IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[Yemelyan]

Is it possible to tell it was that specific type of knife was used from seeing wounds...to the point they can go looking for recent purchases without it being like searching for a needle in a haystack? I guess I was thinking that at most they could tell single vs. double edge...and serrated vs plain edge...and length maybe...but that wounds wouldn't get them enough to know what exact knife to search for?

JMO

If the knife contacts bone and leaves a mark, they will have more information than if it only left a soft tissue wound.

Not enough info to know specific manufacturer or exact model IMO, but they may be able to get into the ballpark of type of blade, and then use that general information when they canvass for recent purchases.

And if they did recover a knife during a search that they suspected was the weapon, they would likely be able to test and either match or eliminate forensically, if cuts on any bones are present. If you are familiar with the trial of Chandler Halderson (who dismembered his parents), there was extensive testimony on the forensic process by which they matched blades from saws, knives, and hatchets in the home to bone cutmarks that is very informative on this issue.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If the knife contacts bone and leaves a mark, they will have more information than if it only left a soft tissue wound.

Not enough info to know specific manufacturer or exact model IMO, but they may be able to get into the ballpark of type of blade, and then use that general information when they canvass for recent purchases.

And if they did recover a knife during a search that they suspected was the weapon, they would likely be able to test and either match or eliminate forensically, if cuts on any bones are present. If you are familiar with the trial of Chandler Halderson (who dismembered his parents), there was extensive testimony on the forensic process by which they matched blades from saws, knives, and hatchets in the home to bone cutmarks that is very informative on this issue.

True, and if it was such a bloody crime scene there may have been some DNA left on the knife (if the murder weapon was recovered) even though it had been cleaned.

Sometimes it seeps into the handle and rivets and they can find DNA even after years. I wonder if that wouldn't have been in PCA? Maybe it's something LE wanted to hold back.

Gosh I hate typing this.

 

[M. Kay]

CGBSpender said:
"Is it possible to tell it was that specific type of knife was used from seeing wounds...to the point they can go looking for recent purchases without it being like searching for a needle in a haystack?"
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Maybe in a town the size of Delphi the metaphor isn't as apt. They were searching for purchases, not necessarily for a knife to commit a crime. Maybe someone purchased a fish-cleaning knife for its purpose and then re-purposed it. *This was local talk very early on when FBI was noticeable presence.

 

[CGBSpender]

CGBSpender said:
"Is it possible to tell it was that specific type of knife was used from seeing wounds...to the point they can go looking for recent purchases without it being like searching for a needle in a haystack?"
-----------------------------------------
Maybe in a town the size of Delphi the metaphor isn't as apt. They were searching for purchases, not necessarily for a knife to commit a crime. Maybe someone purchased a fish-cleaning knife for its purpose and then re-purposed it. *This was local talk very early on when FBI was noticeable presence.

Interesting point. I wonder if the inquiry had nothing to do with the murder weapon at all in that case? Perhaps a person of interest told LE they purchased a fishing knife at Store XYZ at the time of the crime, and the receipt/purchase was being sought to corroborate an alibi?

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

If the killer was seen at approximately 3:57pm walking west on the north side of 300 N, presumably back to their car, then how did they avoid the surveillance camera at the Hoosier Harveststore? If they went back onto the trail to avoid the surveillance camera, then how did they avoid Liberty German's father or the flannel shirt guy? If the killer passed either of those two people on the trail would they not notice he was "muddy and bloody"?

I know Richard Allen confessed, but I wonder about the answer to these questions anyway.

I've often wondered about that too...and well...maybe the killer didn't avoid the HH camera, and LE is simply holding that info back for some reason? If this evidence were to exist...seeing the killer walking west on the north side of 300 might have added support to running the FBI billboard campaign...in the event the killer was in fact a hitch hiker?

The family, if they saw someone on the north side of the road walking west, might not have paid much attention...they were just looking for two girls lost in the woods at that point and focused on talking to people on the trails I suspect...being on the lookout for someone that harmed the girls was probably the furthest thing from their minds.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

If he had planned on killing them, you would think he would have had an exit strategy other than going out on the road.

One of GH's videos showed a possible route he could have taken through the woods and missed L's dad and FSG.

 

[CGBSpender]

If he had planned on killing them, you would think he would have had an exit strategy other than going out on the road.

One of GH's videos showed a possible route he could have taken through the woods and missed L's dad and FSG.

What are the chances the killer knew the HH building had a camera? I'll take it one step further, if he knew...what are the chances that he would he be arrogant enough to walk by said camera intentionally with his thumb in the air pretending to hitch hike in an effort to misdirect LE lol?

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

If he had planned on killing them, you would think he would have had an exit strategy other than going out on the road.

One of GH's videos showed a possible route he could have taken through the woods and missed L's dad and FSG.

I think RA got caught up in the sick and twisted moment and freaked when he heard people calling out for the girls. If the scene was posed or staged as suggested, I can imagine him losing track of time.

MOO

#Justice4Abby&Libby

 

[FrostedGlass]

What are the chances the killer knew the HH building had a camera? I'll take it one step further, if he knew...what are the chances that he would he be arrogant enough to walk by said camera intentionally with his thumb in the air pretending to hitch hike in an effort to misdirect LE lol?

JMO

I'm of the mind that anything is possible in this case but it seems like he'd have to be in a mental state to go out on the road. Although, the chance of being identified by a passing car versus coming face-to-face and having to explain the mud and blood may have been his preferred option.

 

[girlhasnoname]

DBM - Wrong thread

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think RA got caught up in the sick and twisted moment and freaked when he heard people calling out for the girls. If the scene was posed or staged as suggested, I can imagine him losing track of time.

MOO

#Justice4Abby&Libby

I went through old videos trying to find out exactly when the family members arrived at the bridge. So far, I think DG was the only one calling out for the girls when RA was said to be seen on the road. We've never heard exactly where he was when seen. He could have stayed in the tree line for a large part of the way.

It still makes no sense to me at all why he was on the north side of the road.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I went through old videos trying to find out exactly when the family members arrived at the bridge. So far, I think DG was the only one calling out for the girls when RA was said to be seen on the road. We've never heard exactly where he was when seen. He could have stayed in the tree line for a large part of the way.

It still makes no sense to me at all why he was on the north side of the road.

He was coming from RL's property line back to get his car. IMO

 

[TL4S]

I have my suspicions that perhaps the car in question (allegedly RA's) was captured after the murders, even though it isn't mentioned in the PCA. From the documents:


So, LE identified other people on the trails or CR 300 N between 2:30 and 4:11 pm. But we already know there were other people on the trail after 4:11, too, because the girls' families were there searching. So why use 4:11 as a cutoff? If "muddy and bloody" was seen by a witness along CR 300 N at 3:57 pm, that gives 14 minutes for "muddy and bloody" to walk back to his car, get in, and drive back east the way he came, going past HH at 4:11pm. Alternatively, he could have been captured on another camera if he left a different way. JMO.

 

[TL4S]

I went through old videos trying to find out exactly when the family members arrived at the bridge. So far, I think DG was the only one calling out for the girls when RA was said to be seen on the road. We've never heard exactly where he was when seen. He could have stayed in the tree line for a large part of the way.

It still makes no sense to me at all why he was on the north side of the road.

Him being on the north side of the road is the most curious thing about that statement to me. If he was seriously walking along the road, he might have crossed to avoid the Mears trail parking lot, or avoid walking right in front of the house on the south side of the road between HH and the CPS lot. I would presume the crop was cut for the winter along the north side of the road, so he couldn't use it as cover, but I still think it's possible he walked in the farmground behind HH to avoid the trails, road, and cameras (if he was aware of them). I just have my doubts he blatantly walked along the road from somewhere near the cemetery all the way back to his car. JMO. But, one way or another, he had to reenter the road near the CPS lot in order to get to his car.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I have my suspicions that perhaps the car in question (allegedly RA's) was captured after the murders, even though it isn't mentioned in the PCA. From the documents:

View attachment 436856
So, LE identified other people on the trails or CR 300 N between 2:30 and 4:11 pm. But we already know there were other people on the trail after 4:11, too, because the girls' families were there searching. So why use 4:11 as a cutoff? If "muddy and bloody" was seen by a witness along CR 300 N at 3:57 pm, that gives 14 minutes for "muddy and bloody" to walk back to his car, get in, and drive back east the way he came, going past HH at 4:11pm. Alternatively, he could have been captured on another camera if he left a different way. JMO.

I don't know what to make of their timelines. I remember Shay Hughes, on MS podcast, saying prosecution would need to tighten up their timeline; I'm thinking: "Which one?"

While I was looking for the time when the family arrived, I came across BP's and KG's accounts of what time KG arrived with the girls. Both of them put the girls on the trail by 1:38 p.m. and watched until they were into the trailhead. Walking Woman's car was seen on HH cam at 1:46 p.m.

Gray Hughes vid with BP

 

[Falling Down]

I went through old videos trying to find out exactly when the family members arrived at the bridge. So far, I think DG was the only one calling out for the girls when RA was said to be seen on the road. We've never heard exactly where he was when seen. He could have stayed in the tree line for a large part of the way.

It still makes no sense to me at all why he was on the north side of the road.

I have a sneaking suspicion the individual allegedly seen around 3:57 missed being seen by others, by mere minutes.

In some GH videos where family members were interviewed, folks said family and friends started arriving to search from 4PM onwards. LE were called by Mike P. at around 5:30PM.

JMO

 

[Emilie D]

True, and if it was such a bloody crime scene there may have been some DNA left on the knife (if the murder weapon was recovered) even though it had been cleaned.

Sometimes it seeps into the handle and rivets and they can find DNA even after years. I wonder if that wouldn't have been in PCA? Maybe it's something LE wanted to hold back.

Gosh I hate typing this.

They also might have his dna from a knife wound as well. Blood is slippery. When stabbing someone a suspects hand can slip causing them to accidentally cut themselves on the blade leaving their blood mixed with the victims and at the scene. I hate writing this too. This case horrifies me. I hate when it’s children.

 

[Barbieshell]

They also might have his dna from a knife wound as well. Blood is slippery. When stabbing someone a suspects hand can slip causing them to accidentally cut themselves on the blade leaving their blood mixed with the victims and at the scene. I hate writing this too. This case horrifies me. I hate when it’s children.

Unless the knife had a hilt, all we can hope for is that it didn't.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Is RA's next court appearance still Nov 22nd?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Is RA's next court appearance still Nov 22nd?

No. There's nothing until his trial date. Are you looking at Nov 22, 2022?