IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[FrostedGlass]

Bringing the article link forward; they were working late to get this done.

Richard Allen's attorneys name Purdue professor and say police hid statement on Odinist connection to Delphi killings

The court documents claim the crime scene had pagan symbols formed with sticks, with tree branches and on a tree.

www.wthr.com

Snips from the article; it's a long one, going over many of the issues.
...
"The defense points to Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett swearing under oath on Aug. 8, 2023 that a Purdue University professor did not believe sticks on the bodies were Odinist symbols. The defense also claims Prosecutor Nick McLeland allegedly told the defense the prosecution was unable to identify the Purdue professor as of Sept. 6, 2023."
...
"On Sept. 18, the defense submitted a filing outlining why they believe the girls were "ritualistically sacrificed" and leveled accusations against lead detectives of ignoring or intentionally suppressing that evidence for years."
...
"The next day, Sept. 19, the defense claims Holeman was able to find the Purdue professor, Jeffrey Turco, and interview him. Holeman allegedly said he was working to setup the interview with Turco for several weeks. The defense claims that would have happened at the same time the prosecutor claimed they could not identify the professor."

 

[girlhasnoname]

Oh, I read the wthr article about the Professor, too. The D is sticking to their story. A Harvard colleague agrees with the Professor from Purdue.

The defense claims there is a taped statement from [Professor] that includes the following:

• That the professor stated after seeing the pattern of the sticks that "it was given" someone was trying to replicate a Germanic runic script.
• That the professor consulted with a colleague from Harvard who agreed with the Purdue professor.
• That he "could certainly imagine that this was somebody's idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me."

RBBM

I agree that Defendant Allen was staging the scene. For what purposes? Either a sick fantasy of his, to cast LE's attention to another 'group' away from himself, someone paid good money for photos or video of such a thing.

I truly don't know, because my mind just won't allow me to go there. It saddens me even more for Abby & Libby.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

"The attorneys claim one such piece of information involves “several search warrants signed by Judges in Marion County pertaining to certain internet and phone records, including at least one unknown person who admitted to killing the girls, even providing details unknown to the general public of the crime scene such as the fact that he used a knife in a way consistent with the manner of death and also claiming that he used a gun but never fired it.”


Marion Co
Cities in this county include: Indianapolis, Lawrence, Beech Grove, Speedway, Cumberland, Southport, Meridian Hills, Warren Park, Clermont, Homecroft.

Marion County, Indiana detailed profile - houses, real estate, cost of living, wages, work, agriculture, ancestries, and more

eta: Rushville is a two hours drive to Delphi.

A little trivia for you:
Rushville is southeast of Indy. It's about 33 miles from there to Interstate 465.
Marion County has a lengthy lists of courts. I've never tried to sort out which ones handle which areas.

 

[Bergmann]

I agree that Defendant Allen was staging the scene.

You're entitled to speculate on that but the P would have to prove that kind of accusation for it to stand, which is problematic due to the fact that LE said DNA was recovered from the scene, but also said on record they have no DNA linking RA to the crime scene.

As a strategy they are likely on stronger ground to focus on the confessions and proving RA=BG.

photos or video

As ghoulish and upsetting it is to consider such things, the emergence of this kind of evidence could be very helpful in identifying the perpetrator(s). I'm loathe to hope for such a thing to exist but...

 

[schooling]

And to frame whom?

Usually a piece of evidence is planted to frame a specific person

Great question!

The frame job is such a lazy take. A lot of people are disappointed that RA doesn't fit their archetype or that this crime wasn't perpetuated by a world wide ring of secret conspirators. So they rationalize it by creating another conspiracy. That somehow the real killers managed to infiltrate the police. That RA is just a poor patsy for the all powerful secret world wide ring.

Because for the last 6 years people have been building a dark fantastical world in which they believe a crime like this could be committed. And when it's proven just to be your regular old "lone loser creep acts on perversions and kills" which isn't mini-series or motion picture worthy, all rationalization is out the window when trying to maintain that original theory.

It's the same thing in the Moscow case.

 

[schooling]

You're entitled to speculate on that but the P would have to prove that kind of accusation for it to stand, which is problematic due to the fact that LE said DNA was recovered from the scene, but also said on record they have no DNA linking RA to the crime scene.

As a strategy they are likely on stronger ground to focus on the confessions and proving RA=BG.


As ghoulish and upsetting it is to consider such things, the emergence of this kind of evidence could be very helpful in identifying the perpetrator(s). I'm loathe to hope for such a thing to exist but...

the perpetuator (singular) has been identified. he's currently sitting in a cell awaiting trial.

 

[Bergmann]

he perpetuator (singular) has been identified. he's currently sitting in a cell awaiting trial.

I think I know your meaning here, but strictly speaking RA has been accused and charged with being the perpetrator.

He isn't the perpetrator until he has been actually convicted as such by the jury in the appointed court.

There's a long way to go until the trial by the looks of things.

 

[raja]

I am going to play devils advocate here and am in no way saying this is what happened. What if RA did not feel his family believed him about his innocence and a big what if he is innocent, he finally breaks and says “you don’t believe me ..fine.. I did it now leave me alone out of sheer frustration”. This could happen but I’m not saying it did.

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps he confessed to garner sympathy. Yes, I did it, but it wasn't me, it was the alcohol/addiction/depression. That somehow he was a victim to something he couldn't control, hoping to reel his family in emotionally. Don't abandon me, I'm a broken man....

Jmo

 

[DeDee]

I can't access the article (probably because Europe), I read the actual filing, but yes, that's what it says and yes, Holeman interviewed the Professor recently (would have to look for the exact date again, too tired right now, but it was in September, the 23rd maybe?) after they found him out of the blue while the prosecutor said just a couple of days earlier that they might never identify him. And a couple of days later that interview was given to the defense but only with the name of the Professor on it, nothing that made it clear who this person is.

That interview is the "taped statement", so claiming the Professor whose name was lost somewhere in the files or something, stated in 2017 that there is nothing ritualistic going on is a lie. They had every reason to hide him and the defense won't let them do that. And yes, there was even a second expert involved. People can laugh at them, but they are uncovering some pretty serious stuff about the investigation and some of the investigators involved. Someone here said after the memo came out, that they are like whistleblowers, and I think it gets more and more obvious that that's part of it (even if just a by-product of their defense).

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

The "whistleblowers" are revealing relevant information to the public. We can dismiss it or consider it. The CS is like many thought and heard about for years over various platforms.

I agree that Defendant Allen was staging the scene. For what purposes? Either a sick fantasy of his, to cast LE's attention to another 'group' away from himself, someone paid good money for photos or video of such a thing.

How did RA manage to keep Abby's body clean? Wait. Let me back up. How in the world did RA manage to climb that steep embankment after wading thru waist deep water? Abby's lithe body could have probably scrambled up the embankment by grabbing ahold of outcroppings. How did Libby make it up that steep incline? So, I have two out of three that would struggle to get up that dirt embankment.

The path DG walked went close to the edge of the Creek on the opposite side but directly across from where the girls were later found. He was right there. He didn't see anything, no movements, but, mostly, he didn't hear anything either.

I truly don't know, because my mind just won't allow me to go there. It saddens me even more for Abby & Libby.

MOO

There is understanding in protecting oneself from scary aspects of the crime. I can't separate my emotions so instead I step away for long periods of time. Do not fret. There are no photos or videos, imo.

There is sworn testimony that RA's electronics do not tie him to the crime.

I always felt the SnapChat photo of Abby on MHB was a signal notifying someone they anticipated meeting. These two precious girls were set up, imo.

Surely, if a video or photos existed, on the dark web, for instance, then we'd know about it. It would have been found. Those folks on 4chan perform some impressive work as they'll pay to venture into places others, like us, don't dare go.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Well, they couldn't find the Professor until a couple of days ago - and see the posts above, after the memo that mentioned the "missing" Professor, they all of a sudden remembered his name, found him and interviewed him again and he pretty much said the opposite of what they claim he said back in 2017.

I don’t believe they knew the defense would be pursuing this theory until after Liggett’s interview in August. He may or may not have even alerted the prosecutors- are we to believe the prosecution has every lead and possible theory that was investigated over 6 years? My understanding is once the memorandum came out and prosecution didn’t have the investigative evidence they pushed back to Holeman that went and found the professor and interviewed him stat.
Maybe Bergman can answer this- is it standard for prosecution to have the totality of investigation when it’s as vast as this?
I can imagine it’s documents take up a high school gym floor to ceiling.

 

[Bergmann]

Maybe Bergman can answer this- is it standard for prosecution to have the totality of investigation when it’s as vast as this?

I can't comment on the US system, I imagine there are some rules relating to this from the DoJ and then maybe state by state interpretations and variations.

As a basic principle though, if you're going to try some-one in court please bear in mind there are a number of potential outcomes, some of which may lead an investigation back to the drawing board so I would imagine beyond the rules it would be sensible to retain records until you at least have a conviction and then beyond the scope of appeals etc.

Given that investigations are increasingly conducted and recorded via digital media this isn't quite like filling up warehouses with paper files!

Most of the materials passed from P to D to date have been on digital media?

 

[TL4S]

New Murder Sheet:

The Delphi Murders: Motion for Discovery Deadline and Defendant's Additional Franks Notice

 

[Jade]

A pharmacy technician would be fastidious above all else as a job requirement so RA fits the bill for that at the crime scene.


RA looked perfectly capable of crossing a creek and clambering up a steep embankment.

Compact and sturdy.





[I participate in creek and river cleanups with volunteers of all shapes, sizes and ages. It’s no great feat for the average person to wade through a creek and go up a steep bank even while dragging a muddy tire. RA would be energetic and motivated with his project underway, imo]

all imo

 

[TL4S]

Who would have ever imagined that Odinism would become part of the Delphi murder investigation (I do know it was rumored)? Regardless of what each of us believes on if it's related, the fact of the matter is that LE did have to investigate this angle. That's shocking to me. That they even had to talk to a professor of Norse mythology is just...baffling. That they had to do that makes me more curious if the FBI BAU did, in fact, determine that the killer had Norse beliefs. Somebody, somewhere, had to see something in the stick placement to even get the wheels rolling on this, IMO.

I'm not seeing anything in what the professor, TC, or anyone (other than the D's theory) said that suggests ritual sacrifice, though. And if the sticks really were placed in a rune-like array, like a fanboy Odinist wannabe might do (like what the professor said), that still doesn't make me automatically think ritual sacrifice. It makes me think a)the killer fashioned the sticks in a certain manner, maybe in a Norse-like way, or maybe someway we can't even understand, and that was part of a signature based on his deeper beliefs (unrelated to the killings), or b)he was trying to stage the scene to look like something it wasn't.

I tend more towards the signature idea, seeing as there are a few sources cited by the D to suggest Norse/runes/etc, and RI's "odd" comment. At the April 2019 PC, I always remember DC telling the killer that he thinks he still had a little bit of conscience left. I have always wondered if that might have been because the killer tried to cover up the bodies. So yes, maybe the sticks were just an attempt at that, but if it was done with some kind of pattern, whether rune or otherwise, perhaps that pattern was one of the signatures? IDK...just thinking.

 

[scapa]

Only corrupt, lying cops and conspiracy as accused by the Defense in their efforts to free their client. Nothing in the Memorandum has been verified 100% to the public only what the Defense is saying others have said, or their conclusions. You'd have to believe the local LE, ISP and FBI all colluded to hide this info. or frame RA. No way IMO.

RA was there on the Monon High Bridge by his own self admission on 2 occasions (2017 & 2022) and has confessed to the killings 5 times over the phone in calls to his wife and mother, not being coerced and influenced to admit such things during an interrogation.

There are reliable time frames of when the murders occurred by Libby's Snapchat photo of Abby and the recording of BG aka RA.

I don't think LE was involved in a coverup so much as they were trying to keep the highly grotesque manner and clues in which these young girls were killed as quiet as possible. Did they do a perfect job in this investigation? No, but I do think they did the best they could and have finally gotten their man.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

MOO

Agree, though I'd perhaps be more qualified in my conclusions, and say that while the investigators did not do the best job they might have, they've finally gotten their man.

I expect RA to be fairly tried and convicted, if he doesn't plea first, and hope that evidence produced during the process can become a case study that informs future investigations, especially with complex crimes in small jurisdictions.

 

[Miya]

I don’t believe they knew the defense would be pursuing this theory until after Liggett’s interview in August. He may or may not have even alerted the prosecutors- are we to believe the prosecution has every lead and possible theory that was investigated over 6 years? My understanding is once the memorandum came out and prosecution didn’t have the investigative evidence they pushed back to Holeman that went and found the professor and interviewed him stat.
Maybe Bergman can answer this- is it standard for prosecution to have the totality of investigation when it’s as vast as this?
I can imagine it’s documents take up a high school gym floor to ceiling.

Of course LE has to keep everything and keep all notes (these days with computers, it's also easy to find what you are looking for), if they didn't do that, if it ever comes to a trial and things are missing, that's a problem. If important things are missing, you can't even bring it to trial. That's why it's also a problem that is seems like they don't have chain of custody of the bullet. Unless they do and so far didn't give it to the defense.

I also doubt that if they talk to an _expert_ they'd just shred that and act like it never happened. Also, how many Professors can there be at this university that are experts in this field? How hard can it be to find him?

But the point is, they were lying, the prosecutor told the defense they are still looking for the Professor but couldn't find him and might never be able to identify him. While _at the same time_ Holeman was trying to set up an interview with the Professor, meaning, they already knew (and maybe always did) the Professor's name. The defense memo came out on September 18 and on September 19 (!) they not only knew who the Prof. was but Holeman interviewed him. What a coincidence ...

 

[Ravenmoon]

Who would have ever imagined that Odinism would become part of the Delphi murder investigation (I do know it was rumored)? Regardless of what each of us believes on if it's related, the fact of the matter is that LE did have to investigate this angle. That's shocking to me. That they even had to talk to a professor of Norse mythology is just...baffling. That they had to do that makes me more curious if the FBI BAU did, in fact, determine that the killer had Norse beliefs. Somebody, somewhere, had to see something in the stick placement to even get the wheels rolling on this, IMO.

I'm not seeing anything in what the professor, TC, or anyone (other than the D's theory) said that suggests ritual sacrifice, though. And if the sticks really were placed in a rune-like array, like a fanboy Odinist wannabe might do (like what the professor said), that still doesn't make me automatically think ritual sacrifice. It makes me think a)the killer fashioned the sticks in a certain manner, maybe in a Norse-like way, or maybe someway we can't even understand, and that was part of a signature based on his deeper beliefs (unrelated to the killings), or b)he was trying to stage the scene to look like something it wasn't.

I tend more towards the signature idea, seeing as there are a few sources cited by the D to suggest Norse/runes/etc, and RI's "odd" comment. At the April 2019 PC, I always remember DC telling the killer that he thinks he still had a little bit of conscience left. I have always wondered if that might have been because the killer tried to cover up the bodies. So yes, maybe the sticks were just an attempt at that, but if it was done with some kind of pattern, whether rune or otherwise, perhaps that pattern was one of the signatures? IDK...just thinking.

Why does this HAVE to be Odinism?
Because...
... maybe....RUNES????
What else suggest Odinism in particular?
I have Runes. Sometimes, I use them.
So what?
I don't worship Odin. I am not part of ANY supremacy group. I am not a follower of any Nordic religion.

My guess is that most rune owners, users are like me.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

My thoughts...take what you like and leave the rest...

At this point, no part of me believes this crime was done by any cult. That said, I think it is possible the killer(s) may have incorporated certain elements into their crime so that it appeared to have been done by someone with ties to a cult...it's hard to know without seeing the actual crime scene. Ultimately, I suspect that the crime scene is about power and control, and represents a long contemplated sick fantasy of a mad man (or men).

The things that stick out most about the description of the crime scene to me is actually not the possible cult symbols...it is the duality of the scene. One victim clean of blood, one not...one with clothing, one not...one possibly killed quickly, one likely killed slowly...blood from one victim present at the scene, blood from the other victim not present...it is a scene riddled with opposites. Perhaps duality is a signature for this killer(s)...which would likely also be reflective of the killer(s) himself I suspect...in that he himself is two different people (the person he pretends to be, and the person he actually is).

In the end I suspect the killer(s) did this ultimately because something is very wrong with them, and he/they enjoy killing. The rest is simply smoke and mirrors...meant for the killer(s) continued sick enjoyment of having played out their fantasy, and tortured law enforcement and the public in the process.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

Why does this HAVE to be Odinism?
Because...
... maybe....RUNES????
What else suggest Odinism in particular?
I have Runes. Sometimes, I use them.
So what?
I don't worship Odin. I am not part of ANY supremacy group. I am not a follower of any Nordic religion.

My guess is that most rune owners, users are like me.

JMO

That's what I'm trying to say. I think there was possibly something about the way the sticks were placed that didn't look random. If experts thought it looked Norse-like, then that's something for LE to consider, but that doesn't mean the killings have to be tied to Odinism. It could be some kind of pattern that only means something to the killer. Idk.