IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[NeverPersonal]

6 minute video
KG: the leaked crime scene photos were graphic and disturbing - Appeared to be authentic.

Delphi murders: Podcasters gave leaked photos to police | Banfield​

The lawyers representing a man accused in the 2017 killings of two girls in Delphi, Indiana, withdrew from the case Thursday in a move likely to further delay a potential trial. An investigation by “The Murder Sheet” podcast recently pointed to an alleged leak of sensitive crime scene evidence. Podcast hosts Kevin Greenlee and Áine Cain join "Banfield" with more details.

Anyone wondering about the leaker's MO should watch this. Kevin & Aine say that the screenshots they were provided with regarding the conversation attached to these images suggest that the person who was a "middle man" in providing said images to K & A's source, clearly indicated that it was believed these images would assist the defense.

 

[NeverPersonal]

It may not be right but nobody‘s come up with a better solution in hundreds of years. Society prefers that most people charged with murder are not freely mingling about. RA‘s in solitary so he’s safe from other prisoners who might be inclined to teach him a lesson. It is what it is.

Incorrect, it is abnormal for a pre-trial, non-convicted civilian to be incarcerated in a prison and under strict lock & key to the point of solitary confinement. They are normally housed in the county jail, with more freedoms and less intensity.

 

[iamshadow21]

It's still not right to have a person who has not been convicted of any crimes locked away in prison, in solitary confinement, pre-trial.

I never said anything about solitary. I said that he shouldn't be out on bail while awaiting trial. Those are very different things. As a matter of fact, I am also opposed to solitary confinement. Not seg, which is often needed to protect vulnerable inmates from violent ones, or prevent a violent inmate from hurting others, or medical supervision where an inmate might be physically or mentally ill or suicidal, but solitary where the person is completely confined and isolated and it's cruelly designed and calculated to break people. It's not humane and it is disproportionately used against certain demographics.

MOO

 

[Bergmann]

It’s the issues you claim are issues that I view as unknown.

Lol!

They’re from the states own PCA, therefore entered into court, therefore not unknown.

What they are is as yet untested. But that’s not what I said. These are clear issues for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

What is demonstrably unknown is the status of the Franks motion.

 

[MistyWaters]

Keep in mind…the charges themselves (Felony Murder) and the evidence thus far…doesn’t put the knife/edged weapon in RA’s hand. I have always felt if LE had something more in that regard (RA as a lone killer) they would have charged him with two counts of Intentional Murder instead, and two separate counts of kidnapping (four counts total). Evidence seems to point to RA having a role in the crime, but what that was exactly I think is up for debate at this point absent more evidence coming out.

In terms of history, details are scarce…but the police were called to RA’s home several years ago (pre 2017 if I recall correctly). He was taken to a hospital by his wife, and was not taken to jail.

No indications that there is any connection at this time (or if it is even factual)… However, there was a news report (the morning after police were called to RA’s home I believe) where a non-English speaking individual reported to a lawyer (who called police) that they believed they saw a body floating in a river in Delphi. DNR searched, but no body was found and no one was reported missing. Could be something, could be nothing.

There are at least two unsolved murders (pre 2017) in other States that I suspect may have some similarities to the Delphi crime, but neither location seems to have any connection to RA.

JMO

I know what you’ve expressed about felony murder is often repeated but this is one of the two charging documents (both are the same), from the bulk discovery release.

Although charge indeed combines both the kidnapping and murder, “did kill another human being” puts the murder weapon in RA’s hand. That says to me the prosecution must be certain there’s evidence to prove both the kidnapping and murder together at the hands of RA or they’d have pressed separate charges instead.

 

[NeverPersonal]

Snipped

Given that "snookered" was used in Indiana, I'm going with the U.S. definition.

Interesting choice of word for the situation, imo.

jmo

that is how I am taking it as well. Why would a long time close professional associate want to trick/trap Baldwin? That is the mystery we may never see solved.

I mean this respectfully - I think you guys are looking too deeply into the word choice. I believe AB's lawyer simply means that he was betrayed. He let this person close to him have access to the room and they chose to betray AB (allegedly). I think it's very much worth considering the possibility that the leaker didn't spontaneously do this without direction, as I'm sure many of you are.

 

[pseudo_hum]

I never said anything about solitary. I said that he shouldn't be out on bail while awaiting trial. Those are very different things. As a matter of fact, I am also opposed to solitary confinement. Not seg, which is often needed to protect vulnerable inmates from violent ones, or prevent a violent inmate from hurting others, or medical supervision where an inmate might be physically or mentally ill or suicidal, but solitary where the person is completely confined and isolated and it's cruelly designed and calculated to break people. It's not humane and it is disproportionately used against certain demographics.

MOO

Agreed, I would hate to see RA pull an FD.

 

[MistyWaters]

Lol!

They’re from the states own PCA, therefore entered into court, therefore not unknown.

What they are is as yet untested. But that’s not what I said. These are clear issues for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

What is demonstrably unknown is the status of the Franks motion.

Yes the source is the PCA but it certainly doesn’t identify any of the points as issues. The ex-D, who are no longer on the job, identified the issues without having reviewed the full discovery. Perhaps evidence and information contained within discovery totally satisfied the issues?

IMO it’s virtually impossible for any competent defense team to identify issues without first reviewing the full discovery file. Otherwise what’s the point of the prosecution being required to share it?

 

[Bergmann]

Kevin & Aine say that the screenshots they were provided with regarding the conversation attached to these images suggest that the person who was a "middle man" in providing said images to K & A's source, clearly indicated that it was believed these images would assist the defense.

Sorry but these pair have clearly been fed info and scoops by LE (IMO) and increasingly pushing the LE line as their opinion.

They have zero credibility as far as I’m concerned.

And they have some questions to answer in terms of how it was that the CS photos came to be in their possession.

 

[Bergmann]

Yes the source is the PCA but it certainly doesn’t identify any of the points as issues. The ex-D, who are no longer on the job, identified the issues without having reviewed the full discovery. Perhaps evidence and information contained within discovery totally satisfied the issues?

IMO it’s virtually impossible for any competent defense team to identify issues without first reviewing the full discovery file. Otherwise what’s the point of the prosecution being required to share it?

You don't need to read the whole discovery. The PCA is entered into court. The timeline given is far from beyond reasonable doubt and requires selective thinking to actually work, and that's before you get to Liggett altering witness testimony to fit the PCA narrative.

The bullet evidence is seriously flawed and highly contestable.

Having access to the rest of discovery won't change those known things.

what’s the point of the prosecution being required to share it?

Well for one reason to make sure that there is no hidden exculpatory evidence from P that hasn't been shared. Kind of basic 101.

 

[MistyWaters]

Sorry but these pair have clearly been fed info and scoops by LE (IMO) and increasingly pushing the LE line as their opinion.

They have zero credibility as far as I’m concerned.

And they have some questions to answer in terms of how it was that the CS photos came to be in their possession.

If they had kept silent their credibility would’ve been questioned even greater.

I don’t think those involved in the leak did not anticipate it would be thwarted so quickly, even less that MS would be involved and they’d reveal the details that originated with Baldwin. Hennessy’s brief fully supported their credibility.

Otherwise we would‘ve been blissfully unaware of a crime scene photo leak (I can say that for myself anyway) and Hennessy’s brief out of the blue would’ve really got conspiracy rumours flying. Without any background information at all it would’ve appeared on the surface as a malicious preplanned setup occurred to boot the defence off the case. Instead we learned they were their own downfall.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

You don't need to read the whole discovery. The PCA is entered into court. The timeline given is far from beyond reasonable doubt and requires selective thinking to actually work, and that's before you get to Liggett altering witness testimony to fit the PCA narrative.

The bullet evidence is seriously flawed and highly contestable.

Having access to the rest of discovery won't change those known things.



Well for one reason to make sure that there is no hidden exculpatory evidence from P that hasn't been shared. Kind of basic 101.

I‘m not going to argue evidence except to give one example why reviewing information in discovery should be important when defending a client. The memo only said RA didn’t state he was at the bridge from 1:30 to 3:30 to the CO, nothing more. So what did he say in other recorded interviews? Surely he was asked to state the time he was there plus what he claimed to do before and after? The transcript of those interviews would be contained in discovery.

Wouldn't the defence look quite stupid if they went with a 12-1:30pm timeline that contradicted what their client stated in recorded interviews to LE because they hadn’t bothered reviewing discovery?

It’s as if SM is tasked with identifying potential issues and adjudicating this case. It’s a real life murder case, the lives of two innocent teens was lost. I believe in allowing justice to run its course. JMO

 

[Bergmann]

Instead we learned they were their own downfall.

You missed JMO.

We have learned nothing until a full and proper investigation has been completed.

Until then then people will speculate within the realms of their own perspective.

 

[iamshadow21]

It’s pointless to debate what’s not known.

RSBM

Well, there go pretty much all my posts on WS. XD

 

[Bergmann]

I‘m not going to argue evidence except to give one example why reviewing information in discovery should be important when defending a client. The memo only said RA didn’t state he was at the bridge from 1:30 to 3:30 to the CO, nothing more. So what did he say in other recorded interviews? Surely he was asked to state the time he was there plus what he claimed to do before and after? The transcript of those interviews would be contained in discovery.

Wouldn't the defence look quite stupid if they went with a 12-1:30pm timeline that contradicted what their client stated in recorded interviews to LE because they hadn’t bothered reviewing discovery?

As I have said now several times, I’m not debating the unknown, I’m debating the known aspects of the P own case via it’s PCA.

Nothing to do with the D memo. You introduce that but I’ve already said ‘pre memo’.

 

[Bergmann]

JMO but if commentators could start with the evidence and work back from that there would be more Web Sleuthing than mere presumption of guilt and interpreting the evidence that fits.

 

[zh0r4]

Just a guess, but bringing in another agency seems like a good idea to me.

Let the local police focus on the murder part, and not this leaking problem.

Although come to think of it, ISP was involved in the first few months?

IDK, maybe fairly local @fallingdown can help us out.

jmho ymmv lrr

IMO The FBI would be the ideal agency to investigate.

 

[Bergmann]

IMO The FBI would be the ideal agency to investigate.

I’d rather they investigated the real crime which is the awful murder of these girls.

 

[MistyWaters]

As I have said now several times, I’m not debating the unknown, I’m debating the known aspects of the P own case via it’s PCA.

Nothing to do with the D memo. You introduce that but I’ve already said ‘pre memo’.

Well then I’ll put it this way….. I prefer not to engage in debate about what I personally consider to be unknown. If you choose to, that’s your prerogative. IMO settling issues within the confines of legal arguments is why hearings and trials interest me.

As we’ve often learned regarding this case, we don’t know as much as we think we know.

Who would’ve believed a week ago that the Oct 12th hearing would be the date that RA‘s defence team walked?

 

[MistyWaters]

I’d rather they investigated the real crime which is the awful murder of these girls.

“The Delphi Police Department, the Carroll County Sheriff, the Indiana State Police, and the FBI are asking for your assistance in identifying the suspect in the double homicide of two teenage girls, Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14, both from Delphi.”

Delphi Homicide Investigation

www.in.gov