IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169

[CGBSpender]

Thanks for the explanation. Yes I agree Felony Murder does not require proof of intent. I notice Indiana‘s criminal code is also a bit different to other places as there‘s no level of murder, 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree etc, which makes it far simpler as opposed to categorizing IMO.

So it also seems reasonable that prosecutors have charged RA under Section 35-42-1-1 (2) since it’s easier to prove the accused is responsible for kidnapping and murder than proving the murder was intentional, as well as conviction under that felony murder charge qualifies for the death penalty. Without strong evidence of intentional murder, if the two charges were applied separately it could risk a murderer of being convicted of kidnapping only.

JMO

2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 1. Homicide :: 35-42-1-1. Murder

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

Not quite. I don't believe the death penalty is an option in Indiana for Felony Murder alone. They would still need to prove knowledge or intent to kill (during the sentencing phase) if they want the death penalty on the table.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thanks for there explanation

That’s the thing I struggled with as even with those confidential Docs it’s not like they could of sold them as nobody in their right mind would touch them as you are jeopardizing the case where 2 Children were murdered.

As soon as you tell any right minded person what you have done they would go straight to the authorities. It’s all very strange and I hope the true story comes out whatever it may be.

Sadly Salah11, they could have sold those photos to media rags, or on the dark web and probably for a lot of $$$$.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

According to MS podcast, apparently there was a concerted effort to “protect” the source of the leak by making it appear as if it was directly connected to another leak that AB admitted responsibility to, that occurred this past spring. Because of this plan in place dotting it’s and crossing t’s he probably thought he’d get away with it.

But that still does not answer what the leakers got out of it. If nothing more, maybe it was just a sick game, the leaker challenging himself to acquire confidential information knowing of AB‘s lax care of confidentiality and trusting personality? The power of being in the centre of having and sharing confidential information that others were yearning to seek obviously meant more than the risk he took.

If the ex-employees name ever comes out, I’d bet people will have concerns involving possible integrity issues involved in their own business especially if he also was an attorney. The ramifications are not only to AB and RA but to AB’s law firm.

JMO

It's of enough significance that one on the leakers apparently committed suicide so I think is a lot darker than we know. How sick is it that we are even having this conversation? Just when you thought this case couldn't get crazier.....

Poor Abby & Libby have been exploited even in their death, first by the ridiculous Franks Memo and the gory CS details, which had nothing to do with the actual Franks Hearing, and secondly by the release of the CS photos to SM and God only knows who else.

I hope they throw the book at whomever was involved in this. It's heartbreaking for the families and loved ones of these girls.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

There are no docket updates yet.

I'm not understanding how NMcL was able to announce the RA confessions.
Wouldn't that have been sealed discovery?

That came out in Court when RA petitioned for a transfer and bail request.

 

[FrostedGlass]

That came out in Court when RA petitioned for a transfer and bail request.

I know it came out in court but how was OK for P to announce it in such a way that it would prejudice any potential jury? Why wasn't that sealed as part of discovery?

 

[Salah11]

Sadly Salah11, they could have sold those photos to media rags, or on the dark web and probably for a lot of $$$$.

JMO

Yes to be honest I didn’t even think of the dark web. You wouldn’t of thought Media Rags would touch them as too much to lose.

 

[mrjitty]

I know it came out in court but how was OK for P to announce it in such a way that it would prejudice any potential jury? Why wasn't that sealed as part of discovery?

Errr ….

As I recall it was the defence who first mentioned it in the courtroom and it was discussed by both counsel

Journalists who were in court reported it

Why would it prosecution be prevented from talking about it in court? It was relevant to aspects counsel were arguing in front of the judge.

Do you mean the judge should have banned any reporting of it?

Did the defence ask for it to be suppressed?

In reality it’s going to be admissible so I don’t see how there will be any prejudice

The judge was fine with all this being publicly available as is standard.

 

[mrjitty]

NMcL did not announce RA‘s confessions. If you recall the media petitioned the court to release a whole pile of previously sealed court documents, which in turn the Judge granted.

Delphi documents: Richard Allen told wife he killed girls; investigators believe knife used in murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Documents unsealed Wednesday in the 2017 Delphi murders provide new insight into the case against Richard Allen. They also reveal for the first time publicly how investigators believ…

fox59.com

iIRC the defence also mentioned the confessions in oral argument before the judge. As journalists were in court they reported on it even before the documents were released.

Tldr

The judge has not sealed this type of evidence. Why would she?

 

[mrjitty]

I am still stunned at the scale of failure by Baldwin here. How does this happen?

I am troubled by his exit being off the record. I don’t see how this happened without him filing a request. But the more I think about it the more I think he could not have stayed on the case.

My problem is the arguments for him to stay or go should be on the record.

 

[MistyWaters]

I sadly agree with you @iamshadow21 . It's such a horrible thought, but the reality is that is happens every day in CSAM on the web and dark web. There is a market for this abomination for the right price.

ETA: MOO

Pathetic as it is, I’ve no doubt. But in this case the alleged intent for these leaks was to disseminate the photos and information on FB. How that would potentially benefit the defense’s cause, nobody is saying. At best it certainly created an opportunity for the D-team to exit in a great flurry.

The reason I think there’s more yet coming down is because BR withdrew as well. It would’ve caused far less impact to RA’s case if he’d remained on and the Judge simply appointed a different co-counsel to replace AB.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

IIRC the defence are a team so Rozzi would not stay on by himself as a practical matter.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I am still stunned at the scale of failure by Baldwin here. How does this happen?

I am troubled by his exit being off the record. I don’t see how this happened without him filing a request. But the more I think about it the more I think he could not have stayed on the case.

My problem is the arguments for him to stay or go should be on the record.

AB's attorney submitted a 5 page memorandum to the Judge about him not wanting to be removed. It was posted towards the end of the last thread. They met with the Judge in chambers at 10 am when the original motion was going to be discussed at 2:00.

I have no doubt that in such a big, and seldom made decision, there is a record and will probably be entered into the case file under seal. Just my thoughts.

MOO

ETB: Corrected word

 

[girlhasnoname]

I know it came out in court but how was OK for P to announce it in such a way that it would prejudice any potential jury? Why wasn't that sealed as part of discovery?

That was done in open court, people attended and it was reported by the media.

 

[mrjitty]

AB's attorney submitted a 5 page letter/argument to the Judge about him not wanting to be removed. It was posted towards the end of the last thread. They met with the Judge in chambers at 10 am when the original motion was going to be discussed at 2:00.

I have no doubt that in such a big, and seldom made decision, there is a record and will probably be entered into the case file under seal. Just my thoughts.

MOO

According to the judge he made his request to withdraw as an oral application in chambers.

There is no written motion to my knowledge.

 

[MistyWaters]

iIRC the defence also mentioned the confessions in oral argument before the judge. As journalists were in court they reported on it even before the documents were released.

Tldr

The judge has not sealed this type of evidence. Why would she?

Yes you could be right. It was certainly widely reported after the documents were released, that’s for sure.

I agree, no reason for his prison confession to be sealed given since discussion of it by both sides occurred during an open hearing for a motion introduced by the defence regarding his prison woes. This is an example of transparency, there’s no publication ban in place here nor is it likely it there ever will be.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

IIRC the defence are a team so Rozzi would not stay on by himself as a practical matter.

Well yes but team members come and go in the normal course of events without disbanding the entire team each time.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Errr ….

As I recall it was the defence who first mentioned it in the courtroom and it was discussed by both counsel

Journalists who were in court reported it

Why would it prosecution be prevented from talking about it in court? It was relevant to aspects counsel were arguing in front of the judge.

Do you mean the judge should have banned any reporting of it?

Did the defence ask for it to be suppressed?

In reality it’s going to be admissible so I don’t see how there will be any prejudice

The judge was fine with all this being publicly available as is standard.

Thank you for your answer. I'm always humbled by the expertise here.

I read opinions that the D brought it up first to get ahead of P's announcement of the confessions. I don't know at what point D found out about the confessions or when they learned that P planned on bringing them up.

I have no idea why D didn't ask for them to be suppressed; maybe there was a time constraint. Additionally, I don't think we have documents for all the motions to suppress and I'm not even sure the judge issued orders on all of them.

Regarding the part I bolded in red: a lot of folks here have been really upset that the memorandum and the leaks will prejudice any potential jury. In reality, all of that will probably be admissible, too.

So I'm not understanding why one thing is prejudicial but not another?

 

[MistyWaters]

I know it came out in court but how was OK for P to announce it in such a way that it would prejudice any potential jury? Why wasn't that sealed as part of discovery?

Just to clarify, the definition of discovery is loosely defined as all the evidence including interrogations and documents ‘discovered’ during the investigation that led to charges being filed. All discovery is sealed, protected by confidentiality agreements, which why the recent leak is a big deal.

That’s quite different than testimony or records introduced at an open hearing.

 

[stargazer17]

Do you happen to have (if so, could provide) date or title of the podcast? I enjoy listening to the prosecutors podcast and would be really interested in listening; however, wasn't able to locate a recent one featuring MS. TIA

You can watch it on their YouTube channel.

 

[girlhasnoname]

According to the judge he made his request to withdraw as an oral application in chambers.

There is no written motion to my knowledge.