IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[CGBSpender]

How is an admission not the same as a confession?

Delphi documents: Richard Allen told wife he killed girls; investigators believe knife used in murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Documents unsealed Wednesday in the 2017 Delphi murders provide new insight into the case against Richard Allen. They also reveal for the first time publicly how investigators believ…

fox59.com

“Investigators had the phone call transcribed and the transcription confirms that Richard Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German,” the document said. “He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses as charged.”

I went back and looked at the text of the State's Objection, and the statements read as follows:

"8. That the Defendant has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times while talking to his wife and his mother on the public jail phones available at the Indiana Department of Corrections."
"9. That the State believes that these admissions are going to be challenged by the Defense because of a lack of competency of the Defendant."

I may be wrong, but when I see the term "admitted/admissions" used instead of "confessed/confessions", it makes me think that he "admitted" to certain elements of the crime, and that those admissions may be admissible to prove guilt at trial...as opposed to a confession, which I interpret to be an acknowledgement of guilt as to all elements of the crime.

I could totally be misinterpreting the intent of that part of the State's Objection though, and it may be just as you said.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

By the time this case comes to trial we’ll all be traveling around in those flying cars we’ve been waiting for so long.
I guess I was spoiled by Alex Murdaugh’s speedy trial, which he demanded as his right.
I don’t know why everything is moving like molasses. I suspect Judge Gull, who seems thoughtful and on top of things, has too many trials assigned to her.

It's going to be a while likely. It will take quite a bit of time for Defense counsel to go through all of the pages of discovery they have probably been receiving. They will need to secure experts, and file pretrial motions after analysis of the discovery. This will be a sizable undertaking in terms of preparation for everyone involved, and keeping in mind that the Defense, Prosecution and Judge all have other cases in process that they are working on as well at the same time.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I went back and looked at the text of the State's Objection, and the statements read as follows:

"8. That the Defendant has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times while talking to his wife and his mother on the public jail phones available at the Indiana Department of Corrections."
"9. That the State believes that these admissions are going to be challenged by the Defense because of a lack of competency of the Defendant."

I may be wrong, but when I see the term "admitted/admissions" used instead of "confessed/confessions", it makes me think that he "admitted" to certain elements of the crime, and that those admissions may be admissible to prove guilt at trial...as opposed to a confession, which I interpret to be an acknowledgement of guilt as to all elements of the crime.

I could totally be misinterpreting the intent of that part of the State's Objection though, and it may be just as you said.

JMO

Even his defence is not discounting his admissions.

Prosecutor: Richard Allen ‘confessed 5 or 6 times’ to Delphi murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Prosecutor Nick McLeland said in court Thursday that Richard Allen “confessed five or six times” that he killed best friends Abby Williams and Libby German on remote hist…

fox59.com

“He made multiple confessions to multiple people,” McLeland said on Thursday.

Richard Allen’s defense attorney acknowledged “incriminating statements” made by Allen but attributed the comments to his client’s deteriorating mental state.

“He has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the crime,” said Allen’s defense attorney, Bradley Rozzi…..”

 

[CGBSpender]

Even his defence is not discounting his admissions.

Prosecutor: Richard Allen ‘confessed 5 or 6 times’ to Delphi murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Prosecutor Nick McLeland said in court Thursday that Richard Allen “confessed five or six times” that he killed best friends Abby Williams and Libby German on remote hist…

fox59.com

“He made multiple confessions to multiple people,” McLeland said on Thursday.

Richard Allen’s defense attorney acknowledged “incriminating statements” made by Allen but attributed the comments to his client’s deteriorating mental state.

“He has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the crime,” said Allen’s defense attorney, Bradley Rozzi…..”

I don't doubt that he made admissions, it is just unclear to me whether or not the admissions cover all of the elements of the crime in which he has been charged...or just some of those elements.

JMO

 

[Justice101]

I went back and looked at the text of the State's Objection, and the statements read as follows:

"8. That the Defendant has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times while talking to his wife and his mother on the public jail phones available at the Indiana Department of Corrections."
"9. That the State believes that these admissions are going to be challenged by the Defense because of a lack of competency of the Defendant."

I may be wrong, but when I see the term "admitted/admissions" used instead of "confessed/confessions", it makes me think that he "admitted" to certain elements of the crime, and that those admissions may be admissible to prove guilt at trial...as opposed to a confession, which I interpret to be an acknowledgement of guilt as to all elements of the crime.

I could totally be misinterpreting the intent of that part of the State's Objection though, and it may be just as you said.

JMO

A confession is a written and signed paper.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't doubt that he made admissions, it is just unclear to me whether or not the admissions cover all of the elements of the crime in which he has been charged...or just some of those elements.

JMO

From your post #947….”That the Defendant has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times…”

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't doubt that he made admissions, it is just unclear to me whether or not the admissions cover all of the elements of the crime in which he has been charged...or just some of those elements.

JMO

Pretty sure this amounts to an admission/confession to felony murder and kidnapping:

Prosecutor Nick McLeland said in court Thursday that Richard Allen “confessed five or six times” that he killed best friends Abby Williams and Libby German on remote historic trail in Delphi in February 2017.

“He made multiple confessions to multiple people,” McLeland said on Thursday.

MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

It's going to be a while likely. It will take quite a bit of time for Defense counsel to go through all of the pages of discovery they have probably been receiving. They will need to secure experts, and file pretrial motions after analysis of the discovery. This will be a sizable undertaking in terms of preparation for everyone involved, and keeping in mind that the Defense, Prosecution and Judge all have other cases in process that they are working on as well at the same time.

JMO

Considering he has confessed, according to both the prosecution and defense, time spent in plea negotiations would seem to be better spent.
I know trials can take time but no one involved with this case seems interested at all in moving things along.
I’ll just mention that Alex Murdaugh killed his wife and son in June of 2021, was charged in the summer of 2022, requested a speedy trial per his right, the prosecution agreed and the trial began in January 2023. A very complex trial with a myriad of evidence and witnesses. The SC judiciary found a way to free up judges. The State Attorney General’s office found time to organize and present a mountain of evidence though they had other cases going on. And the defense had no complaints before presenting their vigorous but flawed defense.

 

[FromGermany1]

I don't doubt that he made admissions, it is just unclear to me whether or not the admissions cover all of the elements of the crime in which he has been charged...or just some of those elements.

JMO

I read several times, that he confessed/admitted/made confession to the murders as charged. "As charged" was almost always specifically attached.

 

[tlcya]

I went back and looked at the text of the State's Objection, and the statements read as follows:

"8. That the Defendant has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times while talking to his wife and his mother on the public jail phones available at the Indiana Department of Corrections."
"9. That the State believes that these admissions are going to be challenged by the Defense because of a lack of competency of the Defendant."

I may be wrong, but when I see the term "admitted/admissions" used instead of "confessed/confessions", it makes me think that he "admitted" to certain elements of the crime, and that those admissions may be admissible to prove guilt at trial...as opposed to a confession, which I interpret to be an acknowledgement of guilt as to all elements of the crime.

I could totally be misinterpreting the intent of that part of the State's Objection though, and it may be just as you said.

JMO

gave me food or thought. Found the following about the distinction:

Look no further than State v. Barbero, 297 Or.App. 372 (2019). An admission is a statement made for some purpose other than to acknowledge guilt. A confession is an acknowledgement of guilt made by a person after an offense has been committed.
[snip]
The distinction is legally relevant.

A confession alone is not sufficient to support a conviction for a crime. There must be some additional evidence, other than the confession, from which you may draw an inference that tends to establish or prove that a crime has been committed. When the state presents evidence of a confession at trial, the defense is entitled to a jury instruction about that. When the state presents evidence of an admission, however, the instruction is not given.

Fun fact: in theory, an admission can corroborate a confession. So a person’s statements to the police, standing alone, can support a conviction, at least in theory.
What is the difference between in an admission and a confession?

the case law cited at the link above can be found below and is very interesting in that the distinction between confession and admission can affect if a jury receives any special instruction about it or not. I did not know that. I learn something new every day.
State v. Barbero, 297 Or. App. 372 | Casetext Search + Citator

 

[CGBSpender]

Considering he has confessed, according to both the prosecution and defense, time spent in plea negotiations would seem to be better spent.
I know trials can take time but no one involved with this case seems interested at all in moving things along.
I’ll just mention that Alex Murdaugh killed his wife and son in June of 2021, was charged in the summer of 2022, requested a speedy trial per his right, the prosecution agreed and the trial began in January 2023. A very complex trial with a myriad of evidence and witnesses. The SC judiciary found a way to free up judges. The State Attorney General’s office found time to organize and present a mountain of evidence though they had other cases going on. And the defense had no complaints before presenting their vigorous but flawed defense.

This is true. It's a roll of the dice I suppose...speedy trial means the State has less time to prepare its case, but then so does the Defense. If the Defendant has retained counsel as opposed to Court appointed, they could probably mitigate some of those risks I suppose by adding whatever resources are needed at whatever cost. Speedy can also mean more potential for mistakes, and thus possibly more avenues for appeal.

The case that you mention...I suspect that guy also probably knew he was going to take the case to trial from the beginning, so his team was likely prepping for trial from day one...negotiating a plea deal was probably never on the table for his team. I also would not be surprised if that individual also (similar to OJ) had an appellate specialist sitting in the courtroom throughout the trial taking notes in anticipation of an appeal(s).

Remember though, they need leverage to negotiate a plea deal. This will probably require them to go through all of the discovery looking for warts in the State's case that they can use for leverage in negotiations. They lost some bargaining power when their client said whatever he said on the phone to his family...so they have their work cut out for them and will need some time to come up with some arguments that convince the State to cut a deal that their client is willing to accept.
JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

From your post #947….”That the Defendant has admitted that he committed the offenses that he is charged with no less than 5 times…”

I'm probably overthinking it and splitting hairs...but I am withholding any conclusion until I see what the actual statements are that he made. I read that and think, okay...they are saying they think the admissions prove actus reus...but are they saying the admissions satisfy the required mens rea too? I'm picky about language and word choices, and the language of this particular document doesn't do it for me at this time.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm probably overthinking it and splitting hairs...but I am withholding any conclusion until I see what the actual statements are that he made. I read that and think, okay...they are saying they think the admissions prove actus reus...but are they saying the admissions satisfy the required mens rea too? I'm picky about language and word choices, and the language of this particular document doesn't do it for me at this time.

JMO

IMO it’s not so much the words he said as how the defence abruptly reacted in an attempt to undertake damage control, by creating a lot of smoke and mirrors in order to present an excuse for his admissions - a breakdown in his mental health caused by alleged poor conditions at Westville. Their attempt to mitigate proved unsuccessful, however valiant the defensive effort as it did attract attention.

But time will tell if/when the case goes to trial. It’s said a good defence team will never allow a client to plead guilty before they’ve thoroughly scrutinized and received all discovery.

The current silence surrounding this case could be significant if not meaningless. Regardless, considering all the chatter prior to an arrest, it’s now gone the opposite direction. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This is true. It's a roll of the dice I suppose...speedy trial means the State has less time to prepare its case, but then so does the Defense. If the Defendant has retained counsel as opposed to Court appointed, they could probably mitigate some of those risks I suppose by adding whatever resources are needed at whatever cost. Speedy can also mean more potential for mistakes, and thus possibly more avenues for appeal.

The case that you mention...I suspect that guy also probably knew he was going to take the case to trial from the beginning, so his team was likely prepping for trial from day one...negotiating a plea deal was probably never on the table for his team. I also would not be surprised if that individual also (similar to OJ) had an appellate specialist sitting in the courtroom throughout the trial taking notes in anticipation of an appeal(s).

Remember though, they need leverage to negotiate a plea deal. This will probably require them to go through all of the discovery looking for warts in the State's case that they can use for leverage in negotiations. They lost some bargaining power when their client said whatever he said on the phone to his family...so they have their work cut out for them and will need some time to come up with some arguments that convince the State to cut a deal that their client is willing to accept.
JMO

I admit that I am frustrated that now that an arrest has been made after almost six years it feels we are six years away from an actual trial.
I would disagree that the defense needs leverage to enter into plea negotiations. In most cases like this the negotiations are “we’ll plead guilty if you take the death penalty off the table”. That usually works. Saves the State money, saves the families the pain of a trial, saves the defendants life. If the death penalty wasn’t on the table, a simple guilty plea puts an end to it. RA has no leverage here. His multiple confessions are recorded. There is other evidence too, plenty of it.
The Alex Murdaugh trial was a huge trial with worldwide attention. I’m not sure how you missed it, but your suppositions about it are very wrong. It was not rushed or slipshod on either side.

 

[Justice101]

Even his defence is not discounting his admissions.

Prosecutor: Richard Allen ‘confessed 5 or 6 times’ to Delphi murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Prosecutor Nick McLeland said in court Thursday that Richard Allen “confessed five or six times” that he killed best friends Abby Williams and Libby German on remote hist…

fox59.com

“He made multiple confessions to multiple people,” McLeland said on Thursday.

Richard Allen’s defense attorney acknowledged “incriminating statements” made by Allen but attributed the comments to his client’s deteriorating mental state.

“He has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the crime,” said Allen’s defense attorney, Bradley Rozzi…..”

Mental state IS NOT mental illness... which I think would be required to throw out any verbal confessions.

 

[MistyWaters]

Mental state IS NOT mental illness... which I think would be required to throw out any verbal confessions.

They tried a little of everything, the ole spaghetti at the wall routine IMO.

“When Allen's attorneys visited him on Monday, he was "delusional" and showed signs of "schizophrenia," the motion reads.”

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's lawyers say he is enduring 'prisoner of war' conditions

Delphi, Indiana, murders suspect Richard Allen, who is accused of killing two girls in 2017, is enduring "prison of war"-like conditions behind bars, his lawyers say.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Justice101]

They tried a little of everything, the ole spaghetti at the wall routine IMO.

“When Allen's attorneys visited him on Monday, he was "delusional" and showed signs of "schizophrenia," the motion reads.”

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's lawyers say he is enduring 'prisoner of war' conditions

Delphi, Indiana, murders suspect Richard Allen, who is accused of killing two girls in 2017, is enduring "prison of war"-like conditions behind bars, his lawyers say.

www.foxnews.com

Well... attorneys are not Psychiatric doctors who are professionally qualified to diagnose.

 

[mrjitty]

Considering he has confessed, according to both the prosecution and defense, time spent in plea negotiations would seem to be better spent.
I know trials can take time but no one involved with this case seems interested at all in moving things along.
I’ll just mention that Alex Murdaugh killed his wife and son in June of 2021, was charged in the summer of 2022, requested a speedy trial per his right, the prosecution agreed and the trial began in January 2023. A very complex trial with a myriad of evidence and witnesses. The SC judiciary found a way to free up judges. The State Attorney General’s office found time to organize and present a mountain of evidence though they had other cases going on. And the defense had no complaints before presenting their vigorous but flawed defense.

BIB

I've said this all along. The defence has displayed low and now zero interest in getting their client out on bail.

That suggests to me, their case mostly depends on getting evidence chucked out, muddying the waters etc

 

[girlhasnoname]

BIB

I've said this all along. The defence has displayed low and now zero interest in getting their client out on bail.

That suggests to me, their case mostly depends on getting evidence chucked out, muddying the waters etc

I'm not impressed with the Defense lawyers, haven't been from the beginning. I don't believe they will get anything thrown out ultimately. They've been shot down time and again already.

They're arguing for 'Rick' (I hate that they use his first name when speaking of him) and that's their job. But RA really messed up his case by those admissions, no matter how they try and spin it. Not counting all of the other evidence, of which we aren't even fully aware of at this point.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

I admit that I am frustrated that now that an arrest has been made after almost six years it feels we are six years away from an actual trial.
I would disagree that the defense needs leverage to enter into plea negotiations. In most cases like this the negotiations are “we’ll plead guilty if you take the death penalty off the table”. That usually works. Saves the State money, saves the families the pain of a trial, saves the defendants life. If the death penalty wasn’t on the table, a simple guilty plea puts an end to it. RA has no leverage here. His multiple confessions are recorded. There is other evidence too, plenty of it.
The Alex Murdaugh trial was a huge trial with worldwide attention. I’m not sure how you missed it, but your suppositions about it are very wrong. It was not rushed or slipshod on either side.

True. But the death penalty isn't exactly on the table in this case. I could be wrong, but I believe the State would need to prove intent to kill in order for that to be an option in Indiana. I don't think they were confident that they have that element nailed down...if they did, IMO they wouldn't have charged him with Felony Murder. Depending on what comes back in their third party discovery though they may get more confident, it's hard to speculate on that one. I am still in the camp I guess that anything is possible with this case...possibly even one or more perps.

I have a young child so unfortunately, I haven't been able to find time to sneek away and catch up on the Murdaugh trial on YT lol. If you've got questions about Bluey or Superkitties though fire away haha! The Delphi case is pretty much the only one I've been following quite closely.

JMO