction from the murders of two young girls and opened a lot of discussions about things unrelated to their deaths.

Maybe she should have allowed them in. Westville could have gone in and tidied things up a bit then showed the public what accommodating digs he had, blowing the defense right out of the water.

 

[CGBSpender]

In a way, it felt kind of like RA's defense team was putting Westville on trial, imo. I'm not taking a stance on that as a strategic move, but it certainly muddied the waters for a while. Since a pre-trial detainee being held in a maximum security state prison is not a normal occurrence, I think the defense team saw room to argue the unprecedented consequences of that. It's a distraction from the murders of two young girls and opened a lot of discussions about things unrelated to their deaths.

I think it was the only play they had. Trying to create some sort of record alleging unlawful acts by Westville lead to his condition, and thus caused an involuntary admission is not a great option for trying to set up an argument down the road that any alleged admission should not be admissible at trial...but it seems like the best/only option they have to try to deal with any unhelpful statements made by their client on the phone to his family in jail.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

The girls could be seen proceeding down the hill, and the video reportedly ends.

Huh?? The girls could be seen proceding down the hill or rather the grass/soil/bush or something similar at the ground could be seen, while they walked/climbed? If the girls were indeed seen, BG had the phone in his hand or what?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Huh?? The girls could be seen proceding down the hill or rather the grass/soil/bush or something similar at the ground could be seen, while they walked/climbed? If the girls were indeed seen, BG had the phone in his hand or what?

Maybe Libby stuck her phone somewhere on her person, where it recorded maybe just their feet? IDK

 

[M. Kay]

Delphi court docs: Richard Allen told wife he killed Libby German and Abby Williams; prosecutors believe knife was used in murders

There were inquiries at hardware/sporting goods about recent purchase of a specific "curved fishing knife" early on. Source was locals' mention of LE investigating. Could be reminding us now of "looking at fish from the high bridge"...

 

[mrjitty]

I think it was the only play they had. Trying to create some sort of record alleging unlawful acts by Westville lead to his condition, and thus caused an involuntary admission is not a great option for trying to set up an argument down the road that any alleged admission should not be admissible at trial...but it seems like the best/only option they have to try to deal with any unhelpful statements made by their client on the phone to his family in jail.

JMO

Agreed.

The admissions are could well be fatal to the defence case depending on their nature.

It is interesting that the whole idea of a bail hearing quietly got shelved - then we discovered he had admitted the crimes in a recording.

I guess the weak case against 'Rick' wasn't as weak as they thought. But of course they are doing the usual defence stuff of attacking the evidence.

 

[CGBSpender]

Agreed.

The admissions are could well be fatal to the defence case depending on their nature.

It is interesting that the whole idea of a bail hearing quietly got shelved - then we discovered he had admitted the crimes in a recording.

I guess the weak case against 'Rick' wasn't as weak as they thought. But of course they are doing the usual defence stuff of attacking the evidence.

I forgot about the bail hearing. I suppose they can't have it both ways...they have to pick: 1) tee up the record as best you can that the unlawful acts of law enforcement lead to your client's mental instability and thus the admissions were not voluntary and should be excluded at trial; or 2) argue your client is totally stable and there is no risk of flight and him not showing up for court if he is given a bail option....the defense had to pick their poison I suppose. Practically speaking too...whatever bail they could possibly get for him would likely be really high, and it's probably unlikely he could figure out a way to post it anyway.

I feel like the defense team is doing a good job...which is a good thing for everyone involved. No one wins by leaving the door open for ineffective assistance of counsel arguments on appeal.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

There were inquiries at hardware/sporting goods about recent purchase of a specific "curved fishing knife" early on. Source was locals' mention of LE investigating. Could be reminding us now of "looking at fish from the high bridge"...

That's interesting, I had not heard of it referred to as having to do with fishing specifically. The knife thing is very confusing to me. On one hand I was thinking that they must not have recovered the murder weapon, otherwise why would they be looking for actual knives in search warrants? But if they didn't recover the weapon used, then how would they be able to know to look for purchases of such a specific model of knife? Maybe there was a knife left at the scene, but it was not the actual murder weapon...maybe part of the staging or something?

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

Near the end of the video a male is seen and heard telling the girls, "Guys, Down the hill." (See Motion for leave of Court To Subpoena Third-Party Records).

I just picked up on this...why not release a still of the view of the male at the end of the video...which I presume would be a closer view of some or all of the male than what they did release? Is it because the view at the end gave them a good look at some piece of evidence that the male was wearing or carrying....and LE didn't want to risk the killer getting rid of the item(s) before they caught him?

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

In the Affidavit for Search Warrant they stated that it was determined that articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene, including a pair of underwear and a sock. No women's stuff was taken in the search, other than the possible gray winter hat with fur-like fibers and the headbands. Neither of the girls were said to be wearing a hat when they were dropped off at the bridge.

The affidavit included the word "clothing" so could that have covered any article of clothing they may have wanted to take?

Pg 110

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[Megnut]

Near the end of the video a male is seen and heard telling the girls, "Guys, Down the hill." (See Motion for leave of Court To Subpoena Third-Party Records).

I just picked up on this...why not release a still of the view of the male at the end of the video...which I presume would be a closer view of some or all of the male than what they did release? Is it because the view at the end gave them a good look at some piece of evidence that the male was wearing or carrying....and LE didn't want to risk the killer getting rid of the item(s) before they caught him?

JMO

This.

IMO there was no closer video that didn't include the girls. LE wanted tipsters to identify the man on the bridge as a person they wanted to talk to and not reveal he was the abductor. Until they decided to release the audio, a calculation between needing tips balanced against the risk.

One wonders how RA handled those releases. "That was me"? "Yes, I was there. I didn't see the girls though"?

Imagine that moment in an interview room. "Yes, I was there. That's me. I passed by three juveniles. I crossed the bridge. I never saw two girls." And the interrogator asks, "Are you SURE about that? As he fires up the video, showing BG walk right up into the girls, speaking GDTH and forcing them down the hill.

I don't think LE ever wanted to show their hand with the video but IMO they needed help identifying him.

Crazy it wasn't enough.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I tend to imagine that the October 2022 interview went like this:
LE knew they had a witness that put BG on the first platform of the MHB just minutes before the girls got there. RA knew none of this.
Then RA admitted to being dressed like BG that day.
Then RA admitted to being on the bridge at the first platform watching fish.
Then the investigators smiled quietly to themselves…

 

[M. Kay]

But if they didn't recover the weapon used, then how would they be able to know to look for purchases of such a specific model of knife? Maybe there was a knife left at the scene, but it was not the actual murder weapon...maybe part of the staging or something?

JMO

Perhaps the nature of the wounds; cause of death, not the staging.

 

[mrjitty]

I tend to imagine that the October 2022 interview went like this:
LE knew they had a witness that put BG on the first platform of the MHB just minutes before the girls got there. RA knew none of this.
Then RA admitted to being dressed like BG that day.
Then RA admitted to being on the bridge at the first platform watching fish.
Then the investigators smiled quietly to themselves…

BIB

Yeah I think he got rolled in the interview. Admitting to see the 3 girls is fatal to his defence once you factor in trail woman. Him not seeing trail woman is a disaster. But he didn't know he needed to account for that some way

 

[Megnut]

BIB

Yeah I think he got rolled in the interview. Admitting to see the 3 girls is fatal to his defence once you factor in trail woman. Him not seeing trail woman is a disaster. But he didn't know he needed to account for that some way

I'm curious about the path that lady intended to take that day. Did she turn around as planned or did she turn around because she spotted a man on the bridge?

Perhaps RA never saw her, she just saw him.

Of course, RA might have copped to being on the platform, looking at fish or his stock ticker, because he knew he'd been seen by a lady... but is it possible that he was presplaining to account for the video release? As if he was so engrossed in fishy stocks, he didn't see the girls pass by him? Makes no sense.

For sure what's a major problem for him is that he puts himself on the bridge but denies seeing the girls. There was no way for him not to have.

Only one reason to deny being the last person to see them.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm curious about the path that lady intended to take that day. Did she turn around as planned or did she turn around because she spotted a man on the bridge?

Perhaps RA never saw her, she just saw him.

Of course, RA might have copped to being on the platform, looking at fish or his stock ticker, because he knew he'd been seen by a lady... but is it possible that he was presplaining to account for the video release? As if he was so engrossed in fishy stocks, he didn't see the girls pass by him? Makes no sense.

For sure what's a major problem for him is that he puts himself on the bridge but denies seeing the girls. There was no way for him not to have.

Only one reason to deny being the last person to see them.

JMO

And not only does RA admit to seeing the young teens, he also recalls the number of teen and that 'one was tall' and 'one had brown hair'. Pretty hard to gather that much info if you're checking your stock ticker.

Stick a fork in RA, he's DONE.

ALL MOO

 

[TL4S]

And not only does RA admit to seeing the young teens, he also recalls the number of teen and that 'one was tall' and 'one had brown hair'. Pretty hard to gather that much info if you're checking your stock ticker.

Stick a fork in RA, he's DONE.

ALL MOO

You know, now that you said this, something just suddenly dawned on me. We've always heard about the "three juvenile witnesses," but with the documents release, we now know there were four juveniles that day. The one witness saw four on the FB, and in some of the documents, it's referenced how three of the four juveniles were interviewed. So why didn't RA see four juveniles? I wonder if one was not right with the group at the time, maybe ahead on the bridge or something?


<ADMIN NOTE: Attachment removed due to names of minors not redacted. Redacted version is found at the following link. If names are known, please only use initials:>

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[FromGermany1]

That's interesting, I had not heard of it referred to as having to do with fishing specifically. The knife thing is very confusing to me. On one hand I was thinking that they must not have recovered the murder weapon, otherwise why would they be looking for actual knives in search warrants? But if they didn't recover the weapon used, then how would they be able to know to look for purchases of such a specific model of knife? Maybe there was a knife left at the scene, but it was not the actual murder weapon...maybe part of the staging or something?

JMO

Which killer does purchase a new fish-knife for his killing mission? I think, he didn't plan it to use for fish in mid February.

 

[TL4S]

The juveniles are interesting. Why was BW interviewed in 2020? Was that a first or follow-up interview, and why not until 2020? This would have been after the 2019 sketch switch.

<ADMIN NOTE: Screenshot removed>

And why was the fourth juvenile not interviewed? Was she even asked if she saw anything? If she hadn't, was that why they didn't do an official interview? Did her parents not give permission, possibly? The bench referred to in this photo is about .2 miles from the FB, and google maps shows about a 3 minute walk. They were near that bench within the minute RA's car drove past HH going west. By my calculations, most likely when the girls saw RA, it would have been very near the FB or the open area around it. How could RA not have seen the 4th girl, even if she was way ahead and on the FB? Maybe if his head was down and he wasn't looking around at all? It's mentioned at least 3 times in the document about "3 of the 4 girls." I just find this whole thing odd. And I'd still like to know who saw a young man with lots of wavy hair and clean shaven (YBG).