IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[iamnotagolem]

^BBM

I’ve heard this said a few times. Sorry to do this to you, but do you have a link for this statement?: “LE said they have no DNA linking RA to the crime scene.”

On page 129:

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193

 

[sunshineray]

I think I know your meaning here, but strictly speaking RA has been accused and charged with being the perpetrator.

He isn't the perpetrator until he has been actually convicted as such by the jury in the appointed court.

There's a long way to go until the trial by the looks of things.

I would agree with he's not officially the perpetrator until convicted by a jury but would tack on, or until he confesses. Depending on how the judge rules about these motions, I think it's still very possible RA may plea deal for his life and declare his guilt like he did to his mother and wife. Except this time it would be in court for all to hear, just like Edward "Jake" Rhoden wound up doing. It's still early days. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

On page 129:

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193

But apparently his own words have, numerous times, before and after his arrest.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I would agree with he's not officially the perpetrator until convicted by a jury but would tack on, or until he confesses. Depending on how the judge rules about these motions, I think it's still very possible RA may plea deal for his life and declare his guilt like he did to his mother and wife. Except this time it would be in court for all to hear, just like Edward "Jake" Rhoden wound up doing. It's still early days. AJMO

The State hasn't put the DP on the table yet so we don't know if they will or not.

For him, I don't see what the advantage would be to plead guilty, especially with 2 murder charges. What's left of his life would be pure heII any way you look at it.

 

[TL4S]

The State hasn't put the DP on the table yet so we don't know if they will or not.

For him, I don't see what the advantage would be to plead guilty, especially with 2 murder charges. What's left of his life would be pure heII any way you look at it.

I've been thinking about this too. If RA is guilty, and the D feels it likely they'll lose at trial based on evidence, then one benefit to pleading guilty would be to avoid any further details from coming out. My feeling is there is more to that CS than what is written in the memorandum...

Jmo.

 

[Miya]

From your post above:

“On Sept 6 the prosecutor told the defense they still couldn't find the Prof. and might not be able to ever identify him. WHILE AT THE SAME TIME Holeman already knew who the Prof. was and was in the process of setting up an interview with him. So "we couldn't find him and might never be able to identify him" was a lie.”

This is the defense’s interpretation and opinion of what happened here. It cannot be read as fact.

They didn't make this up, they have receipts. I don't get how people can't see the difference between when they say things that they actually have receipts for and that they would get in big trouble for if they lied and things that are their speculation and conclusions (meaning - opinions) from looking at the evidence. The latter will obviously be in defense of their client, so that part you have to take with a grain of salt.

Maybe you should look at the filing yourself, they quoted the letter from the prosecutor word for word, the one from Sept 6 where he claims they haven't found the Prof. yet and may never be able to identify him. So that's a fact. It's also a fact, if you read it, that Holeman already knew who the Prof. was and was already in the process of setting up an interview with him. Which happened on Sept 19, one day after the 136 page defense memo mentioning the Prof. was filed. That was quick.

 

[girlhasnoname]

On page 129:

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193

Welp, I'm gonna have to read or hear those direct words from JH before I believe what the Defense wrote in that Memo.

I most definitely believe the State has evidence tying RA to the scene.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

AC said a mouthful here:
2:14 mm
"Prosecution and law enforcement have the whole resources of the State and awesome powers to throw people in jail and ruin their lives."

That's why we scrutinize everything they say and do. MOO

And counterpoint, they also have the resources to put guilty murderers, rapists, child killers, gan bangers, dope dealers and many more bad actors in jail to help protect the general population.

Every LE officer is not clean nor every PD, look at the situation with George Floyd, Brianna Taylor and all the cases of police misconduct and brutality. It sickens me, but I still don't think it's fair to paint with such a broad brush stroke that all are bad.

MOO

 

[Notascreenname]

On page 129:

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193

Oh dear sounds like they're already trying to sway a future jury.

 

[SkyBoomer]

Oh dear sounds like they're already trying to sway a future jury.

I mean it is LITERALLY their job…..

 

[steeltowngirl]

On page 129:

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193

Has prosecution confirmed this allegation by defense?

 

[zh0r4]

Planted by whom?

IMO, the one unspent bullet is weird. I don’t necessarily think it was planted, but I’m not convinced ballistics can prove the specific gun an unspent bullet hypothetically fell out of. I’m not a ballistics expert, JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

And counterpoint, they also have the resources to put guilty murderers, rapists, child killers, gan bangers, dope dealers and many more bad actors in jail to help protect the general population.

Every LE officer is not clean nor every PD, look at the situation with George Floyd, Brianna Taylor and all the cases of police misconduct and brutality. It sickens me, but I still don't think it's fair to paint with such a broad brush stroke that all are bad.

MOO

I never said all are bad; I don't think that. But... how do you filter out the bad ones if you aren't paying attention to all of them?

 

[girlhasnoname]

I never said all are bad; I don't think that. But... how do you filter out the bad ones if you aren't paying attention to all of them?

Transparency is the key IMO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Has prosecution confirmed this allegation by defense?

I am skeptical about exactly what was said if I am being honest.

I mean, on pages 110 and 111, the defense had no issues with showing a copy of the transcripts from an interview.

Then, when we get to page 129 where the defense makes some accusations against Liggett, they only use or make available some footnotes.

Something more was said than we are able to read. Why would it take 3 lines for him to respond as to whether or not DNA linked RA to the crime scene. Especially considering the portions they made available for everyone to read were simple yes or no responses?


JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I've been thinking about this too. If RA is guilty, and the D feels it likely they'll lose at trial based on evidence, then one benefit to pleading guilty would be to avoid any further details from coming out. My feeling is there is more to that CS than what is written in the memorandum...

Jmo.

That's true. However, with a guilty plea, I think he loses his right to appeal anything except his sentence. Keeping the details secret could soothe his conscience, I suppose, by sparing all 3 families the details.

I also think we haven't seen the details of what only the killer knows. I wish P could say RA confessed to those.

 

[zh0r4]

Who would have ever imagined that Odinism would become part of the Delphi murder investigation (I do know it was rumored)? Regardless of what each of us believes on if it's related, the fact of the matter is that LE did have to investigate this angle. That's shocking to me. That they even had to talk to a professor of Norse mythology is just...baffling. That they had to do that makes me more curious if the FBI BAU did, in fact, determine that the killer had Norse beliefs. Somebody, somewhere, had to see something in the stick placement to even get the wheels rolling on this, IMO.

I'm not seeing anything in what the professor, TC, or anyone (other than the D's theory) said that suggests ritual sacrifice, though. And if the sticks really were placed in a rune-like array, like a fanboy Odinist wannabe might do (like what the professor said), that still doesn't make me automatically think ritual sacrifice. It makes me think a)the killer fashioned the sticks in a certain manner, maybe in a Norse-like way, or maybe someway we can't even understand, and that was part of a signature based on his deeper beliefs (unrelated to the killings), or b)he was trying to stage the scene to look like something it wasn't.

I tend more towards the signature idea, seeing as there are a few sources cited by the D to suggest Norse/runes/etc, and RI's "odd" comment. At the April 2019 PC, I always remember DC telling the killer that he thinks he still had a little bit of conscience left. I have always wondered if that might have been because the killer tried to cover up the bodies. So yes, maybe the sticks were just an attempt at that, but if it was done with some kind of pattern, whether rune or otherwise, perhaps that pattern was one of the signatures? IDK...just thinking.

JMO If anything in the D memo is legitimate: It is also possible the killer(s) positioned things in a certain way to try and mimic something they found cool (i.e., Odinism, Norse runes), something they wanted to be a part of (the alleged cult/group). Perhaps they felt this would impress others into letting them in this alleged group (which presumably was not true)? If this is the case though, why protect others that may potentially be involved? If there was more than one perp, and RA was one of them, why protect the other outsiders? It doesn’t make sense.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

JMO If anything in the D memo is legitimate: It is also possible the killer(s) positioned things in a certain way to try and mimic something they found cool (i.e., Odinism, Norse runes), something they wanted to be a part of (the alleged cult/group). Perhaps they felt this would impress others into letting them in this alleged group (which presumably was not true)? If this is the case though, why protect others that may potentially be involved? If there was more than one perp, and RA was one of them, why protect the other outsiders? It doesn’t make sense.

Even more head scratching is the defense's theory that Odinist cult of 2 members decides to include invite 3 new recruits to come to Delphi in the middle of the day for a ritualist human sacrifice. You know as indoctrination to the cult.

The more I read the memorandum and subsequent filings by defense the more I believe the odinist bait was only peppered into initial discovery because LE and prosecution knew it was a big old nothing burger. Defense would automatically think it was evidence being withheld and plan their whole defense around this crazy theory. Now Prosecution can spring the trap because defense is boxed in on their theory. JMO

 

[zh0r4]

I'm not sure I follow...the PCA said, "The Laboratory determined the unspent round located within two feet of Victim 2's body had been cycled through RA's Sig Sauer Model P226". Are you talking about them just not yet having put an expert on the stand to back up the statement, and/or presented the lab tests that were done?

JMO

My understanding of the PCA is the quote above saying RA specifically was from P.

p.6, PCA:

The laboratory remarked:

“An identification opinion is reached when the evidence exhibits an agreement of class characteristics and a sufficient agreement of individual marks. Sufficient agreement is related to the significant duplication of random striated/impressed marks as evidenced by the correspondence of a pattern or combination of patterns of surface contours. The interpretation of identification is subjective in nature, and based on relevant scientific research and the reporting examiner’s training and experience.”

MOO I don’t consider subjective opinions as fact, and would assume conclusions like these would not hold up under scrutiny/could be challenged by other experts in the same field. It would presumably be easier if the bullet was spent, (although still room for error then), but unspent bullet analysis used to convict someone of a double murder is reaching. JMO.

 

[Miya]

Has prosecution confirmed this allegation by defense?

The court has the deposition, so making things up that aren't in there and were never said wouldn't make any sense.