IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

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The MS's latest podcast actually addressed this. To their knowledge, no, the photos of the girls have not been posted to the internet. They felt like the image first brought to the families attention was of blood on the tree. That is horrible enough, of course. But if we are scrutinizing the wording in the motion, then we in the public cannot be sure, IMO. Nobody appears to have posted the photos online, but perhaps the investigation knows differently. JMO.
Playing devil's advocate here, posted online and received by Podcasters and YTers are 2 different things. Gray Hughes said on the video linked here that he received the photos of Libby and Abby and went on to describe them. Their body positioning, that Libby was nude, Abby clothed etc. So he has seen them with his own eyes.

He didn't show the actual photos of the girls, but graphically described them and then had stick figure drawings representing how the branches and runes were placed. He did show the picture of the blood smeared tree and the ones of Libby's shoe in the creek. :(

So while MS doesn't think the photos have been posted on the internet, that really doesn't mean much to me. I feel strongly that if one person had them and sent them out to others, (MW, MRC, RF, Others that we know of so far) they are on the internet somewhere still today I'd bet.

It's a shame we're even having to have this discussion. What a violation and exploitation of innocent victims. :(

JMO
 
Playing devil's advocate here, posted online and received by Podcasters and YTers are 2 different things. Gray Hughes said on the video linked here that he received the photos of Libby and Abby and went on to describe them. Their body positioning, that Libby was nude, Abby clothed etc. So he has seen them with his own eyes.

He didn't show the actual photos of the girls, but graphically described them and then had stick figure drawings representing how the branches and runes were placed. He did show the picture of the blood smeared tree and the ones of Libby's shoe in the creek. :(

So while MS doesn't think the photos have been posted on the internet, that really doesn't mean much to me. I feel strongly that if one person had them and sent them out to others, (MW, MRC, RF, Others that we know of so far) they are on the internet somewhere still today I'd bet.

It's a shame we're even having to have this discussion. What a violation and exploitation of innocent victims. :(

JMO
Indeed. I hope many, many lessons are learned from this whole ordeal. Nothing can be undone, for anybody. The families, the community, LE, the legal system...nobody comes out unscathed.
 
I recommend listening to TMS episode
There were some interesting comments made in regards to:
In chambers discussion of conduct prior to gag order being ordered.
Victim's family became aware of the bloody tree photo prior to TMS receiving it from MRC.
TMS believes they are not accounted to properly in the motion as they are referred to as one entity.
TMS believes they led investigators to the leak and communications not the other way around.
TMS said there was a connection between MRC and BW.
AB's admission to the leak to investigators was not made until after investigators had already connected the dots. TMS believe AB was trying to get ahead of the information with MW.
NMC states MW was given a copy of the FM to review prior to it being filed and it included exhibits that included protected scene photos. The same photos that were then leaked. TMS states that it's questionable whether the exhibits were attached, the language is confusing.
It appears this was an ongoing information that AB was consistently sharing information, protected and otherwise. TMS does not believe that MW had one time access and made a snap decision to share.
They discuss the iCloud screenshots showing candid ongoing information between AB and MW. AB's sharing strengths and weaknesses of the case that ultimately ended up being leaked which ended up getting into the hands of prosecution
TMS address that it doesn't appear RA was aware of the full extent of the leak and damages. He should have been included in chambers meeting. His letter stating he acknowledged the leak was limited in nature and his rights should be considered.
 
So, here's what I don't understand about NMcL's motion. Even if everything in it is 100% factual, it feels like some things are missing. Like his mention of the photos being altered by the D. What NMcL didn't say is how they were altered. Why include that statement with no explanation? Why didn't he attach an exhibit of how these photos were altered? He could have made those confidential, like the attachments in the FM were. Did he include them and I just missed it?

The D supported their claims with exhibits, citations, page numbers, etc., but since there was no hearing, we don't know why the judge assessed it the way she did. Now, NMcL makes some of his claims with no attached supporting documentation at all? What is the judge supposed to do with that?

I'm not comfortable with this, even if I think NMcL has a valid motion. I don't like the potential omission issue that could possibly be a loose thread running throughout the State's case.
BBM
I think for the basis of this motion it's not necessary to discuss how they were altered. I think he is simply stating that they were altered because the alterations from the leaked photos matched exactly to those that had been filed by defense as an exhibit in the FM. Therefore showing that the leaked photos were the work product of defense.
 
I recommend listening to TMS episode
There were some interesting comments made in regards to:
In chambers discussion of conduct prior to gag order being ordered.
Victim's family became aware of the bloody tree photo prior to TMS receiving it from MRC.
TMS believes they are not accounted to properly in the motion as they are referred to as one entity.
TMS believes they led investigators to the leak and communications not the other way around.
TMS said there was a connection between MRC and BW.
AB's admission to the leak to investigators was not made until after investigators had already connected the dots. TMS believe AB was trying to get ahead of the information with MW.
NMC states MW was given a copy of the FM to review prior to it being filed and it included exhibits that included protected scene photos. The same photos that were then leaked. TMS states that it's questionable whether the exhibits were attached, the language is confusing.
It appears this was an ongoing information that AB was consistently sharing information, protected and otherwise. TMS does not believe that MW had one time access and made a snap decision to share.
They discuss the iCloud screenshots showing candid ongoing information between AB and MW. AB's sharing strengths and weaknesses of the case that ultimately ended up being leaked which ended up getting into the hands of prosecution
TMS address that it doesn't appear RA was aware of the full extent of the leak and damages. He should have been included in chambers meeting. His letter stating he acknowledged the leak was limited in nature and his rights should be considered.
I agree, it was a good episode, and thanks for the summary. The whole issue with MW having the FM, with included attachments, is interesting. So the photos that were leaked were in the FM? Because if they were, and MW already had a copy with attachments, I don't see any reason for him to sneak into AB's office. I'm just curious about that. Nobody has disputed that he took the photos in the office.
 
Indiana court operations on Indirect Criminal Contempt:
Characteristics
  • Willfulness
  • Deliberate intention to either
    • Disobey or interfere with process of lawful order
    • Influencing, intimidating, or injuring a witness, or
    • Providing a false or inaccurate report of a case.
  • Conduct occurs outside judge’s presence, or judge’s knowledge of incident is not first-hand or immediate.
Procedures
  • New, separate cause of action (MC). I could be totally wrong but... is this saying that McLeland should have filed this as a separate criminal cause, not as a filing inside RA's cause?
  • Action is prosecuted in name of State.
  • Rule to Show Cause is required.
  • Requires appointment of special judge.
  • Due Process Requirements:
    • Service of Rule to Show Cause and Order to Appear;
    • Representation by Counsel;
    • Rights advisement;
    • When indigent, court-appointed counsel;
    • A sentence exceeding six months invokes the right to trial by jury.
  • Standard of proof: The evidence must show that contemnor acted with willful and intentional disobedience. contemnor.. what a fancy word
  • Defendant – Ind. Code § 34-47-3-6
    • Defendant is required to answer Rule to Show Cause.
    • If defendant fails to appear or refuses to answer, trial court may proceed to attach and punish defendant for contempt.
  • Defenses:
    • Inadequate notice as to facts constituting contempt.
    • Inability to obey (burden of proof is on defendant).
    • Inability to pay (burden of proof in on defendant).
  • Sanctions:
    • Fine;
    • Imprisonment;
    • Fine and imprisonment;
    • Reasonable sanction at the judge’s discretion
IANAL, this is all JMO as I read through the motion.
1-5: B&R preemptively defied the Gag Order by disagreeing that a gag order was needed on 11/22/22, and then putting out a press release 12/1/22.
B&R were appointed 11/14 and ordered to enter appearances and attend hearing 11/22. This was essentially their first day on the case. Is it not possible that on 11/22 they didn't have intentions of making any public statements, but by 12/1, after reviewing information about the case and talking to their client, they decided to issue the press release, having not been ordered not to?
6: JG issues Gag Order. "The Order directed the attorneys not to comment on this case to the public or to the media, directly or indirectly, by themselves or through any intermediary, in any form."
BBM - The Gag Order actually specifics by Means of Public Communication
View attachment 479035
12/1/22 12/2/22
The language about "to the public" which is somewhat vague as to whether it means 'any unauthorized 3rd party' or 'the larger community', is only included in the 12/2/22 order, which is in effect until the 1/13 hearing. That language is absent from the order from 1/13/23 which makes the Gag Order permanent. Therefore, it's clear that the Gag Order applies by statements made to the media/by public communication.
1/13/23

7: State alleges AB violates Gag Order with the email to BW including outline of discovery.
State does not even allege that this was a willful action by AB, which is a requirement of contempt. In addition, BW isn't the media or the public.
8: Alleges B&R failed to notify the court or state of the email to BW.
seemingly irrelevant relating to an order for Contempt of Court?
9: Alleges that since BW disseminated the info from the outline to other people and "multiple viewers" on Youtube. "This dissemination of material from the case is a violation of the Gag Order that directly relates back to Defense Counsel."
BW can't violate the gag order, he wasn't subject to the gag order. The D can't violate the gag order by accidentally sending a private person an email, BW isn't the media. He has 578 youtube followers and barely any views.
10-11: Protective order put in place 2/13/23
12: State informed of CS photos leaked which matched the photos the defense attached in FM.

Doesn't mention whether the leaks were all pics of printed photos or if some were taken on a computer, which is a lingering question I had about the leaks
13-14: Discussing chain of the leaks from MW to RF to 'Podcaster', AB informs State and JG of the actions of MW. "Ironically, this was hours after investigators spoke to Fortson and determined that MW leaked the photos and he was the connection to the Defense."
Is this insinuating that AB's timing in informing them about MW's actions was convenient and only done because he knew they were getting closer?
15: AB "admitted" he "voluntarily" gave MW and another "civilian" a copy of the FM to review. "The Frank's Memorandum and exhibits contained protected discovery information that included very sensitive crime scene photos that were "leaked" by MW. Specifically, the investigation revealed that MW gave the photos to an individual named RF, who then passed them on to individuals who distributed them throughout the internet."
These 2 sentences seem to be juxtaposed to imply that MW was given access to the FM and the exhibits and that this is where he got the pics. But it only says that AB let others read the actual memo. Most of us have read it too... And the Supreme Court of Indiana said that we should be able to read it per IN's public access rules... The use of the phrase "protected discovery information" is imprecise. The protective order limits access to the actual discovery MATERIAL, it doesn't say that all of the INFORMATION contained within discovery is confidential, which would be a ridiculous standard and impossible to enforce unless you don't think the D has the right to file any pre-trial motions because some of the information included might be reported on in the media.
16: Referencing the letter BR sent on 10/12/23. References Section 4 of the letter he says BR "admits that MW had access to the conference room" and "admits that it was negligent to allow MW alone in the office where sensitive discovery material was stored", and referencing section 10 says BR "accepts responsibility for a lapse in security that caused the photos to be leaked. Admitting to this Court that they are in indirect contempt of the Court's Orders."
Because Contempt needs to be willful, the mistake of not having the office more secure is not a contemptuous action. Contrary to the State's claims about the letter, in section 4, BR does not admit AB had any knowledge that MW was in the back of the office or allowed him there, only points out that any argument of negligence would be in that MW was able to get back there to do what he did.
View attachment 479066
Exhibit K in this document: 11/6 RecordofProceedingsVolume 1.pdf

17: References affidavit of MW
18: Allegation of ongoing leak to RF by MW, that RF knew "detailed real-time knowledge about when evidence was submitted to the Defense and the contents of that evidence" and "the actions Defense took in trial preparation"
AB talking to MW (even granting that is how MW obtained this info to share with RF and that the info was accurate) is not a statement to the media, so it doesn't violate Gag Order. AB discussing the case with MW is Not allowing him access to discovery MATERIAL, so it isn't a violation of the Protective Order. This still contains no allegations of a willful action by the D. Again it seems that the State's allegation relies on the D not being allowed to discuss the facts of the case at all? Perhaps we shouldn't even have a D for this case!
19-20: Recounting investigation of MW/RF
21: SW revealed screenshots of convos with MW and AB in which they "discuss the RA case" "candidly talk about the Court and the State" alleges that this shows "a free flow of information that is protected by the Court's Gag Order and the Order protecting discovery."
They don't give any examples of what AB shared that was violative. If anything in the texts WAS violative, I'm sure they'd share in more detail. AB talking *advertiser censored* about NM and JG isn't protected under the Gag Order since MW isn't the media. State doesn't even allege any discovery info was shared over texts. Totally irrelevant info.
22: States the D "failed to secure evidence and discovery materials, specifically graphic crime scene photos, which were then distributed to the public" and that "the disclosure was ongoing"
Again this is very imprecisely worded. He uses "the disclosure" to reference "a failure to secure". Failing to have good security measures to the office is not the same as (willfully, actively) disclosing material. Telling a friend about the progress on the case and your thoughts on it isn't the same thing as that friend viewing protected discovery. These aren't things that should be grouped together as "ongoing disclosures".
23: Says that DH admitted B&R should be sanctioned and "those sanctions have yet to be addressed"
except for the part that they were improperly kicked off the case for 2 months lol
24: states the families have been revictimized and harmed by the leaks.
25: summarize the allegations: "not being completely honest with the Court, violating the Court's Gag Order[...], and failing to comply with the Protective Order"

IMO this motion seems rushed and half-assed and reads more like a press release about how terrible RA's attorneys are, considering NM barely even attempted to show evidence of the most important aspect of Contempt: WILLFULNESS.
Why aren't you a lawyer exactly?
 
I agree, it was a good episode, and thanks for the summary. The whole issue with MW having the FM, with included attachments, is interesting. So the photos that were leaked were in the FM? Because if they were, and MW already had a copy with attachments, I don't see any reason for him to sneak into AB's office. I'm just curious about that. Nobody has disputed that he took the photos in the office.
Yes it seems the motion is leading us to believe that.
The crime scene photos leaked were the same as the ones attached in the FM.
AB shared the FM with MW and another individual.
MW shared the same crime scene photos and exhibits from FM -so we are lead to believe this was all directly from AB collaborating with MW but..
The language in the motion on whether he shared the exhibits and crime scene photos with MW is murky. It leaves it open to interpretation which is not to my liking,
 
Playing devil's advocate here, posted online and received by Podcasters and YTers are 2 different things. Gray Hughes said on the video linked here that he received the photos of Libby and Abby and went on to describe them. Their body positioning, that Libby was nude, Abby clothed etc. So he has seen them with his own eyes.

He didn't show the actual photos of the girls, but graphically described them and then had stick figure drawings representing how the branches and runes were placed. He did show the picture of the blood smeared tree and the ones of Libby's shoe in the creek. :(

So while MS doesn't think the photos have been posted on the internet, that really doesn't mean much to me. I feel strongly that if one person had them and sent them out to others, (MW, MRC, RF, Others that we know of so far) they are on the internet somewhere still today I'd bet.

It's a shame we're even having to have this discussion. What a violation and exploitation of innocent victims. :(

JMO

BBM
I agree with you here. TMS doesn't know the extent of the leak and who and where those photos may still be stored. They could emerge today, tomorrow or 25 years from now. In my years of being a true crime enthusiast I have heard and seen things I wish I hadn't. Things that I did not want to see or hear and should have never been available for public consumption. In this case, the bell can't be unrung- I hope the victims families seek some sort of damages from the parties involved. I hope higher standards of protection are required in the future for storing, sharing and protecting sensitive documents.
 
Yes it seems the motion is leading us to believe that.
The crime scene photos leaked were the same as the ones attached in the FM.
AB shared the FM with MW and another individual.
MW shared the same crime scene photos and exhibits from FM -so we are lead to believe this was all directly from AB collaborating with MW but..
The language in the motion on whether he shared the exhibits and crime scene photos with MW is murky. It leaves it open to interpretation which is not to my liking,
Me neither. Murky is not good for a court document. In my mind, if MW had the attachments already, then he could have shared the photos without needing to steal them from AB's office. That doesn't make sense to me. His actions make it appear that he did not have private copies of the attachments (JMO). And if he didn't, my question is why NMcL left that murky at all? He doesn't need that piece to make his case, IMO. But leaving it this way makes him look questionable. Why the hell can't anyone be forthright in this case?
 
I recommend listening to TMS episode
There were some interesting comments made in regards to:
In chambers discussion of conduct prior to gag order being ordered.
Victim's family became aware of the bloody tree photo prior to TMS receiving it from MRC.
TMS believes they are not accounted to properly in the motion as they are referred to as one entity.
TMS believes they led investigators to the leak and communications not the other way around.
TMS said there was a connection between MRC and BW.
AB's admission to the leak to investigators was not made until after investigators had already connected the dots. TMS believe AB was trying to get ahead of the information with MW.
NMC states MW was given a copy of the FM to review prior to it being filed and it included exhibits that included protected scene photos. The same photos that were then leaked. TMS states that it's questionable whether the exhibits were attached, the language is confusing.
It appears this was an ongoing information that AB was consistently sharing information, protected and otherwise. TMS does not believe that MW had one time access and made a snap decision to share.
They discuss the iCloud screenshots showing candid ongoing information between AB and MW. AB's sharing strengths and weaknesses of the case that ultimately ended up being leaked which ended up getting into the hands of prosecution
TMS address that it doesn't appear RA was aware of the full extent of the leak and damages. He should have been included in chambers meeting. His letter stating he acknowledged the leak was limited in nature and his rights should be considered.

I agree, it was a good episode, and thanks for the summary. The whole issue with MW having the FM, with included attachments, is interesting. So the photos that were leaked were in the FM? Because if they were, and MW already had a copy with attachments, I don't see any reason for him to sneak into AB's office. I'm just curious about that. Nobody has disputed that he took the photos in the office.

Thank you both for listening to MS.
Can you clarify and provide context as to this MS statement from Cyber sleuth's notes above, including who is BW?

"TMS said there was a connection between MRC and BW."
 
Thank you both for listening to MS.
Can you clarify and provide context as to this MS statement from Cyber sleuth's notes above, including who is BW?
BW is the person AB accidentally emailed discovery product to (the first leak). I'm not sure what they said about a MRC/BW connection. Hopefully @Cyber sleuth can help.
 
It's been clear to me all along that AB and BR were intentionally concealing the true circumstances from the Court. Especially because in chambers, and in Court, they all (including DH) conspicuously avoided some of the critical facts - like was MW allowed in the war room and did AB know he was in there?

What irks me about all this, is you simply cannot deceive the Court IMO. If you messed up, you need to tell the Court all of what happened and not hide things. They obscured this from the Court, they hid it from the public while their boosters shouted from the rooftops, and they concealed it from SCOIN.

Now to some extent this is Gull's own fault for not holding the hearing so this would be on the record. But I do wonder if she knew this?

End of the day, these guys are deceitful and dishonest. I certainly feel deceived having had some sympathy for Wieneke's pleadings, personalities aside, on a constitutional basis. Did Wieneke know this???
They also didn't (?) tell JG about the email going to BW until how long after it happened exactly?? Should they have? I feel like they should have, but I'm not a lawyer so...?
 
I am also awarding myself bragging rights on the following.

I argued way back that if MW was operating as an ad hoc consultant to the defence, then this was a breach/leak by the defence team itself.

Whether authorised or unauthorised we don't know, but I certainly no longer give any credibility to the claims of AB and MW that he took the photos without authorisation. IMO he took one for the team - which I said way back.

I am flabbergasted at this. They idea AB would have wanted a hearing is laughable. He should have thrown himself on the grenade when this first broke.
I"m now with you on your assertions! I had sympathy for them - they got screwed by MW and they erred in judgement not locking the war room had been my thoughts -- but now? I think this was a "leak strategy".
 
I wonder how McL was able to get a search warrant for MW's iCloud. His case isn't even Carroll Co. OR does that even matter?
I couldn’t believe McL put that in the motion for contempt. My understanding is McL has no ability to subpoena and is not involved in the Westerman case. It is pretty serious, apparently attorneys can be sanctioned/disbarred for it. The Westerman case also has a protective order, and McL seemingly admitted to reading privileged communication of opposing counsel. How and/or why would NM have access to Westerman’s iCloud?? JMO.
IMG_4873.jpeg
 
I didn't state that in reference to anything you said. That was just my thought. It's not like he was pressured by LE in interrogations to make a false confession, as others have supposedly done.

Who would he have been coerced by, his wife or mother? His lawyers? If he's sitting in a prison cell, all by himself, and he knows he's an innocent man, I find it hard to believe an inmate or two or three that are yelling things at him from outside his cell are going to make him confess to his wife and mother that he brutally murdered two little girls? If he's innocent that is. He'd wind up in prison hell forever by crumbling to the present verbal attacks, so that arguement makes no sense to me.

Who would have coerced him? The guards? Isn't RA's cell under surveillance 24/7? Isn't that one of the things his old/new lawyers were up in arms about?

I'm doubtful RA's guards verbally browbeat him so much into confessing multiple times to his wife and mother. I think it's a theory his lawyers cooked up because some guards were allowed flair on uniforms, which was probably put there to make them, in their minds, less of a target inside. Look I'm a tough Viking, don't mess with me type thing.

I'm hoping RA winds up pleading to get a life sentence and the families won't have to go through a terrible trial experience.

All the above is just my opinion.
RSBM - I just wanted to take a moment and post this link that may be of interest to others in regards false confessions. This article is from 2002 so possible a bit dated, but it really highlights the issues surrounding how a person might end up making a "confession". EG: it talks about the tactics used by LE (some which are subtle, and some which are not, including coercion). This article outlines other cases in which innocent people have "confessed" or made statements that were then used to railroad and convict them. False confessions are not things that supposedly have happened. They are very real and have very real consequences for those who are then convicted, their loved ones and even for the victims of the crimes. Its an interesting read and I hope people will take a moment to read it, and consider how the talking points may relate to RA. I am not proclaiming tha the is innocent. I am only encouraging others to consider that, he might be - and to consider why he might have made / may yet make statements of an incriminating nature to people....

Here is a second link on the topic of false confessions as well for more insight.

 
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BW is the person AB accidentally emailed discovery product to (the first leak). I'm not sure what they said about a MRC/BW connection. Hopefully @Cyber sleuth can help.
13:57 in TMS recent episode. They state that became familiar with MRC because he had been a big part of the Woodhouse leak. They don't go in to detail of the connection and I haven't listened to their coverage of the Woodhouse leak so I don't know personally how MRC and BW are connected.
 
I didn't state that in reference to anything you said. That was just my thought. It's not like he was pressured by LE in interrogations to make a false confession, as others have supposedly done.

Who would he have been coerced by, his wife or mother? His lawyers? If he's sitting in a prison cell, all by himself, and he knows he's an innocent man, I find it hard to believe an inmate or two or three that are yelling things at him from outside his cell are going to make him confess to his wife and mother that he brutally murdered two little girls? If he's innocent that is. He'd wind up in prison hell forever by crumbling to the present verbal attacks, so that arguement makes no sense to me.

Who would have coerced him? The guards? Isn't RA's cell under surveillance 24/7? Isn't that one of the things his old/new lawyers were up in arms about?

I'm doubtful RA's guards verbally browbeat him so much into confessing multiple times to his wife and mother. I think it's a theory his lawyers cooked up because some guards were allowed flair on uniforms, which was probably put there to make them, in their minds, less of a target inside. Look I'm a tough Viking, don't mess with me type thing.

I'm hoping RA winds up pleading to get a life sentence and the families won't have to go through a terrible trial experience.

All the above is just my opinion.
I think you've asked some great questions and wanted to respond to the rest of your post here - it could be that he's confessed of his own accord, and that he is guilty. OR. It could be a number of things:

"Another major factor in false confessions is “contamination.” Showing crime scene photos or sharing other evidence is a typical way police contaminate a person’s story, prompting them to incorporate facts about a crime of which they otherwise have no knowledge.(((James Trainum, How the Police Generate False Confessions – An Inside Look at the Interrogation Room, Rowan & Littlefield (2016), pp. 133-35.))) It is how innocent people with no knowledge of a crime learn what happened: police can unintentionally (or intentionally) leak information to the suspect when trying to convince them of the strength of the “evidence” against them." --
This is what I want more information about before I deem his "confessions" as signs of his guilt. We do not know what questions he was asked by LE. We don't know if they showed him photos of the scene, or if they lied outright to him in their statements to him. We don't know if they told him the court would go easier on him if he confessed at all, or to someone in particular. We don't know what he said, or when. We don't know if he was in sight of the guards when he made those statements or if the man was intimidated somehow into thinking that Odinists might get him or his loved ones if he didn't confess. We just don't know. What we DO know, from other cases, and from any small amount of research online is that false confessions can and do happen, seemingly more commonly than even I had previously thought. That link I posted shows clearly some of the tactics used by investigators to get a "confession". Did they employ those techniques in this case? I don't know yet. I'd like the state to prove their case - that this is the man who kidnapped and killed those girls that day, beyond a reasonable doubt before I convict him in my own mind. Right now, I'm afraid I don't trust the LE, the state or even the defence team one bit.
 
13:57 in TMS recent episode. They state that became familiar with MRC because he had been a big part of the Woodhouse leak. They don't go in to detail of the connection and I haven't listened to their coverage of the Woodhouse leak so I don't know personally how MRC and BW are connected.

Interesting.

It's my belief that MS doesn't personally know how MRC and BW are connected either.

To my knowledge, MS has never addressed the journalistic vetting process they went through w/ MRC to ascertain that he's a legitimate and reliable source, providing actual facts based on his disclosed connection to either D or P.

Again, thanks for taking notes on that podcast and sharing with us all.
 
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