schooling
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I wouldn't be surprised if RA's name wasn't already floating around either...pure speculation.
MOO
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166
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schooling
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Reminding me of The West Memphis 3 and all the folks that got caught up in the satanic panic and ritualistic killing nonsense.
Literally
So it going to be nothing but an attempt at some uncertainty in somebody.
Because it's a SODDI defense in advance, which is apparently the newest thing in defenses.
So it going to be nothing but an attempt at some uncertainty in somebody.
From what has been revealed about tips given that were not taken seriously, having to continue giving them to other agencies, from reports ( I have no documentation, other than tidbits in report about this odinism group operating in area and EARLY on the mentions in various threads on many crime sleuth sites about these individuals...) Did you find it odd that in the report one LE had to report what was said in his presence about spitting on the victim to another agency because of his concern that there was no interest in this guy saying that ? re: Elvis. Perhaps this was not SO CLEAR early on but it seems that people feel there was a lack of spotlight on certain people that needed to be carefully vetted. I also get the sad feeling that there is alot of fear of these people, perhaps some shared interests and views among LE? Prison employees?, I am just giving my opinion. I think I will leave it at that. I know that a plain old sleuther felt so compelled to report some of his digging and intel from those early on social media findings he found that he met resistance and apathy, and had to persevere...and ended up having the authorities come to him states away for the info much later.
Batgirl 2.0
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After reading the 136-page defense document, I couldn’t help but be reminded of the deputy who claims he was demoted over the Delphi investigation. Former Chief Thomas said that the crime was unique, and that there are experts out there who have dealt with that sort of thing. He claims that in the very first few weeks of the investigation that he wanted to bring in experts but that there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go that way.
fox59.com
Sheriff’s deputy claims demotion over Delphi murders investigation
CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victi…
fox59.com
"this crime is unique to this area" always wondered what he meant.....After reading the 136-page defense document, I couldn’t help but be reminded of the deputy who claims he was demoted over the Delphi investigation. Former Chief Thomas said that the crime was unique, and that there are experts out there who have dealt with that sort of thing. He claims that in the very first few weeks of the investigation that he wanted to bring in experts but that there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go that way.
Sheriff’s deputy claims demotion over Delphi murders investigation
CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victi…
I still don't understand that comment, even now. Unfortunately, there are guys like Richard Allen in many US towns and cities.
JMO,my perception early in the investigation was that LE and the townspeople had a really hard time coming to grips with the fact that the killer was from their own town, not some serial killer passing through or traveling out from the "big city". They all seemed to struggle with it for a long time.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
Taking his confessions w/a grain of salt unless he disclosed something solid. Need something of substance.... only the killer would know. moo
Ok, I read the whole thing and did try and catch up on comments here but probably missed some so I apologize in advance if I repeat points that were already made. I know quite a bit about the Vinlanders, have studied their group and its affiliates for years, and before I go into detail for the lengthy post: The chance of this being an organized ritual carried out in broad daylight by a Vinlander chapter is zero to none. No way.
The following is why:
Individual Vinlander members have been responsible for murdering other white people, including a white woman who was walking with a Black man on a date. But acts of arbitrary violence by more than one member have historically been against people in the communities they target, usually Black people or other people of color. An individual Vinlander sexually assaulting a white child, even murdering a white child wouldn't be all that surprising. Their ranks, like so many other white supremicist groups, are filled with abusers of every flavor. But their goal is to organize, recruit, build numbers, and further their ideology. Molesting, let alone murdering, white children isn't going to help further those goals, especially when their stated mission is to "stop eradication" of the white race.
Could an individual Vinlander - or more likely someone with similar ideology who spends a lot of time in the online spaces that these groups congregate in and post propaganda to- have carried out these crimes and then marked the scene with iconography associated with white supremicist groups? Absolutely. Could RA have lurked in some of these spaces? It's possible. For every card-carrying member of these groups there's a wide online audience that lurks and absorbs their content. Similar groups on Telegram or Gab might only have 100 actual vetted members but 3,000-5,000 subscribers to their channels.
The iconography that the defense claims was placed on or around the girls bodies is so prevalent on Gab that it's inescapable. "Alt-right" and fascist members often use these symbols in their profile photos and page headers without actually holding membership in heathen/pagan/Odinist neo-nazi groups.
I did also want to point out that a few things are being conflated- the Vinlanders are racist Odinists. Though many (possibly most at this point?) are, not all Odinists are racist. Likewise, some heathen nazis like Vinlanders are church members of the Asatru Folk Assembly, but not all are. And to further clarify, not all Asatru religious groups are racist. Unfortunately the organized arm of the religion has largely been taken over by White Supremicists, but there are long-established Asatru groups that have repeatedly denounced and disavowed the "Folkish" nazi sectors that have sprung up.
Finally- a note on the sacrifice angle. Yes many groups similar to the Vinlanders have violent, disturbing bonding rituals that often include animal sacrifice- usually goats. This is no secret, the groups use imagery from these events in their propaganda videos and still images, and members of slightly more extreme nazi groups (like the Base and Attomwaffen) have seen members sent to jail on animal cruelty charges based on these rituals which should give some indication of the depth of horror they entail. But animal sacrifice, or ritual violence against other human beings who they've repeatedly dehumanized is one thing. Ritual sacrifice of two young white girls by the Vinlanders? Absolutely not.
The following is why:
Individual Vinlander members have been responsible for murdering other white people, including a white woman who was walking with a Black man on a date. But acts of arbitrary violence by more than one member have historically been against people in the communities they target, usually Black people or other people of color. An individual Vinlander sexually assaulting a white child, even murdering a white child wouldn't be all that surprising. Their ranks, like so many other white supremicist groups, are filled with abusers of every flavor. But their goal is to organize, recruit, build numbers, and further their ideology. Molesting, let alone murdering, white children isn't going to help further those goals, especially when their stated mission is to "stop eradication" of the white race.
Could an individual Vinlander - or more likely someone with similar ideology who spends a lot of time in the online spaces that these groups congregate in and post propaganda to- have carried out these crimes and then marked the scene with iconography associated with white supremicist groups? Absolutely. Could RA have lurked in some of these spaces? It's possible. For every card-carrying member of these groups there's a wide online audience that lurks and absorbs their content. Similar groups on Telegram or Gab might only have 100 actual vetted members but 3,000-5,000 subscribers to their channels.
The iconography that the defense claims was placed on or around the girls bodies is so prevalent on Gab that it's inescapable. "Alt-right" and fascist members often use these symbols in their profile photos and page headers without actually holding membership in heathen/pagan/Odinist neo-nazi groups.
I did also want to point out that a few things are being conflated- the Vinlanders are racist Odinists. Though many (possibly most at this point?) are, not all Odinists are racist. Likewise, some heathen nazis like Vinlanders are church members of the Asatru Folk Assembly, but not all are. And to further clarify, not all Asatru religious groups are racist. Unfortunately the organized arm of the religion has largely been taken over by White Supremicists, but there are long-established Asatru groups that have repeatedly denounced and disavowed the "Folkish" nazi sectors that have sprung up.
Finally- a note on the sacrifice angle. Yes many groups similar to the Vinlanders have violent, disturbing bonding rituals that often include animal sacrifice- usually goats. This is no secret, the groups use imagery from these events in their propaganda videos and still images, and members of slightly more extreme nazi groups (like the Base and Attomwaffen) have seen members sent to jail on animal cruelty charges based on these rituals which should give some indication of the depth of horror they entail. But animal sacrifice, or ritual violence against other human beings who they've repeatedly dehumanized is one thing. Ritual sacrifice of two young white girls by the Vinlanders? Absolutely not.
mainemom376
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This. And I keep thinking about the “twist” that was referenced. This is part of an interview that has always bothered me. Now more than ever. JMO
Michael Stroup introduces himself to Sheriff Leazenby at the very beginning and @ 9:00 Leazenby says:
“This one’s just – it’s got a whole new – it’s got a twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.”
Prosecutor Ives said in the Scene of the Crime podcast (Episode 3):
“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. ... There is a lot of *unique facts there. Honestly, I’m shocked, and I promise you, police are shocked that it wasn’t solved in a day or two. The crime scene was physically strange, but that’s for the State Police to decide what to release."
* unique – the only one of its kind, unlike anything else.
I think it‘s quite possible that Ives may have been referring to the signatures.
Having audio and video were no doubt two of the things leading LE to believe that the case would be wrapped up quickly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something else, apart from DNA.
It's also possible that the “twist” was either something about the bodies or perhaps something found at the crime scene, but unfortunately, once again, all we can do is speculate.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
After reading the recent defense's filings, I'm reminded how it never made sense that Libby’s phone was left at the crime scene. The killer(s) simply forgot to grab it or thought it wasn't important enough to take? moo
I suspect there's something of substance there. This is a very big case, getting international media attention. They have a lot riding on it. The prosecution isn't going to (or shouldn't) reveal any more about their case until the trial. It's better to not to reveal your strategy to the defense before then. Keep them guessing.
Of course, that's why defense teams do this - to goad the prosecution into showing their hand, so to speak. They want to argue their case in the news media, where there's no judge to impose rules and to keep them honest.
pageantmom
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They knew about the cult back then too and it had already been looked into. Maybe the cult is unique to that area. I grew up in a midwestern small town with a cult who did creepy and evil things and it definitely was “unique to our area” since as far as I know no small towns around us had a cult of their own!
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
“My money is on an edged weapon. You’re not necessarily going to get that so much with a blunt type of weapon,” Morgan said. “Multiple, multiple deep stab wounds.”
The victims, according to the warrant, didn’t have any defense wounds, but some articles of clothing were taken from them and removed from the scene, while the killer placed the victims’ bodies in what investigators called a staged manner.
Director of Atlanta’s Cold Case Research Institute and Atlanta metro-area CSI, Sheryl McCollum, said she believes the killer likely “posed” the victims’ bodies, instead of staging, for a form of gratification.
“There is a difference between a scene that is staged and a scene that is posed,” McCollum said.
The victims, according to the warrant, didn’t have any defense wounds, but some articles of clothing were taken from them and removed from the scene, while the killer placed the victims’ bodies in what investigators called a staged manner.
Director of Atlanta’s Cold Case Research Institute and Atlanta metro-area CSI, Sheryl McCollum, said she believes the killer likely “posed” the victims’ bodies, instead of staging, for a form of gratification.
“There is a difference between a scene that is staged and a scene that is posed,” McCollum said.
May 18, 2022
Blood, Sex Staging, Fiber Evidence: Chilling New Details in Murder of Two Delphi Little Girls
Investigators think the bodies of slain Delphi girls, Abby Williams and Libby German, were staged and moved at the crime scene, court documents obtained by The Murder Sheet podcast revealed; the show’s founders joined Nancy Grace and her expert guests on Wednesday’s “Crime Stories” to discuss...www.crimeonline.com
Seems they’d be better off working up a mitigation case and working on a plea deal attempt to save his life. I can’t believe they are death qualified (and yes for true Death penalty lawyers LWOP is a huge victory).
If I filed something like this where I practice I’d get chewed out and never assigned another case. Unacceptable.The state probably won't respond to these allegations until the trial. By law, the defense is allowed to be somewhat untruthful in their filings. It's called "arguing in the alternative".
Argument in the alternative - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I've never heard of a judge allowing them to blatantly make a false statement about the prosecution, though. But they can phrase it in such a way that they're arguing various alternatives for who committed the crimes and why the state is accusing the wrong person.
A lot of judges don't allow this kind of thing. Many would issue a gag order. Recently this was done in the trials of the Wagner family who murdered 8 members of the Rhoden Family in Pike County, OH. Everyone here followed the pretrial phase of the first trial for years before ever hearing most of the details of the murders, evidence and crime scenes at trial.
Prosecutors seek gag order in case of Pike County matriarch and Rhoden family murders
Prosecutors have filed a motion to prevent Fredericka Wagner, the matriarch of a family accused in the execution-style killings of eight people in southern Ohio, from talking publicly about her case and the charges.www.cleveland.com
Even with the gag order, defense attorneys for Jake Wagner kept trying to talk about their version of events and evidence during pre-trial hearings.
I doubt the blood on her hands ect was because she fought, if so LE would have plenty of DNA evidence against someone.
You could reverse it and say the reason Abby was clean is because she was SA then cleaned in the water and redressed to hide it. I'm not saying that happened but it would fit with what we know.
**GRAPHIC**. It said that Abby died a slower death so she may not have bled as much as quickly as Libby did. Libby would have died instantly.
iamnotagolem
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I wonder if Libby dropped it intentionally and stepped on it to hide it. Then when she took off her shoe she left her shoe on top of the phone and RA simply never saw the phone and didn’t move Libby’s shoe when he killed Abby and didn’t realize there was a shoe and phone under Abby’s back or leg, since the defense mentioned both not really sure where the shoe & phone were.
O.Incandenza
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Great post.
Yeah, my personal opinion is that if there were in fact Nordic runes left at the crime scene then I could contemplate a scenario where 1 or 2 men (most likely 1) associated with, or at least aware of, the local Vinlanders participated in a sexually motivated killing and then incorporated some of the iconography of the group in the staging of the bodies. Either as a signature or as a misdirection. It certainly could have been RA who did that if he had been exposed to the runes before.
The broad reaching conspiracy involving the prison guards and all the men named in the defense memo seems incredibly unlikely to me. Though the fact that guards were wearing Odin patches at the prison (and I'll take that as almost a fact given multiple lawyers swearing to it in affidavits), seems incredibly inappropriate and reflects poorly on the prison staff.
But all of this speculation really starts with whether there even were Nordic runes at the crime scene and I don't think we know nearly enough to say either way at this point. At most we can say there were things that resembled runes closely enough that some LE thought it was worth investigating.
Another case followed here involved killers who displayed Odinist tattoos was the Wagner family who killed 8 members of the Rhoden family. Most of the family was religious and killed the Rhodens to gain custody of a child. They killed all the adults in each home, but left 2 infants and a toddler alive. They used false accusations of CSA against 2 estranged mothers to justify violent attempts to demand custody and were very proud of their “family values”.
It seemed a mix of the white supremacy, criminal culture, religion and local rural culture, though these groups are found in urban areas too. JMO.
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