IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Regarding the part I bolded in red: a lot of folks here have been really upset that the memorandum and the leaks will prejudice any potential jury. In reality, all of that will probably be admissible, too.

So I'm not understanding why one thing is prejudicial but not another?
One way to get a read on it, would be to comb through social media comments from people who are representative of a potential jury pool...and see what they are saying. How are these things being reported on by the media shaping their opinions? Reading comments of people who follow the case closely in specific social media groups, and read 136 page memos for fun probably won't do it...those are not people who will generally make it through the voir dire process.

Something else worth noting...I believe in State Court in Indiana, you can have a prior felony conviction, and as long as your voting rights have been resorted, you can be summoned for jury duty. Many States are stricter on who can serve, and it unfortunately really narrows down the potential jury pool in those States.

I am of the opinion that I don't think they will have a problem seating a jury out of a pool of people pulled from Allen County, Indiana.

JMO
 
I'm going to venture a guess that the parties probably went on the record in chambers at some point. Just because they didn't go on the record in open court, doesn't mean that a record was not still made.

JMO

right but it's an oral application. so by definition AB did not file a written motion that is on the record. nor was it in open court where it would be in the transcript.

So unless the judge actually files some kind of written 'judgement' or memorandum to record the arguments and the decision we will never have anything 'on the record' beyond what we have now, unless Rozzi's motion gives us an inkling.
 
right but it's an oral application. so by definition AB did not file a written motion that is on the record. nor was it in open court where it would be in the transcript.

So unless the judge actually files some kind of written 'judgement' or memorandum to record the arguments and the decision we will never have anything 'on the record' beyond what we have now, unless Rozzi's motion gives us an inkling.

Judges can, and often do, have a court reporter present in these private sessions to make an official record of what went on.
 
I do believe that removing his defense counsel could prove to be extremely problematic. Unless Baldwin was directly involved in this leak, and I do not believe he was because it makes no sense that he would be, removing him is not the smart answer imo. Forcing him to request withdrawal or be faced with removal is tantamount to removal. Once Baldwin was gone, Rozzi likely asked to be released knowing that any new counsel has no obligation to follow their theory.

It's bad all around imo. Not only is this trial on hold yet again, but if he's convicted, there may be an appealable issue here for ineffective assistance of counsel, especially if the defense theory is changed. His defense team was invested and put in a ton of work and this is actually good for the victims' families. This decision hurts the families just as much as it hurts the defense.They must feel like this will never end.
jmo
 
Call me jaded, but what if AB was directly involved in the leak? It was reported that he was consulting with the former employee who leaked. It was also reported that this former employee wanted to give the defense a fair fight. Maybe that was their strategy; AB knew he couldn’t be the leak, so what if they hatched the plan together while he was consulting his friend/former employee? And why does one tender a verbal withdrawal, anyway? IMHO, it’s because resign or be fired. Sounds like he wasn’t prepared to possibly resign and had to do it on the spot. All purely speculation and MOO.
 
I do believe that removing his defense counsel could prove to be extremely problematic. Unless Baldwin was directly involved in this leak, and I do not believe he was because it makes no sense that he would be, removing him is not the smart answer imo. Forcing him to request withdrawal or be faced with removal is tantamount to removal. Once Baldwin was gone, Rozzi likely asked to be released knowing that any new counsel has no obligation to follow their theory.

It's bad all around imo. Not only is this trial on hold yet again, but if he's convicted, there may be an appealable issue here for ineffective assistance of counsel, especially if the defense theory is changed. His defense team was invested and put in a ton of work and this is actually good for the victims' families. This decision hurts the families just as much as it hurts the defense.They must feel like this will never end.
jmo
I feel D was involved by contributory negligence. Allowing someone not in direct employ in the defense of this case to have access to extremely sensitive photographs and information is more than a slight oversight it’s a hefty offense. Especially if/when the investigation finds out just how many it was ultimately distributed to and possibly included compensation.
To me, it speaks to the overall fast and loose and often chaotic handling of this defense team from day one.
IMO they didn’t perform in the best interest of their client. Ultimately, how could they bring errors of P out in trial when the D had such a colossal wreck of their own doing. Splinter<Log.
 
I feel D was involved by contributory negligence. Allowing someone not in direct employ in the defense of this case to have access to extremely sensitive photographs and information is more than a slight oversight it’s a hefty offense. Especially if/when the investigation finds out just how many it was ultimately distributed to and possibly included compensation.
To me, it speaks to the overall fast and loose and often chaotic handling of this defense team from day one.
IMO they didn’t perform in the best interest of their client. Ultimately, how could they bring errors of P out in trial when the D had such a colossal wreck of their own doing. Splinter<Log.

Yeah I’d agree, it sure looks like the ex-D were in over their heads. RA deserves competent defense. The prior leak of discovery listing, then this latest one, the press release which initiated the gag order, the memo requiring the judge to issue a protective order since it included a description of the crime scene and victims bodies, repetitive motions….it may‘ve have been a good thing this case didn’t make it to trial if this was only the beginning.
 
BTW anyone else see a glaring conflict of interest in the same LE who are being litigated against for misconduct with regard to the SW, are now investigating the D attorneys for criminal actions in same case...?

Is this how law works in Indiana?
Are you calling the fact that the former attorneys of RA filed a Franks motion and within that memorandum they outright accused some LE of misdeeds on a SW...a litigation? Defense attorneys, often more times than not, fight a SW in pretrial motions often accusing LE of getting it wrong and asking it be thrown out. Those motions are a dime a dozen and not quite litigation, as in a lawsuit.

It's also the ISP investigating the leaks not Carroll County LE. I don't believe RA's former lawyers even had their office in Carroll County, did they? So the now Sheriff of Carroll County, mentioned in that motion, is not investigating the leaks.
 
Just wondering:
D can argue the confessions should not be in evidence; should court agree, ... court can instruct jury not to consider jailhouse confessions?
The Defense can argue to suppress the jailhouse recorded calls to his wife and mother and they surely will.

RA was not being interrogated at the time, not under duress by LE or the CO's (they have him on video surveillance 24/7) so no, I think it will be close to impossible that those are not allowed into court and will be an important part of the Prosecutions case.

JMO
 
right but it's an oral application. so by definition AB did not file a written motion that is on the record. nor was it in open court where it would be in the transcript.

So unless the judge actually files some kind of written 'judgement' or memorandum to record the arguments and the decision we will never have anything 'on the record' beyond what we have now, unless Rozzi's motion gives us an inkling.
I feel confident that there will be a written argument on such a monumental decision. This is a seasoned Judge, she is going to protect the record and the case.

MOO
 
Looks like we've all got our theories as to the circumstances surrounding AB 'withdrawal' last week!

So far there are quite a few things about that which aren't clear/ transparent/ understood -

a. What was the original intended purpose, specific agenda and scope of the planned hearing? (ie beyond 'status')
b. What was in the various filings to the court ahead of the planned hearing - eg from state/ NMcL?
c. Why were DC and a bunch of other LE lined up in the jury box - were they to be called as witnesses and more importantly to what end/ motion?
d. What exactly happened in chambers? (apart from 'a lot happened' lol)
e. Will we see a written account of what happened in chambers as @girlhasnoname helpfully suggests?
f. How is it that AB was allowed to withdraw orally, and BR via later written argument, without RA being present in court (chambers in this case where the 'non-motion' occurred?) to make him aware/ get his agreement?
g. Doesn't this go against his constitutional rights (by not being present)?
h. What was J Gull proposing to then cover in the hearing (relative to point a.)

Because of the uncertainty and lack of established record, I can't come up with a definitive picture of what happened at this stage as much as anyone else can't, but it does looks to me like AB had originally come prepared with HH to argue against being thrown off the D, and was looking to negotiate some kind of lesser punishment from the J for the second leak from his office.

[Speculating -]
When they arrive in chambers at 10am ish this plan goes out the window. Maybe NMcL has something in his motion which points to D breaking bar rules and ABs talking about RA case with others and breaking confidentiality rules etc.

J Gull says something to the effect that as these are serious allegations they need to be heard in court. Maybe that's what DC et al were there for - to testify what they knew with regard to these allegations as witnesses.

AB argues along the lines that this is 'trial by ambush' etc, and that he has not been afforded with either the allegations or the evidence in advance and therefore not been given opportunity to prepare a proper D against these.

Also I can't imagine with that being the case, that AB would have savoured the proposition of being put on trial and have the opposing P and LE give testimony against him in open court and also live TV. AB seems like a pretty thick skinned D attorney so he's probably used to criticism and flak, but maybe not to this extent.

Maybe AB decided that the prospect of a live TV grilling and dressing down was too much, that his credibility to try the case would be irreparably damaged and that would diminish his ability to represent RA and so he had to step down for the benefit of his client?

Maybe AB stepped down because he felt the case was now becoming about him and that he had to remove himself etc?

Also a public hearing of the allegations would likely have triggered an investigation by the Indiana Judicial Commission on attorney misconduct - maybe AB saw withdrawing as the only option to avoid that.

Don't know - again just speculating. I'm not trying to be kind or scathing of AB or any of the actors here - merely trying to make sense of a pretty unusual situation. This isn't normal.

Rozzi is clearly furious. You can see the look on his face as he heads out of chambers into the court room and collect members of RAs families and to my eyes 'storms out' of the courtroom.

HH then comes out to the media saying AB was 'co-erced to withdraw' - maybe that's the way he sees it but yet to be materially proved by an account of what did or didn't occur in chambers.

I'm not an expert by any means on Indiana State Law, but I'll take a guess that this isn't how it is intended to be applied or delivered!

Don't envy J Gull in writing the docket for the hearing thing that happened.
 
One way to get a read on it, would be to comb through social media comments from people who are representative of a potential jury pool...and see what they are saying. How are these things being reported on by the media shaping their opinions? Reading comments of people who follow the case closely in specific social media groups, and read 136 page memos for fun probably won't do it...those are not people who will generally make it through the voir dire process.

Something else worth noting...I believe in State Court in Indiana, you can have a prior felony conviction, and as long as your voting rights have been resorted, you can be summoned for jury duty. Many States are stricter on who can serve, and it unfortunately really narrows down the potential jury pool in those States.

I am of the opinion that I don't think they will have a problem seating a jury out of a pool of people pulled from Allen County, Indiana.

JMO
Even with having rights restored, it's still pretty restrictive. IMO I was curious as to what percentage of that group would make it through the voir dire process and found a 127 pg report (which I did not read).

I'm curious why you're confident about a jury from Allen Co.
 
It's hard to determine what the next court date is going to cover by going through the docket entries. These are just for Aug and Sept. If a "filed by" date is within a day or two of the date in the left column, I omit it to conserve space. I also omitted the lengthy list of media in the motion for broadcasting. I haven't found any entry as to if the Praecipe for Transcript has been received.

08/08/2023Praecipe for Transcript Filed
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
08/08/2023Administrative Event
Praecipe for Transcript to Allen County D05 Court Reporter and Felony Judicial Assistant.
09/14/2023Motion Filed
Motion for Broadcasting Order
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
09/14/2023Amended Pleading Filed
Amended Motion to Suppress Fruits of Search of 1967 North Whiteman Drive, Delphi, Indiana
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
09/18/2023Motion for Hearing Filed
Motion for Franks Hearing
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
09/18/2023Motion Filed
Verified Motion for Immediate Transfer of Custody
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
09/25/2023Notice to Court Filed
Notice of Non-Party Request for News Media Access and Statement in Support for Defendant's Motion for Broadcasting
09/25/2023Response Filed
State's Response to Defendant's Motion for Broadcasting Order.
Filed By: State of Indiana
09/25/2023Objection Filed
State's 2nd Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress.
Filed By: State of Indiana
09/25/2023Request for Subpoena Duces Tecum Filed
State's Motion for Leave of Court to Subpoena Third-Party Records.
Filed By: State of Indiana
09/25/2023Request for Subpoena Duces Tecum Filed
State's Motion for Leave of Court to Subpoena Third-Party Records.
Filed By: State of Indiana
09/25/2023Petition Filed
State files Verified Request to Prohibit Public Access to a Court Record.
Filed By: State of Indiana
09/25/2023Motion Filed
Motion for All Future Pleadings and Filings to be Sealed for the Court's Review Before Being Released to the Public.
Filed By: State of Indiana
 
New Murder Sheet episode, interview with leaker recorded March 2023.

 
Here are the Oct. entries; I deleted the e-notices and edited her very lengthy orders on cameras and rules/guidelines to save space.

10/02/2023Motion Filed
Supplemental Motion for Franks Hearing
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/02/2023Motion Filed
Motion for Discovery Deadline
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/03/2023Motion Filed
Defendant's Additional Franks Notice
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/10/2023Motion to Quash Filed
Motion to Quash Subpoena
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/10/2023Motion to Quash Filed
Motion to Quash Subpoena
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/10/2023Response to a Petition Filed
State's Response to Motion for Discovery
Filed By: State of Indiana
10/10/2023Response to a Petition Filed
State's Response to Defense's Verified Motion for Immediate Transfer
Filed By: State of Indiana
10/10/2023Order Issued
The Court having reviewed Defendant Allen's Motion for Discovery Deadline, the Court now orders the following: without objection by the State. The State of Indiana must produce all discovery to defense counsel on or before November 1, 2023.
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/12/2023Correspondence to/from Court Filed
Correspondence to Court
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/12/2023Order Issued
On the Courts motion, this cause is ordered set for status hearing on October 19, 2023 at 2:00 p.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Counsel ordered to arrange their schedules to appear. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the up coming hearing on October 31, 2023 and other matters which have recently arisen. Court will prepare a transport order to have Defendant appear.
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/12/2023Transport Order Entered
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/16/2023Hearing Scheduling Activity
Status Hearing scheduled for 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM.
10/16/2023Hearing Scheduling Activity
Status Hearing originally scheduled on 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM was rescheduled to 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM. Reason: Data Entry Error.
10/17/2023Order Issued
...
The Court has determined that allowing recording of the October 19, 2023, hearing is permitted provided that the means of recording will not distract the participants or impair the dignity of the proceedings, and the hearing itself is a non-confidential proceeding. The Court, therefore, authorizes the recording and broadcasting of the hearing set for October 19, 2023.
...
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/17/2023Order Issued
This case has generated substantial public interest and media attention. In light of this, and on the Court's own motion to ensure the integrity of the proceedings, to protect the Defendant's constitutional rights for due process, to ensure the safety of the parties and the public, and to permit public access to criminal proceedings, the Court sets forth the following rules and guidelines for the hearing set for Thursday, October 19, 2023, in the Allen Superior Court.
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
Order Signed: 10/17/2023
10/19/2023Status Hearing
Session: 10/19/2023 2:00 PM, Rescheduled
Session: 10/19/2023 2:00 PM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
Comment: To be held in Allen Superior D05
10/19/2023Affidavit Filed
Affidavit
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/19/2023Temporary/Limited Scope Appearance Filed
Limited Appearance Form
For Party: Allen, Richard M.
10/19/2023Memorandum/Brief Filed
MEMORANDUM REGARDING POSSIBLE DISQUALIFICATION OR SANCTIONS
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/23/2023Hearing Scheduling Activity
Hearing scheduled for 10/31/2023 at 9:00 AM.
10/31/2023Hearing
Session: 10/31/2023 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
 
Here are the Oct. entries; I deleted the e-notices and edited her very lengthy orders on cameras and rules/guidelines to save space.

10/02/2023Motion Filed
Supplemental Motion for Franks Hearing
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/02/2023Motion Filed
Motion for Discovery Deadline
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/03/2023Motion Filed
Defendant's Additional Franks Notice
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/10/2023Motion to Quash Filed
Motion to Quash Subpoena
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/10/2023Motion to Quash Filed
Motion to Quash Subpoena
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/10/2023Response to a Petition Filed
State's Response to Motion for Discovery
Filed By: State of Indiana
10/10/2023Response to a Petition Filed
State's Response to Defense's Verified Motion for Immediate Transfer
Filed By: State of Indiana
10/10/2023Order Issued
The Court having reviewed Defendant Allen's Motion for Discovery Deadline, the Court now orders the following: without objection by the State. The State of Indiana must produce all discovery to defense counsel on or before November 1, 2023.
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/12/2023Correspondence to/from Court Filed
Correspondence to Court
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/12/2023Order Issued
On the Courts motion, this cause is ordered set for status hearing on October 19, 2023 at 2:00 p.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Counsel ordered to arrange their schedules to appear. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the up coming hearing on October 31, 2023 and other matters which have recently arisen. Court will prepare a transport order to have Defendant appear.
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/12/2023Transport Order Entered
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/16/2023Hearing Scheduling Activity
Status Hearing scheduled for 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM.
10/16/2023Hearing Scheduling Activity
Status Hearing originally scheduled on 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM was rescheduled to 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM. Reason: Data Entry Error.
10/17/2023Order Issued
...
The Court has determined that allowing recording of the October 19, 2023, hearing is permitted provided that the means of recording will not distract the participants or impair the dignity of the proceedings, and the hearing itself is a non-confidential proceeding. The Court, therefore, authorizes the recording and broadcasting of the hearing set for October 19, 2023.
...
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
10/17/2023Order Issued
This case has generated substantial public interest and media attention. In light of this, and on the Court's own motion to ensure the integrity of the proceedings, to protect the Defendant's constitutional rights for due process, to ensure the safety of the parties and the public, and to permit public access to criminal proceedings, the Court sets forth the following rules and guidelines for the hearing set for Thursday, October 19, 2023, in the Allen Superior Court.
Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
Order Signed: 10/17/2023
10/19/2023Status Hearing
Session: 10/19/2023 2:00 PM, Rescheduled
Session: 10/19/2023 2:00 PM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ
Comment: To be held in Allen Superior D05
10/19/2023Affidavit Filed
Affidavit
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/19/2023Temporary/Limited Scope Appearance Filed
Limited Appearance Form
For Party: Allen, Richard M.
10/19/2023Memorandum/Brief Filed
MEMORANDUM REGARDING POSSIBLE DISQUALIFICATION OR SANCTIONS
Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
10/23/2023Hearing Scheduling Activity
Hearing scheduled for 10/31/2023 at 9:00 AM.
10/31/2023Hearing
Session: 10/31/2023 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ

I note that the 30 days to respond to the motion requesting a Franks hearing is almost up.

Does that mean that we can expect a response from J Gull soon, or if not is the matter then applicable for referral to a superior court?
 
I note that the 30 days to respond to the motion requesting a Franks hearing is almost up.

Does that mean that we can expect a response from J Gull soon, or if not is the matter then applicable for referral to a superior court?
I don't know. Her responses take longer than in many of the other cases I've watched. One took 2 months.
I'm not aware of any other court that would look into the matter.
 
I don't know. Her responses take longer than in many of the other cases I've watched. One took 2 months.
I'm not aware of any other court that would look into the matter.

In an article I read - and did not copy to my notes - there was a sentence that said the Judge would address the Franks hearing at this 10/31 hearing. At least that is what I recall.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
69
Guests online
1,896
Total visitors
1,965

Forum statistics

Threads
600,140
Messages
18,104,583
Members
230,991
Latest member
lyle.person1
Back
Top