IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

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This might not be the most plausible theory but I’ll share.

What if RA took off running when he realized people were looking for the girls or Libby’s phone was ringing (presumably on vibrate)? I know a lot of people, even avid outdoorsman who have no sense of direction in the woods. Maybe all of his extra time was spent trying to find his way back to the road.

I assume he crossed to the north side of the road to avoid the parking lot where the girls were dropped off because he may not have known whether the person who dropped them off was waiting for them there or not. I also think he may have then crossed back to the south side to get walk in the tree line on his way back to his car.

JMO moo and all that
 
This might not be the most plausible theory but I’ll share.

What if RA took off running when he realized people were looking for the girls or Libby’s phone was ringing (presumably on vibrate)? I know a lot of people, even avid outdoorsman who have no sense of direction in the woods. Maybe all of his extra time was spent trying to find his way back to the road.

I assume he crossed to the north side of the road to avoid the parking lot where the girls were dropped off because he may not have known whether the person who dropped them off was waiting for them there or not. I also think he may have then crossed back to the south side to get walk in the tree line on his way back to his car.

JMO moo and all that

All perfectly plausible. Having walked and driven that area I know this, so to speak.

Brings to mind the killer had to know the area very well. The public and private property areas. Some disagree with my take on how well the killer knew the area in question, to me it's plainly obvious.

JMO
 
This might not be the most plausible theory but I’ll share.

What if RA took off running when he realized people were looking for the girls or Libby’s phone was ringing (presumably on vibrate)? I know a lot of people, even avid outdoorsman who have no sense of direction in the woods. Maybe all of his extra time was spent trying to find his way back to the road.

I assume he crossed to the north side of the road to avoid the parking lot where the girls were dropped off because he may not have known whether the person who dropped them off was waiting for them there or not. I also think he may have then crossed back to the south side to get walk in the tree line on his way back to his car.

JMO moo and all that

I think it's definitely possible. Sometimes when we (the public) start trying to "analyze" a crime, and especially when we don't have all the facts that LE has, we start trying to guess what RATIONAL reason a killer would have done this or that weird or seemingly unexplainable aspect of the crime. This post quite rightly points out that sometimes offender behavior does not come down to a rational reason - it could be fear, it could be excitement, it could be shock at what he has just done, but it could lead to an irrational decision like running in a random direction through the trees before calming down and trying to walk back to the car.
 
We should hear a lot before the trial. Has the judge even addressed all the motions that have been made?

Well - here are my notes from 6/13/23 forward - you can figure it out! :D

6/13/23: Petition filed. Verified request to prohibit public access to a court record. Objection filed. State's objection to defendant's motion for Order on continuing disclosure of defendant's mental health records. Objection filed. State's objection to defendant's Motion to Suppress. Motion in Limine regarding ballistics (to exclude from evidence) filed by defense attorneys Bradley Rozzi & Andrew Baldwin, representing Allen filed a "motion to limine regarding ballistics". This is a motion requesting ballistics evidence be thrown out from the trial. While the motion is sealed from public viewing, knowing the motion is related to ballistics raising questions due to the previously released probable cause affidavit that lead to Allen's arrest. That bullet was found to come from a gun belonging to Allen. Motions hearing on 6/15/23.
6/15/23 Update: Among the topics expected to be discussed in Thursday's hearing are: Defense's motion to throw out ballistics evidence in the case. Setting a trial date. A request to move Allen from a maximum security prison to a jail for mental and physical health reasons & expert witness approval. The Judge said she will not be deciding on a motion to dismiss key ballistic evidence today. The defense called their 4 witnesses to the stand to testify on moving Allen. Former Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby, Carroll County Sheriff’s Office, Max Baker, an intern for attorney Rozzi’s office, Gary Lewis from Westfield Correctional Facility. Cass County Sheriff Ed Shroder. The State called to the stand Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett & from the Westville Correctional Facility Captain John Galipeau.
Allen’s attorney said he made “incriminating statements,” linking him to the Delphi murders. The prosecutor agreed, saying that he made an “admission.” However, Allen’s attorney said that the incriminating statements couldn’t be trusted because of his current mental state. The State will be calling two witnesses after lunch. One or both witnesses will be testifying to ADMISSIONS OF GUILT allegedly made by RA while being detained. Prosecution & defense both referenced “incriminating statements” Allen allegedly made in prison. Prosecutor said Allen “confessed 5 or 6 times to killing the girls.” Defense team says the vague statements are inconsistent with Allen’s previous statements. The 'confessions' came from conversations that he had with people thru the tablet he uses.
for more info see posts #719 [pg 36], 721, 722, 726 to 729, 731 & 733, 735 & 737 [pg 37], 744, 745, 749, 753, 754, 756 & 769 [pg 38], 767 & 774 [pg 39], 787, 790 & 796 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-163.673635/page-40
Judge Gull decided Allen will be staying in Westville Correctional Facility. She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. The judge announced she will be unsealing multiple documents next week. The announcement comes after 13News appealed to both the judge & the Indiana Supreme Court Administration to release the documents that include multiple motions & filings in the case. A trial date for Allen has been set for January 8-26, 2024. Judge Gull approved several motions. The trial was set for January 8 through the 26. Also decided is that recording meetings with attorney in correctional facility will stop & medical records will be released to the legal team. Judge Gull told Allen’s defense that it sounded like they just wanted him moved to be convenience to them. She stated that the attorneys knew he was in Westville, when they were appointed the case & agreed. The State said they didn’t have any huge concern where Allen was placed. Their main request is that they want him held on no bond. Judge Gull advised that a Franks hearing notice must be filed before it will be set. This is in regarding the suppression hearing to hear expert testimony as it would have amounted to a Daubert hearing. A Franks hearing centers around the issue of whether or not LE lied in order to obtain a search warrant.
6/16/23: Ex Parte motion for Order authorizing expert at a public expense, incorporating memorandum in support filed by defense. 6/20/23: Motion to Quash subpoena or enter Protective Order filed by IN. Dept. of Correction. Appearance by attorneys Aaron M. Ridlen & Hannah M. Deters filed by IN. Dept. of Correction. 6/20/23: Document filed by Carroll County Sheriff's Dept.
5/18/23: (#36): Order set deadlines 5/18/23. Parties directed to file dismissal papers by 7/3/23. Joint Notice of settlement pursuant to Local Rule 16-1(g). By Magistrate Judge Andrew P. Rodovich on 5/18/23. 6/16/23: (#37): Motion: Stipulation to dismiss on 6/9/23. Joint stipulation to dismiss Carroll County, Leazenby, Liggett, only with prejudice by defendant. (#38): Opinion & Order. Order Striking Document. Set Deadlines Friday 6/16/23. The Court STRIKES the Stipulation of Dismissal with Prejudice as to Defendants Carroll County, Indiana & Tobias Leazenby, in his Individual Capacity & Official Capacity as Sheriff of Carroll County, Indiana, Only. The Court sets a deadline of 6/29/23 for either (1) the Plaintiff to file a second amended complaint pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 15(a)(2), to drop Defendants Carroll County, Indiana, Tobias Leazenby & Tony Liggett & to proceed only against the Carroll County Sheriff's Office or (2) the parties to file a stipulation of dismissal that includes Defendant Carroll County Sheriff's Office. Signed by Judge Theresa L. Springmann on 6/16/23.
6/22/23: Order Issued. Comes now the Court & having communicated with the parties on Defendant Allen's Motion for Order on Continuing Disclosure of Defendant's Mental Health Records, now grants said Motion & orders the Indiana DOC and/or any other departments, law enforcement agencies, and/or individuals assuming jurisdiction over the care & custody of Allen to release to Attorney Bradley A. Rozzi and/or Andrew Baldwin, upon the written request or either, any & all mental health records associated with Allen, without the necessity of the execution of consents and/or waivers by Defendant Allen or his agents. Order signed on 6/16/23 by Judge Frances Gull.
6/28/23: Order Issued by Judge F. Gull. The Court has reviewed the electronic file recently and discovered many pleadings and filings have been marked as sealed and confidential, and, therefore, unavailable to the public The Court has consulted with Counsel for the State of Indiana and the Defense and discovered the pleadings have been deemed confidential to comply with the Court Order dated December 2, 2022 which prohibits public comment, commonly referred to as the "Gag Order". Counsel agree with the Court that the public interest is best served by transparency, but that certain pleadings should remain sealed. Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remain sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses; that the Transport Orders previously entered (and future Orders) shall remain sealed for security purposes; and that the Defense Ex Parte Motions and related Orders shall remain sealed pursuant to long established case law. All other pleadings filed prior to the date of this Order shall be unsealed and available to the public, except for the pleadings explicitly mentioned in this paragraph. Future pleadings and filings that are to be confidential shall comply with Court rules. Further, the Court has consulted with the Clerk of the Carroll Circuit Court about the impact of this Order on her office and staff, and the public interest in the pleadings which are being made available. As hundreds of pages of documents are being unsealed, this may create obstacles to the Clerk and the public. To ease the burden on the Clerk of the Court, and to ensure accessibility, the Court will make copies of the now public pleadings available at allensuperiorcourt.us/Delphi. John McGauley, Allen Superior Court, Court Executive has created this page on the Court's website to make these pleadings easily accessible to the public, the media, and the parties. This link should be active within hours of the issuance of this Order.
6/29/23 Update: New court documents reveal Allen admits guilt in Delphi Murders. On April 3, 2023, Allen made a phone call to his wife Kathy Allen. In that phone call, Allen admits several times that he killed Abby & Libby. Investigators had the phone call transcribed & the transcription confirms that Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams & Liberty German. He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses (sic) as charged. His wife, Kathy Allen, ends the phone call abruptly." Information about Richard Allen's time in prison; -Alleged phone call admissions to his wife; -Cause of death of Libby & Abby. Documents also share for the first time that Abby & Libby died by homicide by "sharp object". There were also multiple pieces of clothing missing from the scene, including underwear & a sock. There is no mention of those items being recovered in any searches of property. During searches of Allen's property, numerous firearms, electronic devices & knives were seized as evidence. From the doc file, so it seems the defense Emergency Motion was a direct result of RA’s confessions to his wife. The property receipt of items collected from 1967 Whiteman Dr. Delphi, Indiana & from the car acquired Tt that property. See more info on post 308 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-164.681822/page-16
Per the court documents just released, Allen admitted to his wife several times in a on April 3, 2023 phone call that he killed Abby and Libby. His wife then hung up on him. After that, Allen began "acting strangely". He wet the legal papers left him by his attorneys and ate them! He stopped eating and sleeping. He stopped making phone calls to his wife.

6/29/23 Update: Motion for Order on visitation with inmate. Attorneys representing Allen have filed a court petition to speak with a convicted child molester who they say may be a “potential witness” in their client’s case. Attorneys Bradley Rozzi & Andrew Baldwin, the defense lawyers representing Allen in a Carroll County double murder trial, filed a motion Thursday asking the court to allow them to visit and speak with an Indiana inmate being housed at the same facility as their client.
7/5/23: Correspondence to/from court filed by Westville Correctional Inmate letter. 7/19/23: Order Issued. The Court, having reviewed the Indiana Dept. of Correction's Motion to Quash Subpoena or Enter Protective Order, now finds that Defendant's request is unreasonable & oppressive & beyond the scope of discovery. The Court, therefore, quashes the Subpoena & Request for Production to Non-Party issued by Counsel in May 19, 2023. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances. 7/19/23: Order Issued. The Court, having had this matter under advisement following a hearing, and having considered the evidence & the arguments of Counsel, now finds as follows: Defendant is currently incarcerated in the Westville Correctional Facility under a "safekeeping order" issued November 3, 2022. The Court Order states that the Court "FINDS that Defendant is an inmate awaiting trial & is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others." The evidence presented at the hearing on defendant's Motion to Reconsider did not support many of the allegations advanced by defendant counsel. In fact, the evidence presented demonstrated that the Defendant is treated more favorably than other inmates housed at the Westville Correctional Facility. In light of the evidence presented, the Court has reconsidered the original Safekeeping Order & finds it is reasonable & necessary to ensure the defendant's safety & to prevent serious bodily injury to himself. The Dept. of Correction has provided, and will continue to provide Defendant with the necessarily medical services, including any mental health services. If the Dept. of Correction believes a facility other than Westville is more appropriate, or more convenient. Along with Gull's order on the safekeeping motion, she also ruled Wednesday that the defense team could not go into the WCF to inspect Allen's cell, calling the desire to do so "unreasonable and oppressive, and beyond the scope of discovery." The Court is confident that the Dept. of Corrections will move the defendant accordingly. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances.


Some are some aren't.
 
By the time this case comes to trial we’ll all be traveling around in those flying cars we’ve been waiting for so long.
I guess I was spoiled by Alex Murdaugh’s speedy trial, which he demanded as his right.
I don’t know why everything is moving like molasses. I suspect Judge Gull, who seems thoughtful and on top of things, has too many trials assigned to her.
 
This might not be the most plausible theory but I’ll share.

What if RA took off running when he realized people were looking for the girls or Libby’s phone was ringing (presumably on vibrate)? I know a lot of people, even avid outdoorsman who have no sense of direction in the woods. Maybe all of his extra time was spent trying to find his way back to the road.

I assume he crossed to the north side of the road to avoid the parking lot where the girls were dropped off because he may not have known whether the person who dropped them off was waiting for them there or not. I also think he may have then crossed back to the south side to get walk in the tree line on his way back to his car.

JMO moo and all that
He lived about a mile from the trail and knew the trail very well. He probably had a decent sense of direction and knowing he was on the N side of the river, he would have known pretty easily IMO which general way to go.
 
I think it's definitely possible. Sometimes when we (the public) start trying to "analyze" a crime, and especially when we don't have all the facts that LE has, we start trying to guess what RATIONAL reason a killer would have done this or that weird or seemingly unexplainable aspect of the crime. This post quite rightly points out that sometimes offender behavior does not come down to a rational reason - it could be fear, it could be excitement, it could be shock at what he has just done, but it could lead to an irrational decision like running in a random direction through the trees before calming down and trying to walk back to the car.
This is well expressed. I attempted to post such 'reasoning' once and
yet did not get job done. IE, I'm not a murdering man, yet, at times when a planned situation went awry I've been 'rattled', thus not clear about best resolution; not thinking of some choices at all. My theories aren't as interesting to me as considerations of others' posted here tho something went wrong underneath the bridge and in investigating too.
 
This might not be the most plausible theory but I’ll share.

What if RA took off running when he realized people were looking for the girls or Libby’s phone was ringing (presumably on vibrate)? I know a lot of people, even avid outdoorsman who have no sense of direction in the woods. Maybe all of his extra time was spent trying to find his way back to the road.

I assume he crossed to the north side of the road to avoid the parking lot where the girls were dropped off because he may not have known whether the person who dropped them off was waiting for them there or not. I also think he may have then crossed back to the south side to get walk in the tree line on his way back to his car.

JMO moo and all that
I am choosing to believe (because the likelihood of what actually happened is disturbing) that the reason he was at the site so long is because he realized the round had come out of the gun and he spent over an hour looking through the forest floor for it.
 
I know it’s been mentioned here several times but what is the name of the podcast everyone references? I have a 21 hour drive and Want to listen to it. TIA
 
I know it’s been mentioned here several times but what is the name of the podcast everyone references? I have a 21 hour drive and Want to listen to it. TIA
The Murder Sheet

 
I think he walked back on the road because he didn't have time to blaze a trail through the woods and couldn't be spotted on the trails. Walking in the woods is noisy...sticks crunching, etc and if he was seen bloody and muddy in that situation it's game over. Remember it was February so not any leaf cover. It is also slow going. He had a wife returning from work and he needed to be clean and present. The road is probably not busy and maybe he didn't realize just how bloody and muddy he was and he took his chances while his adrenaline was up and his back against the wall.
 
It is said that he made "admissions"...which is not the same as a confession. We don't know anything about the admissions, so it is hard to say how they will affect the case.

JMO
I was referring to his call with his wife. It was recorded and transcribed. He also confessed to his mother, and that was caught as well. I mean, this guy can't shut up.

 
It is said that he made "admissions"...which is not the same as a confession. We don't know anything about the admissions, so it is hard to say how they will affect the case.

JMO
How is an admission not the same as a confession?

“Investigators had the phone call transcribed and the transcription confirms that Richard Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German,” the document said. “He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses as charged.”
 
How many times has this guy confessed already? Is this going to make it to trial?

Whether it makes it to trial is anybody’s guess. Time will tell. It might boil down to whether the defence believes the state’s evidence is adequate to convict him. If not, as the old adage goes, not guilty does not mean he’s innocent. JMO
 
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