IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[Justice101]

Agree, the case, whether DNA and/ or significant circumstantial evidence, is there to be made in the open court.

The onus is on the P to prove this - and that is where the need for beyond reasonable doubt plays.

75% of murder cases are solved and successfully prosecuted without DNA evidence.

It's all the other direct evidence that matters just as much like tire tracks, footprints, hair (is a big one), finger prints, call and phone logs, local video footage, duct tape matches, carpet fiber matches.. you name it.

 

[Springrain]

JMO I think sometimes we think DNA is the end all, be all in criminal cases when it is just not always the case. I can see many different scenarios where RA is the culprit, but there is not definitive DNA evidence tying him to the scene.

 

[iamshadow21]

75% of murder cases are solved and successfully prosecuted without DNA evidence.

It's all the other direct evidence that matters just as much like tire tracks, footprints, hair (is a big one), finger prints, call and phone logs, local video footage, duct tape matches, carpet fiber matches.. you name it.

Just to quibble over a technicality - none of those things are direct evidence.

Direct evidence - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

All the things you listed are considered circumstantial.

That those things cement cases in court is for sure, though.

 

[Andieinsyd]

I think that RA is very likely BG = the person who took the girls down the hill and murdered them.

But I think there is reasonable doubt going on existing evidence;

- RA‘s original interview with CO can be argued that he meant he was on the trails and bridge sometime between 1:30 and 3:30 as opposed to the whole time between 1:30 and 3:30. And the CO has lost the recording of the interview, and also filed It under the wrong name. Loss of credibility for CO.

- 3 girls saw someone matching RA on the trails and he saw them. Bit too early and not at the crime scene.

- a witness saw someone who matched BG description on the bridge just at the right time but he was youngish with poufy hair (doesn’t really match description of RA)

- the same witness saw a car that was not black and an older car (doesn’t match RAs Ford focus)

- unspent bullet from same type of gun as RA (lab results suggest their ejection analysis is subjective in nature - results pointing to RAs gun not fully reliable)

- RA confession - hoping this is very strong

I think reasonable doubt can be established - RA was at trails briefly around 1:30pm walked briskly to bridge, looked at a fish, turned around and left. After he had left young bridge guy (Odinist) turned up in old car, was on the bridge (seen by witness), murdered girls and was the tan jacket muddy guy seen walking on side of road. Bullet wasn’t RAs.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Sorry if this is already discussed but did RA and RL knew each other?

Delphi is a small town. RL and RA were both known to visit drinking establishments. Chances are they crossed paths, but I’ve seen nothing that directly connects them.

I am curious as to why you ask?
Would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[MistyWaters]

Two motions filed this week. The defence doesn’t wasn’t the prosecution to have access to mental health records. Odonist prison guards are quietly disappearing already. I’d guess those confessions are at the centre of this. I also notice the words “had not filed“ an insanity defence are not the same as “will not be filing“.

Delphi murder suspect’s attorneys ask judge to deny prosecution’s subpoena for medical, mental health records

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen are asking the court to deny the prosecution access to their client’s mental health and medical records. In September, Carro…

fox59.com

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – Attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen are asking the court to deny the prosecution access to their client’s mental health and medical records.

In September, Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland subpoenaed Allen’s health records from his time in captivity. The subpoena sought the results of examinations and evaluations that Allen has undergone at Westville Correctional Facility since Nov. 3, 2022…

…..“The Carroll County Prosecutor, by his own admission, has ‘no dog in this fight’ because the Safekeeping Order of November 3, 2022, transferred jurisdiction of Defendant Allen from the Carroll County Sheriff to the Indiana Department of Corrections,” the filing said.

Allen’s attorneys wrote that they had not filed an insanity defense, nor have they requested a competency evaluation of Allen, meaning his “mental state is not at issue in the guilt/innocence phase of this proceeding.”

The attorneys also wrote that the “requested information is not likely to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.”…..”

 

[Emma Peel]

Interesting to see folks sharing their reasonable doubt thought process.
Thinking what the heck; I'll share where I fall on the spectrum at this juncture pre-trial...

IMO, a non-granualar summary of Q's and D's (Doubts):

Doubt in the investigative process itself. Doubt in the local pushback/rejection of FBI investigation assistance to speed up that process. Doubt in the sudden, years late "discovery" of a "clerical error" as to RA - who came forward immediately to voluntarily put himself at the bridge at the right time? (The clown show of that omission is patently absurd and throws doubt on the entire investigative process, IMO.) There's been one theory worked all along; the phone-video capture of BG = the video of BH the killer walking the girls "down the hill". Does RA physically match the forensically calculated BG the killer height estimates? Is RA clothing vs BG clothing vs witness bloody clothing reports vs scene fibers ... conclusive? Doubt in ballistics evidence. Is there doubt in the voice forensics? Is there conclusive DNA evidence?

Point being, without the jailhouse "confession" - the context of which we don't understand yet - there's plenty for defense to poke at in order to create reasonable doubt.

Not a minor area of doubt to eliminate: Is the in-prison "confession" legit? Was it coerced by abusive prison environment/conditions, by psych considerations such as prescribed meds, stress, lack of sleep, confusion? Any of these conditions make the confession worthy of being ruled out of consideration. (Confessions under duress ... have been retracted - and thrown out - in many many other cases.)

 

[mrjitty]

I think that RA is very likely BG = the person who took the girls down the hill and murdered them.

But I think there is reasonable doubt going on existing evidence;

- RA‘s original interview with CO can be argued that he meant he was on the trails and bridge sometime between 1:30 and 3:30 as opposed to the whole time between 1:30 and 3:30. And the CO has lost the recording of the interview, and also filed It under the wrong name. Loss of credibility for CO.

RSBM

Right but who will 'argue' it?

The CO will presumably testify how he remembers it and how his note should now be interpreted

RA has apparently said in a miranda interview that he left by 1.30pm

So who will give evidence that he was there between 1.30-3.30?

At best the defence team can pick at the CO but it seems difficult for them to argue for 'between' because that goes against what their own client told police in a recorded interview

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Niner The new motions

10/10/2023	Motion to Quash Filed Motion to Quash Subpoena Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/07/2023
10/10/2023	Motion to Quash Filed Motion to Quash Subpoena Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/07/2023
10/10/2023	Response to a Petition Filed State's Response to Motion for Discovery Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/10/2023
10/10/2023	Response to a Petition Filed State's Response to Defense's Verified Motion for Immediate Transfer Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/10/2023

 

[Bergmann]

State have just responded to D's motion for immediate transfer of custody.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Niner The judge...

10/10/2023

Order Issued The Court having reviewed Defendant Allen's Motion for Discovery Deadline, the Court now orders the following: without objection by the State. The State of Indiana must produce all discovery to defense counsel on or before November 1, 2023. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/10/2023

 

[Poedelini]

Delphi is a small town. RL and RA were both known to visit drinking establishments. Chances are they crossed paths, but I’ve seen nothing that directly connects them.

I am curious as to why you ask?
Would like to hear your thoughts.

Im hestitant to say alot here because there is so much information and i don't know everything about this case. Im also not the best at explaining my thoughts but i will do my best. This is all my opinion. Please correct me if im wrong about anything.

But my thought's is that RL is very suspicious. He lied about his alibi and the girls where found on his property. Also his violent past with woman is a red flag. The only thought i have is why would he leave the girls on his property. But why would he lie about his alibi?

The fact that Kegan Kline was in communication with Libby just before she died feels like to big of a coincidence.
In my honest opinion i feel like this crime is not done by only one person.

When im thinking about RA, he could be involved. Maybe Kegan Kline lured the girls to the end of the bridge and RA brought the girls to the spot where they decided to do whatever they did and RL was there too.

Or the suspect knew RL and wanted to leave the girls on his property so they would look at him immediatly.
But i can't unsee RL and KK or im having severe tunnel vision.

Sorry my brain is only capable of being all over the place.
This is what is living in my head right now. I would love to know what others think.

 

[twall]

Court docs: Correctional officers overseeing Richard Allen took off religious patches that could be associated with Odinism

Tuesday's court documents are in reference to the defense's filing outlining why they believe Libby German and Abby Williams were "ritualistically sacrificed."

www.wthr.com

 

[CGBSpender]

But my thought's is that RL is very suspicious. He lied about his alibi and the girls where found on his property. Also his violent past with woman is a red flag. The only thought i have is why would he leave the girls on his property. But why would he lie about his alibi?

Some food for thought....

1) The former gf and housemate referenced in the RL affidavit weren't interviewed until AFTER the reward money increased to $200k...and AFTER RL's house had already been subject to a probationer search. Tipping RL in at that point by anyone with an axe to grind (or someone sketchy just looking for some money) would have been a no brainer IMO.

2) RL made a phone call at 2:09pm. BG is recorded walking on the bridge towards the girls at 2:13pm...and BG is clearly not on the phone at that time. If RL's phone call lasted more than 4 minutes...he can't be BG. I also don't see an elderly man talking on the phone while walking across that rickety bridge 63 feet up in the air, so if the call lasted say 1-2 minutes, was made at the start of the bridge, and he hung up and started walking across at around 2:11pm...I still don't think he makes it to the point on the bridge where BG is filmed by 2:13pm.

3) Why obtain a false alibi at 9:20am on 02/14? My theory is that RL maybe didn't trust LE, and just freaked out a little bit. I've always wondered if something may have been found (maybe an article of clothing or something) in the river or within the vicinity of RL's property around 9am, and that he may have been informed of this that morning when being asked if people could search his land. I say this because at 9:04 we know Delphi Fire was trying to get a truck removed from the cemetery. It makes sense to me that a search of RL's land in greater depth would have been taking place around this time as well.

JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

for what it's worth ... with a nod to context being EVERYTHING ...

Delphi investigators were looking for Bridge Guy. For sure. Does this mean prosecutor must prove that video BG is real-life RA?

A guideline of BG's height range/stature (profile-by-video) was already provided. RA doesn't meet that height range. I'm wondering if the stature estimate issued for video suspect BG ... was forensically calculated by experts. And how that matches up to RA. (RA being a very short guy. At arrest, short and stout.)

Other curiousities/ Q's:

Will the prosecution have a forensic expert matching RG to BG height ... as well as voice forensics?

RA doesn't match the height range of BG provided by LE ... for years. Was it just another serious investigation LE error ... publishing the *wrong* (?) height range for BG?

One would think every single male placed at the park for the correct timeframe would have been followed up with some type of questioning regardless of height. Did RA interview end up in "clerical error land" due to the BG height description not matching RA height? Maybe the testimony of the investigators will illuminate this one.

Other POI's ... RL & KK were eliminated from the POI list a while back. Others?
Was Abby's boyfriend/father ever a POI? (I missed the elimination outcomes with some POIs early on.) Was the bf's father eliminated & how?

There were 2 police sketches - different aged men; were the 2 sketches supposed to represent the boyfriend and his father? If not, who were the sketches representing? Were the sketches meant to match BG's video images?

Do we know if these 2 sketches are no longer considered relevant? Did LE ruled out those POIs related to the sketches? Or ... were they supposed to be sketches of BG only? And does LE think RA matches one of the sketches?

I think that's all I have rattling in my head on this one ... feels good to unload it here. I'll look back - possible laughing at myself - sometime in the future.

Keep the faith all!

 

[O.Incandenza]

Just read through the latest filings, a couple random thoughts:

1. From the Prosecution's discovery filing: "6. That this consisted of hundreds of man hours to copy each paper document associated with a 6-year investigation, along with coping millions of terabytes of electronic data for the defense."

I'm sympathetic to the overall point, but there is absolutely no chance in the world they were 'coping' millions of terabytes of electronic data. That's just a wild, wild exaggeration.

2. The prosecution concedes that Westville guards were in fact wearing Odinist patches as the defense alleged. I think the defense's claim that they're part of a conspiracy is dumb, but, that said, them wearing those patches is wildly inappropriate to me. What is going on with the Westville leadership? Guards being allowed to openly wear patches that align them with a white supremacist prison movement is just *advertiser censored**.

 

[TL4S]

Just read through the latest filings, a couple random thoughts:

1. From the Prosecution's discovery filing: "6. That this consisted of hundreds of man hours to copy each paper document associated with a 6-year investigation, along with coping millions of terabytes of electronic data for the defense."

I'm sympathetic to the overall point, but there is absolutely no chance in the world they were 'coping' millions of terabytes of electronic data. That's just a wild, wild exaggeration.

2. The prosecution concedes that Westville guards were in fact wearing Odinist patches as the defense alleged. I think the defense's claim that they're part of a conspiracy is dumb, but, that said, them wearing those patches is wildly inappropriate to me. What is going on with the Westville leadership? Guards being allowed to openly wear patches that align them with a white supremacist prison movement is just *advertiser censored**.

So the guards really were wearing Odinist patches?

 

[O.Incandenza]

So the guards really were wearing Odinist patches?

Yes.

From the State's response to the transfer motion:

"12. That both Sergeant Joshua Robinson and Sergeant Randy Jones have worn patches that refer to Odinism.

13. That those patches reflect Sergeant Robinson's and Sergeant Jones's religious beliefs and are not associated with any kind of cult."

The Warden submitted an affidavit that said there wasn't any policy against wearing patches. Jones also submitted an affidavit saying he did indeed wear the patches, but he isn't an Odinist, he practices Norse Paganism Heathenry.

 

[Emma Peel]

Just read through the latest filings, a couple random thoughts:

1. From the Prosecution's discovery filing: "6. That this consisted of hundreds of man hours to copy each paper document associated with a 6-year investigation, along with coping millions of terabytes of electronic data for the defense."

I'm sympathetic to the overall point, but there is absolutely no chance in the world they were 'coping' millions of terabytes of electronic data. That's just a wild, wild exaggeration.

2. The prosecution concedes that Westville guards were in fact wearing Odinist patches as the defense alleged. I think the defense's claim that they're part of a conspiracy is dumb, but, that said, them wearing those patches is wildly inappropriate to me. What is going on with the Westville leadership? Guards being allowed to openly wear patches that align them with a white supremacist prison movement is just *advertiser censored**.

Thank you for this.

And - re: #2 above.
RA is held separately from other inmates for his own protection - is he not?
And those charged with communicating with him, feeding him, monitoring him while he uses the phone ... they wear badges of intimidation/coercion.

... confession under stress?

 

[Emma Peel]

The Warden submitted an affidavit that said there wasn't any policy against wearing patches. Jones also submitted an affidavit saying he did indeed wear the patches, but he isn't an Odinist, he practices Norse Paganism Heathenry.

Thanks again for this.

Well then.

Guard signed an affidavit swearing to his odonism-symbol-identifying-patch worn in support of his norse pagan heathenry beliefs "that are NOT odonism" ... so ... all's well in solitary, clearly.

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

Both correctional officers reportedly denied practicing Odinism but admitted to wearing patches on their uniforms that can be — but they said are not — associated with Odinism. The correctional officers allegedly said they stopped wearing the patches on their uniforms last month when they were asked to remove them.

That correctional officer told prosecutors that Allen was tased twice between May 9 and May 25 because he did not comply with the officers’ orders.