IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[Cyber sleuth]

Emphasis mine. MOO they felt stifled by the gag, felt it was unreasonable, and therefore demonstrated an extreme lack of effort and motivation to safeguard against violating it. JMO

This seemed quite clear from the in chambers transcript. At onset of being assigned they gave lip service to the judge that they didn’t want the case tried in the public but their actions showed the opposite.
They wanted everything to be known. They didn’t care that a leak had happened. They shrugged it off with a dismissive “would have come out in trial anyway”.
But would it? Images of undressed and tortured little girls?
I find that hard to believe.

 

[Cedars]

...
They wanted everything to be known. They didn’t care that a leak had happened. They shrugged it off with a dismissive “would have come out in trial anyway”.
RSBM

IMO, they are defense attorneys and at that moment they were doing what DA's do best: being defensive. They couldn't deny the leak (because their attorney had just published a document admitting it), so they moved to defensive stance #2, minimize the accusation.

Just like little children, what people say when they are on the hotseat is not the same as what they say when, for example, taking bar exams.

JMO

 

[AugustWest]

But would it? Images of undressed and tortured little girls?
I find that hard to believe.

Almost without question those images (if they exist; I have no personal knowledge) will be presented by either/or/both prosecution and defense at trial. The images may be screened in some way, but they are directly relevant to the crime.

 

[tlcya]

Almost without question those images (if they exist; I have no personal knowledge) will be presented by either/or/both prosecution and defense at trial. The images may be screened in some way, but they are directly relevant to the crime.

agree, they would have been shown at trial, but would they have been shown to the public at large? Most likely not.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

agree, they would have been shown at trial, but would they have been shown to the public at large? Most likely not.

That is what I am referring to. I understand the judge, jury and expert witnesses would have access to these images. But I don’t think they would have been available for public consumption.

 

[girlhasnoname]

However, IMO that would imply the sequence of passing it along via multiple parties to social media was prearranged.

If the Texas man hadn't shared to social media influencers, it's highly likely no one would know about it.

And the social media influencers never revealed the documents or what was in them, they just called police.

So, in terms of a purposeful 'leak', nothing was achieved except the suicide of MW's friend. How can that have been part of the plan?

I just don't believe it's necessary to always jump to a conspiracy theory. IMO that implies the world is full of extremely competent people who have complete control over what other people say and do.

IMO, the explanation is actually a bit more scary: everything and everyone is out of control.

JMO

There could have been a targeted list of people and/or SM sites to send the info to prearranged. Why not? If you're risking "stealing" highly confidential pictures and documents under seal from your good lawyer 'friend', you aren't just going to hold them for kicks. What would be the point in that?

MW wanted to be someone in 'the know' on a high profile case IMO (just listen to him on TMS podcast) and, who knows, we may eventually find out there was some monetary gain for certain people.

Some SM influencers/podcaster did show some of the photos and some did describe them in complete detail. Highly exploitive and a disservice to the actual murder victims Abbigal Williams and Liberty German and their families.

This case has been fraught with conspiracy issues over the years and you just have to read the latest Franks Memorandum for a good Odinist Killer Cult one.

B&R have driven this case over the rails and out of control IMO. They have done their client no justice, rather hindered it I would say. I hope the SCOIN rectifies this situation sooner rather than later.

MOO

 

[Cedars]

agree, they would have been shown at trial, but would they have been shown to the public at large? Most likely not.

I've seen reported in recent trials: photos of JJ and Tylee, the Murdaugh victims , Moriah Wilson...were shown in court but media were unable to print them, no one was allowed to take cellphone pictures. Family are warned so they may choose not to be in court that day.

And they are presented by the Crown, as evidence for the prosecution, they are not brought up by the defense .

JMO

 

[AugustWest]

agree, they would have been shown at trial, but would they have been shown to the public at large? Most likely not.

During trial, I cannot imagine a judge not screening the images from public view.

Post-trial, however, is more uncertain. There is a presumption by courts that the public has a right to see and copy judicial records.

Here are Indiana's rules on access: https://www.in.gov/courts/rules/records/records.pdf

 

[Cedars]

There could have been a targeted list of people and/or SM sites to send the info to prearranged. Why not? If you're risking "stealing" highly confidential pictures and documents under seal from your good lawyer 'friend', you aren't just going to hold them for kicks. What would be the point in that?

MW wanted to be someone in 'the know' on a high profile case IMO (just listen to him on TMS podcast) and, who knows, we may eventually find out there was some monetary gain for certain people.

Some SM influencers/podcaster did show some of the photos and some did describe them in complete detail. Highly exploitive and a disservice to the actual murder victims Abbigal Williams and Liberty German and their families.

This case has been fraught with conspiracy issues over the years and you just have to read the latest Franks Memorandum for a good Odinist Killer Cult one.

B&R have driven this case over the rails and out of control IMO. They have done their client no justice, rather hindered it I would say. I hope the SCOIN rectifies this situation sooner rather than later.

MOO

I agree, this case has been and still is fraught with an uncounted number of conspiracy theories, I guess it can't hurt to thrown in a bunch more.

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

I've seen reported in recent trials: photos of JJ and Tylee, the Murdaugh victims , Moriah Wilson...were shown in court but media were unable to print them, no one was allowed to take cellphone pictures. Family are warned so they may choose not to be in court that day.

And they are presented by the Crown, as evidence for the prosecution, they are not brought up by the defense .

JMO

And exactly which images are allowed to be shown is something the prosecution, defense and judge work out together. An image might be ruled cumulative. It will come down to a handful of images that clearly illustrate the body and what was done to it without repetition or pictures being included that don't educate the jury, just shock them. It's very important to ensure a fair trial that reaches a clear verdict. Too many shocking pictures and a jury may be prejudiced against a defendant, or even 'switch off' to distance themselves from pictures they find traumatizing. There probably isn't a trial in the country where every single image has been shown to a jury, an open court, and the media without this filtering having gone on first. So the 'it would have come out at trial anyway so it doesn't matter' argument is not just facetious, it's incorrect. He has no idea which images would have been allowed and who would have seen them.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

Each side only gets 30 minutes total, and that includes rebuttal time and interruptions from the judges with questions. I'm totally guessing, but I don't think we're going to hear much about this leak investigation. I'm imagining them giving deeper explanations into how their cited caselaw applies, and how each decision withheld or denied RA's rights. Only my own take on things, though, and I'm admittedly not a lawyer.

I think the leaks, not just the crime scene photos leak but the emailed defense discovery and strategy (and in a smaller but still relevent way the FM) has to be addressed in arguments against the reinstatements of AB/BR and the removal of JG. It's at the heart, it's the chain of events that led to actions. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

There could have been a targeted list of people and/or SM sites to send the info to prearranged. Why not? If you're risking "stealing" highly confidential pictures and documents under seal from your good lawyer 'friend', you aren't just going to hold them for kicks. What would be the point in that?

MW wanted to be someone in 'the know' on a high profile case IMO (just listen to him on TMS podcast) and, who knows, we may eventually find out there was some monetary gain for certain people.

Some SM influencers/podcaster did show some of the photos and some did describe them in complete detail. Highly exploitive and a disservice to the actual murder victims Abbigal Williams and Liberty German and their families.

This case has been fraught with conspiracy issues over the years and you just have to read the latest Franks Memorandum for a good Odinist Killer Cult one.

B&R have driven this case over the rails and out of control IMO. They have done their client no justice, rather hindered it I would say. I hope the SCOIN rectifies this situation sooner rather than later.

MOO

And don't forget the youtuber B, who was in the defense's email contacts that was mistakenly, humm, sent confidental documents earmarked for co-council B's eyes only.

 

[mrjitty]

I think the leaks, not just the crime scene photos leak but the emailed defense discovery and strategy (and in a smaller but still relevent way the FM) has to be addressed in arguments against the reinstatements of AB/BR and the removal of JG. It's at the heart, it's the chain of events that led to actions. AJMO

I believe this is where Judge Gull did herself no favours by not preparing a proper written reasoning for her decision - the record is just what she read out in chambers.

So for instance IMO it is on the record that defence was found to have attempted to mislead the court in relation to conditions of detention. As much as DH and BM complain about it, the Judge found it on the record, and listed it as a ground.

On the leaks, IMO "The Prosecutors" are right that reading between the lines, Judge Gull does not accept the explanations of AB, or perhaps more accurately, can't take his word for it, but neither Judge Gull nor AB particularly wants to get to the bottom of it.

So we never get a detailed finding on it, because Gull messed up, but also per the AG's pleading - because AB contributes to the defective record by his oral motion to withdraw in chambers.

I have no idea how SCOIN resolves that hot mess. Personally I think it would be odd if they can get back on the case without having to endure a proper DQ hearing but does anyone actually want one?

 

[mrjitty]

I agree, this case has been and still is fraught with an uncounted number of conspiracy theories, I guess it can't hurt to thrown in a bunch more.

JMO

I'm not sure it is a conspiracy that the leaks were an intentional backchannel. There are a number of possible reasons why MW did it, and we simply haven't heard his full story. I hope it does go to trial for this reason

My scepticism in believing much the defence is saying is that in the major cases I have followed in the last 10 years (McStay, Morphew, Pistorius etc) defence counsel have been quite brazen about misleading the Judge.

There is an old truisim that you should not burn your stakeholders in your efforts to spin, because one day you have a crisis, and you might need to be believed. IMO that day came for AB.

 

[sunshineray]

I believe this is where Judge Gull did herself no favours by not preparing a proper written reasoning for her decision - the record is just what she read out in chambers.

So for instance IMO it is on the record that defence was found to have attempted to mislead the court in relation to conditions of detention. As much as DH and BM complain about it, the Judge found it on the record, and listed it as a ground.

On the leaks, IMO "The Prosecutors" are right that reading between the lines, Judge Gull does not accept the explanations of AB, or perhaps more accurately, can't take his word for it, but neither Judge Gull nor AB particularly wants to get to the bottom of it.

So we never get a detailed finding on it, because Gull messed up, but also per the AG's pleading - because AB contributes to the defective record by his oral motion to withdraw in chambers.

I have no idea how SCOIN resolves that hot mess. Personally I think it would be odd if they can get back on the case without having to endure a proper DQ hearing but does anyone actually want one?

Yes the closest to on the record, and while their former client and his new attorneys were present, was when the old defense filed to be present and then dramatically burst into the courtroom and sat down at the defense table saying they were representing RA Pro Bono. JG said, IIRC and paraphrasing, Ok you want this said publically, you will not be representing the defendant because of your gross negligence.

 

[FrostedGlass]

So for instance IMO it is on the record that defence was found to have attempted to mislead the court in relation to conditions of detention. As much as DH and BM complain about it, the Judge found it on the record, and listed it as a ground.

RSBM for focus.
IMO We'll never know if the court was misled about prison conditions.

Galipeau ordered RA's interviews to be recorded face-on but stopped before it went before the judge.
Galipeau let his guards wear Odin patches but they were taken off before it went before the judge.
Do you think Galipeau may have stopped doing any of the other things the D accused him of before it went before the judge?

 

[mrjitty]

RSBM for focus.
IMO We'll never know if the court was misled about prison conditions.

Galipeau ordered RA's interviews to be recorded face-on but stopped before it went before the judge.
Galipeau let his guards wear Odin patches but they were taken off before it went before the judge.
Do you think Galipeau may have stopped doing any of the other things the D accused him of before it went before the judge?

I get disagreeing with the judges ruling - but the Judge did actually make that finding.

I do understand thinking the Judge may have got it wildly wrong - I still have PTSD from the Judge's sanctions order in the Morphew case - but unless you appeal - the decision of the first instance court is done and dusted. Where I think DH and BM veered straight over into fanfic is claiming the judge must be biased because she found that.

Again it's one of these things I find culturally weird, that attorneys go on a podcast and call a judge biased. IMO these kinds of claims undermine the justice system

 

[FrostedGlass]

I get disagreeing with the judges ruling - but the Judge did actually make that finding.

I do understand thinking the Judge may have got it wildly wrong - I still have PTSD from the Judge's sanctions order in the Morphew case - but unless you appeal - the decision of the first instance court is done and dusted. Where I think DH and BM veered straight over into fanfic is claiming the judge must be biased because she found that.

Again it's one of these things I find culturally weird, that attorneys go on a podcast and call a judge biased. IMO these kinds of claims undermine the justice system

Nice reply but you missed my question.
In short, since he side-stepped those two issues, do you trust him to tell the truth about all the other things?

 

[mrjitty]

Nice reply but you missed my question.
In short, since he side-stepped those two issues, do you trust him to tell the truth about all the other things?

Sure it's possible he wasn't honest. The judge preferred one side's evidence to the other. Do Judges mess up? Sure. As many on this thread experienced, the Judge in Morphew got (IMO) hornswoggled by an expensive defence attorney and proceeded to make a wildly incorrect sanctions order.

But i don't think the judge was biased. More he formed a low opinion of the prosecution's performance (with justification), then proceeded to mess up the law because he was irked. IMO that is what happened here between the lines.

ETA: I think the conditions RA is held in an injustice, especially with no bail or prelim. But I don't think it's a Odinist conspiracy of some kind.

 

[steeltowngirl]

That is what I am referring to. I understand the judge, jury and expert witnesses would have access to these images. But I don’t think they would have been available for public consumption.

The court records were sealed, gag order in place. The leaked photos should not have been released in public. I suppose they are now out there somewhere in social media.

IIRC, the Katsouras family obtained a settlement for damages over a photo leak. Will there be a civil suit in the Delphi case? The victims‘ families have demonstrated much grace throughout the years of the ongoing case investigation, and may have no interest in a civil suit. They can’t even talk about any of it, due to the gag order.

The whole thing stinks.

jmo