IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[MistyWaters]

MS - Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?

Click - Yes, that is accurate.

I guess it really depends on if TC took MS's question at face value. But yes, the underlying current of the memorandum seems to be whether or not LE investigated these men enough. And like you said, if TC had been retired for over a year before RA was arrested, there could be a lot he doesn't know. It seems to me that when that arrested happened,TC had questions, and it makes sense he wanted to know about the evidence against RA at that point. According to the memorandum, it's possile after he met with JH and another detective, his questions were not answered to his satisfaction, but who knows. After all, no arrests were made as a result of TC's investigation.

To be clear, I'm comfortable skipping over all the Odinism stuff in the memorandum. I do not think this was a sacrifice, and I believe TC when he says no LE officers do, either. However, I can believe that TC thinks it's possible the responsible person happens to be an Odinist. Even if there was a signature left behind that hints at an Odinist belief, that does not automatically make the motive related to the killer's faith. JMO.

It makes me wonder how many other police officers from other municipalities know of possible suspects within their jurisdiction. Speaking out publicizes their names and if the possible suspect had been charged, places the officer in a prominent position of fame inside a high profile trial. Wouldn’t that be the dream of every officer in every police force - to be involved in a case whereby their name would become known, followed by books and TV interviews? Does it become sort of like a competition with longer term unsolved cases - who solves it, who gets to be the hero???

More than anything, what I really hate about following true crime is all the entry players and sideshows..…….sorry, for the rant, philosophical mood today.

 

[TL4S]

It makes me wonder how many other police officers from other municipalities know of possible suspects within their jurisdiction. Speaking out publicizes their names and if the possible suspect had been charged, places the officer in a prominent position of fame in a high profile trial. Wouldn’t that be the dream of every officer in every police force - to be involved in a case whereby their name would become known, followed by books and TV interviews? Does it become sort of like a competition with longer term unsolved cases - who solves it, who gets to be the hero???

More than anything, what I really hate about following true crime is all the entry players and sideshows..…….sorry, for the rant, philosophical mood today.

Something I'm very curious about is whether or not TC and the other detectives looking into the Rushville connection ever felt any of the witness statements applied to their suspects. TC read the PCA, and while the PCA doesn't include all the evidence, TC likely knew enough to recognize any omissions that we certainly cannot. So, why was he not satisfied with the RA PCA?

What seems so obviously damning to us in regards to the timeline, like RA putting himself on the bridge, the three females near FB, etc., wasn't enough for TC based on his knowledge of the case? Was there anything more damning against his suspects? Does he support RA as a suspect, but think others are involved? Or is he just mad his investigation didn't lead anywhere when he felt so sure it would?

I mean, we have no way of knowing any of this, which is why I'm curious.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Something I'm very curious about is whether or not TC and the other detectives looking into the Rushville connection ever felt any of the witness statements applied to their suspects. TC read the PCA, and while the PCA doesn't include all the evidence, TC likely knew enough to recognize any omissions that we certainly cannot. So, why was he not satisfied with the RA PCA?

What seems so obviously damning to us in regards to the timeline, like RA putting himself on the bridge, the three females near FB, etc., wasn't enough for TC based on his knowledge of the case? Was there anything more damning against his suspects? Does he support RA as a suspect, but think others are involved? Or is he just mad his investigation didn't lead anywhere when he felt so sure it would?

I mean, we have no way of knowing any of this, which is why I'm curious.

This part that you quoted previously kind of says how he feels, imo.

Wanting to allay his fears that an innocent man was sitting in Westville, Click agreed to
attend the meeting with Holeman hoping that he would be learning that evidence did in fact exist
linking Richard Allen to the murders. Click’s hopes were dashed. Paragraph 17 of Click’s
affidavit:

 

[MistyWaters]

Something I'm very curious about is whether or not TC and the other detectives looking into the Rushville connection ever felt any of the witness statements applied to their suspects. TC read the PCA, and while the PCA doesn't include all the evidence, TC likely knew enough to recognize any omissions that we certainly cannot. So, why was he not satisfied with the RA PCA?

What seems so obviously damning to us in regards to the timeline, like RA putting himself on the bridge, the three females near FB, etc., wasn't enough for TC based on his knowledge of the case? Was there anything more damning against his suspects? Does he support RA as a suspect, but think others are involved? Or is he just mad his investigation didn't lead anywhere when he felt so sure it would?

I mean, we have no way of knowing any of this, which is why I'm curious.

I’d think the extent of TC’s involvement would‘ve been providing tips to the task force based on the alleged confessions from various people associated with those four. Contacting your local PD was an option in the asking for tips. I really doubt if TC was privy to any inside investigative information associated with actual crime solving.

JMO it looks to me he might’ve been feeding RA’s defence with information but then became angered when he figured out they were just using him by taking his formation one step further into Odinland to account for the guards forcing RA’s confessions to his wife/mother.

 

[TL4S]

This part that you quoted previously kind of says how he feels, imo.

Wanting to allay his fears that an innocent man was sitting in Westville, Click agreed to
attend the meeting with Holeman hoping that he would be learning that evidence did in fact exist
linking Richard Allen to the murders. Click’s hopes were dashed. Paragraph 17 of Click’s
affidavit:

I think that specific line was embellishment on the D's part, HOWEVER, IMO, based on the quoted part on page 9, it could appear that TC wanted to know why RA was a better suspect than his, but that information was not offered to him. JMO.

 

[tlcya]

This part that you quoted previously kind of says how he feels, imo.

Wanting to allay his fears that an innocent man was sitting in Westville, Click agreed to
attend the meeting with Holeman hoping that he would be learning that evidence did in fact exist
linking Richard Allen to the murders. Click’s hopes were dashed. Paragraph 17 of Click’s
affidavit:

problem is, these aren't Click's words. They are the words of RA's defense attorney, no?

 

[MistyWaters]

Within this article below is the evidence which the defence lists regarding the four.

Delphi double homicide: Evidence against suspects named in 'Odin Report'

News 18 is still breaking down new revelations about the Dephi double homicide, including suspects named in a police report.

www.wlfi.com

This link includes the supposed alibis.

Delphi double homicide: Alibis for suspects named in 'Odin Report'

News 18 is explaining the alibis police used to rule out four suspects named in the "Odin Report."

www.wlfi.com

I think it’s very important to remember this biased information (propaganda) coming from the defence who’s job is to defend RA.

 

[EOA]

Reinforcing that both Prosecution and Defense are using carefully selected language to guide the reader in a certain direction. It helps to re-read all of the documents with a very discerning eye given newer information from when that document was originally released. Some examples:

1) Are these two statements identical?
a) RA stated he was on the trail between 1:30 and 3:30 in his 2017 CO interview (p.2 #13 of State's rebuttal to Def memorandum)
b) RA arrived at the trails at 1:30 and departed at 3:30 (as we've seen in multiple documents and heard many times)
MOO I don't think they're necessarily identical though they could be. IF.. hypothetically I knew I was there for an unremembered period of time earlier before leaving at 1:32, and a conversation between myself and CO occurred like this:

CO: "Were you on the trail at all between 1:30 and 3:30? (a reasonable question at that time, when girls were only missing, given that BP/KG were originally pretty certain the dropoff was closer to 1:30, like 1:37, and DG returned for pickup around 3:14)
Me: "Yes....definitely way toward the earlier end of that range but technically Yes within that range..
CO: hurriedly writes down the abbreviated version in his notes (this is word for word per Objection) "Mr.Allen was on the trail between 1330-1530".

It would be easy for someone to read those notes later and interpret that as RA stated that he arrived at 1:30 and departed at 3:30 which is not accurate as to what was said. The CO transctipt doesn't state that RA left at 3:30 or arrived at 1:30, only that he was on the trail (in an unclarified manner) between 1:30 and 3:30. Since subsequent camera video determined that the girls were dropped off at 1:49 or 1:50, being there around 1:30 would really have had little relevance. The HH camera which possibly saw a dark car resembling RA's Focus and the Freedom Bridge encounter, both of which I'll mention later would suggest a 1:30-ish arrival if both of those pieces are verifiable, but I can't find support that RA ever specifically stated he was there the entire 2 hours in question - and if so, you'd need to believe him on the 1:30 part but not the 3:30 part otherwise he couldn't be the "muddy" maybe bloody too, guy seen at 3:57.

 

[TL4S]

EF is a potential problem, IMO. Per page 96 and 97, his phone was in Rushville from 10:30 am to 7:30 pm, and was unused during that time, on 2/13/17. In 2018, EF told LE he was in Rushville on 2/13/17, but RoAb (so as not to be confused with charged RA), told LE he and EF were in Muncie visiting the hospital, both had their phones, but because hospitals cut cell reception due to equipment, their phones wouldn't show up at the hospital. According to the memo, LE did not believe RoAb or EF were in Muncie on 2/13/17.

Then we have EF admitting putting sticks on A's head like antlers. Even if LE didn't see "antlers" in those sticks, if there were sticks obviously placed around her head at all, possibly this could be seen as an incriminating statement. How would he know about sticks around her head? Lucky guess because they were in the woods? Was he there? Had he seen a picture? He also said he spit on the girls, after LE took his DNA. I think if he had spit on the girls, the DNA would have been usable unless perhaps it had been so diluted with blood, or something like that. But he also made admissions to one sister on Feb. 14, 2017, and the other sister on Oct. 2017. His first sister tipped him in, and the D has requested the P find this exact tip narrative (page 93).

We don't know how accurate any of this is, but what is being stated in this part, by the D, will be obvious to the judge when she reads the attachments, which we do not have access to.

 

[EOA]

Here's another Word Play that guides us in a certain direction...

PCA last full paragraph on p.2 - "Interviews were conducted with 3 juveniles" who were on the MHB Trail on 2/13/17... I believe we all leaped to the conclusion that the group of juveniles on the bridge consisted of 3 individuals, which is what the Prosecution wanted us to do based on RA stating in his CO interview "while at the Freedom Bridge he [RA] saw three females. Those two sightings needed to be of each other for evidence against RA.

We dismissed BB's account that she, per PCA p.3, "saw 4 juvenile females walking on the Bridge over Old SR 25 as she drove underneath", assuming that while driving, her count must've been off by 1 - of course believing they had to have been the same group.

As it turns out from later filings, there actually were 4 girls (all named in the unredacted doc) who encountered a man (likely RA) near the Freedom Bridge. We're not really told why only 3 were interviewed, though some believe the 4th may have been very young. In any event, RA stated he encountered 3 girls and BB said she saw 4 girls, but it is critical for the Prosecution's timeline condemning RA that questions aren't raised as to whether there 2 distinct groups of girls. Given that the 3 descriptions provided by the girls of the man were inconsistent and not much of a match to BG (one said he was wearing all black and not taller than 5'10, one said he wore a really light blue canvas jacket, while the 3rd mentioned a dark collared windbreaker while saying he matched (apparently what she'd previously viewed) the person in L's video) it doesn't help solidify that there might not have been either a different man sighted or two different groups of girls.

In any event, as was discussed many pages back in the Spring - the girls who took the photos (at 12:43 and 1:26) were traversing at less than 1mph (had covered like .6 of a mile of territory in 58 minutes) if in fact as Prosecution suggests they encountered RA at around 1:41...yet then had to have burst into a sprint to be past the Freedom and on to the overpass when BB drove under at approx 1:44-1:45 before she later crossed the HH camera at 1:46.

 

[Teche]

I'm shocked that the killer left the cell phone with the bodies.

 

[Miya]

EF is a potential problem, IMO. Per page 96 and 97, his phone was in Rushville from 10:30 am to 7:30 pm, and was unused during that time, on 2/13/17. In 2018, EF told LE he was in Rushville on 2/13/17, but RoAb (so as not to be confused with charged RA), told LE he and EF were in Muncie visiting the hospital, both had their phones, but because hospitals cut cell reception due to equipment, their phones wouldn't show up at the hospital. According to the memo, LE did not believe RoAb or EF were in Muncie on 2/13/17.

Then we have EF admitting putting sticks on A's head like antlers. Even if LE didn't see "antlers" in those sticks, if there were sticks obviously placed around her head at all, possibly this could be seen as an incriminating statement. How would he know about sticks around her head? Lucky guess because they were in the woods? Was he there? Had he seen a picture? He also said he spit on the girls, after LE took his DNA. I think if he had spit on the girls, the DNA would have been usable unless perhaps it had been so diluted with blood, or something like that. But he also made admissions to his sister in Oct. 2017.

We don't know how accurate any of this is, but what is being stated in this part, by the D, will be obvious to the judge when she reads the attachments, which we do not have access to.

Thank you for this summary. I almost forgot about this and all the details, there was the confession, the spit, the antlers and then the lie about the hospital alibi. I believe all this is true, like you said, the judge has all the documents and it wouldn't make any sense to make these things up if the judge just has to check the attachments.

If I didn't know anything about the case or at least didn't know they already arrested someone, this person would be very sus to me. Or if they arrested someone like that with the things mentioned in your post, I'd believe they have the right guy or one of the right guys. It's so confusing and also shocking, because what if they have the wrong guy or others were involved? That wouldn't be justice for Abby and Libby and one or more violent people would still be out on the streets.

It is weird that he asked a policeman about the spit, confessed about the spit to a family member, who does that and why? While at the same time knowing about "antlers" and having what seems to be no alibi/a false alibi. Even if he heard rumors about antlers or saw a picture, there is still the spit question and confession and the alibi problem.

This case just never ends and I also believe that a lot of people don't really want to look at the memo in detail and just want to brush it off as defense nonsense because they are tired of the case and tired of it not being solved after so many years. Me too and I stopped following the way I did before after RA's arrest, was just waiting for the trial or a guilty plea. I wanted this to be over, I wanted the person punished, and more than that, behind bars to make the world a little bit safer, and now we have this.

I hope we get our answers soon and why they are sure RA is guilty and was either alone or involved.

 

[TL4S]

Thank you for this summary. I almost forgot about this and all the details, there was the confession, the spit, the antlers and then the lie about the hospital alibi. I believe all this is true, like you said, the judge has all the documents and it wouldn't make any sense to make these things up if the judge just has to check the attachments.

If I didn't know anything about the case or at least didn't know they already arrested someone, this person would be very sus to me. Or if they arrested someone like that with the things mentioned in your post, I'd believe they have the right guy or one of the right guys. It's so confusing and also shocking, because what if they have the wrong guy or others were involved? That wouldn't be justice for Abby and Libby and one or more violent people would still be out on the streets.

It is weird that he asked a policeman about the spit, confessed about the spit to a family member, who does that and why? While at the same time knowing about "antlers" and having what seems to be no alibi/a false alibi. Even if he heard rumors about antlers or saw a picture, there is still the spit question and confession and the alibi problem.

This case just never ends and I also believe that a lot of people don't really want to look at the memo in detail and just want to brush it off as defense nonsense because they are tired of the case and tired of it not being solved after so many years. Me too and I stopped following the way I did before after RA's arrest, was just waiting for the trial or a guilty plea. I wanted this to be over, I wanted the person punished, and more than that, behind bars to make the world a little bit safer, and now we have this.

I hope we get our answers soon and why they are sure RA is guilty and was either alone or involved.

Yes, it's frustrating because I do believe LE had good probable cause, probably a great deal more than we see in the PCA, to arrest and charge RA as they did.

EF as a suspect might depend a lot on how accurate his statements were. Per the memo, there might be some mental deficiencies with EF, so a false confession might not be implausible. However, his own sister thought it pertinent to go to LE, and still pursue it a year later, if the memo is accurate. If he had spit and there was clear DNA evidence of that, he'd be in jail right now, IMO. So either the DNA they have isn't as usable as we would like to think, or it didn't happen. Or maybe one of the girls was washed by creek water at some point? IDK...just spitballing (no pun intended). The memo also says RA's DNA was not at the crime scene...

In any case, I remind myself that none of the men listed in the memo have been charged with anything related to the murders. The D would like us to believe that is because the Unified Command simply blew off the Rushville investigation, but who knows the truth.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Let's not forget there was a large reward in this case, which may lend to false confessions or tips in to police.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, it's frustrating because I do believe LE had good probable cause, probably a great deal more than we see in the PCA, to arrest and charge RA as they did.

EF as a suspect might depend a lot on how accurate his statements were. Per the memo, there might be some mental deficiencies with EF, so a false confession might not be implausible. However, his own sister thought it pertinent to go to LE, and still pursue it a year later, if the memo is accurate. If he had spit and there was clear DNA evidence of that, he'd be in jail right now, IMO. So either the DNA they have isn't as usable as we would like to think, or it didn't happen. Or maybe one of the girls was washed by creek water at some point? IDK...just spitballing (no pun intended).

In any case, I remind myself that none of the men listed in the memo have been charged with anything related to the murders. The D would like us to believe that is because the Unified Command simply blew off the Rushville investigation, but who knows the truth.

Doesn’t EF have mental impairment and assessed to function at the level of a 7 year old ? If so, how would he know about DNA from spit? There’s a very high risk that he was coached to say things. JMO

 

[TL4S]

Doesn’t EF have mental impairment and assessed to function at the level of a 7 year old ? If so, how would he know about DNA from spit? There’s a very high risk that he was coached to say things. JMO

Wouldn't that be suspicious, too, then? Who would coach him to say that, and why? The real killer? Or are we to believe his sister was throwing him under the bus for the reward money?

 

[MistyWaters]

Let's not forget there was a large reward in this case, which may lend to false confessions or tips in to police.

I could see why tips on deadbeat ex‘s would surely be a risk. Receiving the reward money plus ex locked up not causing trouble would be a far preferable option to some, rather than chasing alimony/maintenance that never comes.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wouldn't that be suspicious, too, then? Who would coach him to say that, and why? The real killer? Or are we to believe his sister was throwing him under the bus for the reward money?

Could‘ve been anyone I suppose. But IMO that’s a good reason why tips that prove unsubstantial and unfounded shouldn’t be shared with the public. We don’t have to know everything.

Regardless, no way an adult functioning at a 7 year old level should ever be interviewed/interrogated by anyone in the normal fashion.

 

[Miya]

Yes, it's frustrating because I do believe LE had good probable cause, probably a great deal more than we see in the PCA, to arrest and charge RA as they did.

EF as a suspect might depend a lot on how accurate his statements were. Per the memo, there might be some mental deficiencies with EF, so a false confession might not be implausible. However, his own sister thought it pertinent to go to LE, and still pursue it a year later, if the memo is accurate. If he had spit and there was clear DNA evidence of that, he'd be in jail right now, IMO. So either the DNA they have isn't as usable as we would like to think, or it didn't happen. Or maybe one of the girls was washed by creek water at some point? IDK...just spitballing (no pun intended).

In any case, I remind myself that none of the men listed in the memo have been charged with anything related to the murders. The D would like us to believe that is because the Unified Command simply blew off the Rushville investigation, but who knows the truth.

Well ... if it's true that Abby seemed pretty clean, maybe she was cleaned. Either part of the sick plan or to get rid of any kind of DNA. We also don't know, like you said, if they even found any DNA, I think they went back and forth over the years between not answering that question and saying things like "there are all kinds of DNA", or "we have a lot of DNA", don't remember exactly. That's also very vague though, of course there was DNA, from the girls, maybe from animals, and yes, maybe from whoever did this. But if the memo is right about that too, they don't have DNA that connects RA to the crime scene either.

Even if he is like an 8-year-old, he didn't confess to LE but to a family member (meaning, no pressure), and there are still the antlers and the alibi that doesn't really work. This case is crazy and I wish now that from the beginning I would have followed at least some of the stuff that people thought, the rumors, etc., I just never did because I thought it's all BS. Now I know that there was talk in the internet about this cult, I had never seen that and was completely surprised with this in the memo. And I don't mean I just should have believed all the rumors, just followed them a bit as well, but of course we didn't know back then that it would take years and we didn't know that we'd get this memo.

And in general, with the internet you get all kinds of rumors, wild conspiracy theories, and I never really care about that, I trust LE to investigate and don't even want to be bothered with the rest, it turns into a show and entertainment for some people and I don't like to read that (or watch it on youtube). Maybe, especially if it's a small town, paying some attention to those things might be a good idea in the future (I know it couldn't be discussed here, but it's not even about that, it's just about knowing now that things can get weird even after an arrest and that it's always possible, as it happened here, that the police at least made some mistakes even early on at the crime scene).

 

[arielilane]

I'm shocked that the killer left the cell phone with the bodies.

Agreed. It's similar to a knife sheath being found under MM's (Idaho) body. I supposed the killer is rushing to leave the crime scene? moo