IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

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Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
Link to Media Maps & Timelines #2 *No Discussion*

IMAGE Discussion Thread

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Sillybilly]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Mod Note:
For general JBC II discussions please use his thread. In Abby & Libby’s thread, JBC II should only be discussed in the context of a possible connection to Abby & Libby’s case.
Thanks Everyone!

JBC II Thread:
IN - James Chadwell II, 42, arrested after girl 9, found in his home, Lafayette, 19 Apr 2021 #3

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[MadMcGoo]

MOD NOTE:

There has been a major cleanup on this thread tonight due to numerous TOS violations. Here are the RULES we all agreed to upon joining this site.

We have a thread dedicated to KAK HERE. If you have an update specific to any of his current charges, pending charges or news, it is to be posted on that thread. For example, dismissals, court appearances, etc.

This is an example of an article and subject matter that may be brought up for discussion on this thread. This pertains to KAK and Abby’s and Libby’s cases. Although sources such as this are approved, you personally have the right to decide how much credibility you give to them. Nevertheless, they remain approved sources here on Websleuths.

Regardless of what is posted in ANY approved source, RA’s family (to include photos) are completely off limits as of this post. They are victims. PERIOD.

If you’re going to reference or discuss a topic (even if it’s been brought up before), a link to an approved source must be provided. Otherwise, don’t mention it.

Decisions made by officials may not sit well with us, but they’re most often made for a reason.

And lastly, STAY ON TOPIC. Please and THANK YOU!

- Mad

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

 

[MadMcGoo]

MOD NOTE:

If your post begins with any of the following, IT IS LIKELY AT RISK OF BEING REMOVED, along with any of its replies. Please take the time to find an approved source link to accompany the information you post.

“I thought I read somewhere…”

“I seem to remember hearing…”

“I’m not sure if I can bring this up, but…”

“I can’t remember where I heard this…”

OR

“This is just a rumor…”

Thanks,
Mad

 

[MadMcGoo]

Continue the discussion here.

 

[FromGermany1]

RI talked about "signatures." Two or three, three or four, whatever it was. I think A being redressed in L's clothes while L was left nude could likely be a signature. Jmo.

Placing the sticks on them...? I'm not convinced that's a signature unless RI felt the placement was symbolic of something. Just from what we've heard about the CS, through the FM, GH's description of the leaked photos, etc., I'm just not finding two to four signatures or an "odd" CS. At least from the perspective of a likely sexually motivated homicide. This is why I'm guessing there are a lot more details within the CS and bodies to maybe point to someone specific. I think digital evidence might be the key then (think some kind of specific fetish, for example), and at this point, we simply don't know what digital evidence they have against RA, unrelated to the girls or Odinism, etc. Jmo.

bbm

If it was a signature to redress one victim with the clothing of the other victim, it was perp's urgent desire to fullfill his absurd phantasy. Now I would like to learn (if it would be possible - unfortunately probably it is not) of the little cousins Liz and Lyric in Iowa in 2012: had one of the girls also been redressed with clothing, which didn't belong to her?

 

[mrjitty]

@FrostedGlass

I'm sure you've heard the term "false confessions" and the variety of circumstances they happen under.
On a scale of 1 -10, how important is a confession for the P IYO?

I certainly know about coerced confessions in the interrogation context (we studied this in evidence). And of course confessions/admissions in other contexts (hearsay exception etc)

But I don't think i've come across a confession in a recorded prison call. I have seen damaging admissions in such a call. In McStay the killer foolishly discussed some stuff relevant to the case on a prison phone.

If he's outright confessed to it then i guess it is a killer piece of evidence - you don't normally go to trial with the defendant just straight up telling someone he did it on tape.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@FrostedGlass



I certainly know about coerced confessions in the interrogation context (we studied this in evidence). And of course confessions/admissions in other contexts (hearsay exception etc)

But I don't think i've come across a confession in a recorded prison call. I have seen damaging admissions in such a call. In McStay the killer foolishly discussed some stuff relevant to the case on a prison phone.

If he's outright confessed to it then i guess it is a killer piece of evidence - you don't normally go to trial with the defendant just straight up telling someone he did it on tape.

I guess we can both agree that it was sure lucky for McLeland that he got what he needed. It might not be as good as he hoped for but it might be enough.

 

[Jurisprudence]

RELATORS’ MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE RESPONSE TO RESPONDENT’S AND ATTORNEY GENERAL’S OBJECTIONS

"Relator, by counsel, respectfully requests that this Court allow Relator the opportunity to respond to both Respondent’s and the Attorney General’s objections to Relator’s petition for a writ of mandamus. In support of this motion, Relator states the following: ..."

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[legalmomma]

On Thursday, lawyers representing Allen in the Indiana Supreme Court case filed a response and disagreed with both Rokita and Gull’s reasoning.

Richard Allen disagrees with Judge Gull, AG Rokita’s findings; continues push for Indiana Supreme Court to step in

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Richard Allen, the man accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi in 2017, disagrees with Judge Fran Gull and Indiana Attorney General Todd Rokita’s re…

fox59.com

 

[sunshineray]

On Thursday, lawyers representing Allen in the Indiana Supreme Court case filed a response and disagreed with both Rokita and Gull’s reasoning.

Richard Allen disagrees with Judge Gull, AG Rokita’s findings; continues push for Indiana Supreme Court to step in

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Richard Allen, the man accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi in 2017, disagrees with Judge Fran Gull and Indiana Attorney General Todd Rokita’s re…

fox59.com

Looks like the AG is of the same mind as the judge and even believes the crime scene photos investigation probably constitutes a conflict of interest with the old defense attorneys. Interesting.

 

[zh0r4]

Looks like the AG is of the same mind as the judge and even believes the crime scene photos investigation probably constitutes a conflict of interest with the old defense attorneys. Interesting.

This isn’t a good look for JG, would have probably been better if the AG didn’t get involved since already in hot water himself. JMO

bbm

November 28, 2023

“Weeks after being public reprimanded, Indiana Attorney General Todd Rokita is—again—under investigation by the Indiana Supreme Court Disciplinary Commission for the statement he made after signing the affidavit to settle his previous disciplinary complaint.

According to letters Indianapolis attorneys Paula Cardoza-Jones and William Groth received from the disciplinary commission and shared with The Indiana Citizen, a preliminary investigation has been opened into Rokita for alleged misconduct. Both Cardoza-Jones and Groth filed separate grievances, independent of each other, with the disciplinary commission.

Rokita must now provide a written response to allegations that he violated two rules of professional conduct. After reviewing the grievances and Rokita’s response, the commission could dismiss the matter altogether or conduct a further investigation and present its findings to the full disciplinary commission. If the matter is presented to the full commission, the members will then decide whether Rokita engaged in misconduct that warrants a disciplinary action.

The commission is paying special attention to Cardoza-Jones’ grievance.

Specifically, the disciplinary commission is investigating whether Rokita violated Indiana Professional Conduct Rules 3.3(a)(1) and 8.4(c). The former rule prohibits a lawyer from knowingly making a false statement of fact to a tribunal—in this case, the Indiana Supreme Court. The latter defines professional misconduct for a lawyer as engaging in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation.

Cardoza-Jones asserted that Rokita violated the rules by making false statements in his affidavit. That affidavit supported the conditional agreement that the Indiana Supreme Court accepted to resolve the previous complaint the commission had filed against him.

“The Commission agreed to and the Court narrowly approved a very generous (conditional agreement), finding, ‘Respondent’s acceptance of responsibility is a mitigating factor,’” Cardoza-Jones wrote in her grievance. “Rokita, however, has not accepted responsibility for his misconduct. In his Website Response, filed immediately after the Court’s decision, he denied any misconduct and paints himself as a victim of the media, liberal activists and cancel culture, among others. By implication, he includes the Commission and the Court among his perceived unjust persecutors.”

The Indiana Citizen reached out Monday afternoon to Attorney General Rokita’s office for a comment and gave the deadline of 8 a.m. Tuesday to respond. The office asked Monday evening to push the deadline to 10 a.m. and then on Tuesday morning, asked that the deadline be extended again to noon. As of 12:30 p.m., the time of publication, no response had been received.”

(Continued)

Source:
Post-reprimand remarks by AG Rokita prompt new disciplinary review of his conduct

 

[mrjitty]

I guess we can both agree that it was sure lucky for McLeland that he got what he needed. It might not be as good as he hoped for but it might be enough.

Yes - I agree. I was picturing other trials I followed where the prosecution then had a recorded confession on top. I think one upshot is it might force the defendant to testify - he needs to throw himself at the jury and say sure i lied about this but there were reasons, and hope they at least partially believe him

 

[mrjitty]

Looks like the AG is of the same mind as the judge and even believes the crime scene photos investigation probably constitutes a conflict of interest with the old defense attorneys. Interesting.

I quite liked aspects of the AGs filing. Especially the AG admits that the record is a hot mess. But one reason for that is because it was Rozzi who called the chambers meeting, not Judge Gull, and the defence wanted to do it off the record (even if unfair), In reliance on the withdrawal promises, Judge Gull did not hold the hearing. This is one reason IMO, why SCOIN may have a bit more sympathy for the judge than otherwise.

In his podcast Motta recounts in his interview with counsel for the relator - they were realistic that they might simply lose this on procedural grounds even if substance favours the defence.

 

[sunshineray]

This isn’t a good look for JG, would have probably been better if the AG didn’t get involved since already in hot water himself. JMO

bbm

November 28, 2023

“Weeks after being public reprimanded, Indiana Attorney General Todd Rokita is—again—under investigation by the Indiana Supreme Court Disciplinary Commission for the statement he made after signing the affidavit to settle his previous disciplinary complaint.

According to letters Indianapolis attorneys Paula Cardoza-Jones and William Groth received from the disciplinary commission and shared with The Indiana Citizen, a preliminary investigation has been opened into Rokita for alleged misconduct. Both Cardoza-Jones and Groth filed separate grievances, independent of each other, with the disciplinary commission.

Rokita must now provide a written response to allegations that he violated two rules of professional conduct. After reviewing the grievances and Rokita’s response, the commission could dismiss the matter altogether or conduct a further investigation and present its findings to the full disciplinary commission. If the matter is presented to the full commission, the members will then decide whether Rokita engaged in misconduct that warrants a disciplinary action.

The commission is paying special attention to Cardoza-Jones’ grievance.

Specifically, the disciplinary commission is investigating whether Rokita violated Indiana Professional Conduct Rules 3.3(a)(1) and 8.4(c). The former rule prohibits a lawyer from knowingly making a false statement of fact to a tribunal—in this case, the Indiana Supreme Court. The latter defines professional misconduct for a lawyer as engaging in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation.

Cardoza-Jones asserted that Rokita violated the rules by making false statements in his affidavit. That affidavit supported the conditional agreement that the Indiana Supreme Court accepted to resolve the previous complaint the commission had filed against him.

“The Commission agreed to and the Court narrowly approved a very generous (conditional agreement), finding, ‘Respondent’s acceptance of responsibility is a mitigating factor,’” Cardoza-Jones wrote in her grievance. “Rokita, however, has not accepted responsibility for his misconduct. In his Website Response, filed immediately after the Court’s decision, he denied any misconduct and paints himself as a victim of the media, liberal activists and cancel culture, among others. By implication, he includes the Commission and the Court among his perceived unjust persecutors.”

The Indiana Citizen reached out Monday afternoon to Attorney General Rokita’s office for a comment and gave the deadline of 8 a.m. Tuesday to respond. The office asked Monday evening to push the deadline to 10 a.m. and then on Tuesday morning, asked that the deadline be extended again to noon. As of 12:30 p.m., the time of publication, no response had been received.”

(Continued)

Source:
Post-reprimand remarks by AG Rokita prompt new disciplinary review of his conduct

Thanks for the info
So what exactly are those two lawyers saying the AG did? That article dances around what their actual grievances are? He broke two rules of ethics by supposedly lying about what on an affidavit?

 

[girlhasnoname]

On Thursday, lawyers representing Allen in the Indiana Supreme Court case filed a response and disagreed with both Rokita and Gull’s reasoning.

Richard Allen disagrees with Judge Gull, AG Rokita’s findings; continues push for Indiana Supreme Court to step in

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Richard Allen, the man accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi in 2017, disagrees with Judge Fran Gull and Indiana Attorney General Todd Rokita’s re…

fox59.com

<snipped & BBM from linked article>

Allen’s attorneys argued that Allen seeks a speedy trial to be held in January — his original trial date — and wishes Baldwin and Rozzi to represent him. The attorneys argued a writ and a decision from the Indiana Supreme Court is the only way to pursue this outcome, not an appeal, since a direct appeal would mean going to trial first. Currently, Gull has moved the trial to October 2024.

There is no way B&R are or were ready for trial in January. There were still hearings pending, the upcoming holidays and the fact that the investigation into the leaked evidence from Baldwin's office put a stop to them continuing work on the case tells me this.

Oooof, this exD team is screaming for redemption at this point, even at the expense of their buddy/client Rick.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

RELATORS’ MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE RESPONSE TO RESPONDENT’S AND ATTORNEY GENERAL’S OBJECTIONS

"Relator, by counsel, respectfully requests that this Court allow Relator the opportunity to respond to both Respondent’s and the Attorney General’s objections to Relator’s petition for a writ of mandamus. In support of this motion, Relator states the following: ..."

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

From the Relator's new motion; I don't recall ever seeing that in red.
It's likely the one filed on 06/20:
[snip]
4. Finally, since Relator filed his petition, Respondent has produced a transcript of the October 19 in camera proceeding and ordered the trial court clerk to make several filings publicly accessible. Relator had not had access to the in camera transcript and one of those filings until it was made publicly available. The new filing was a report filed by the Carroll County Sheriff in June 2023, which is relevant to Respondent’s objection and is included in a supplemental record of proceedings Relator is filing contemporaneously with this motion.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I guess we can both agree that it was sure lucky for McLeland that he got what he needed. It might not be as good as he hoped for but it might be enough.

I have to disagree FG, McLeland or luck had nothing to do with RA confessing on a recorded prison phone line 5 times to his wife and mother. That is all solely on RA. Of course the Prosecution will use that evidence of guilt, how could they not?

That, in combination of all the other evidence, is what is going to convict RA. He was there, at the time, wearing matching clothing, by his own admission and looking eerily like BG as caught by LG on video. That is just what we know today, even discounting the bullet. Who can even guess what was recovered during the SW's?

JMO