Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[MistyWaters]

Somebody asked about the source of “minutes” a few pages back. It’s from an ISP press release issued the same day as the PC.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[tresir2012]

Somebody asked about the source of “minutes” a few pages back. It’s from an ISP press release issued the same day as the PC.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

TYVM for this. I notice it also gives age as "appearing to be mid 20's to mid 30's" . That's a big change from 18-40 really - just a 10 year gap in the age that he appears to be. So 25-35.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Somebody asked about the source of “minutes” a few pages back. It’s from an ISP press release issued the same day as the PC.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

Not one of the many theories seems to be right, mine (abduction) in any case, apparently not. Drives you to despair ....

 

[JnRyan]

Tips are apparently tracked through a FBI program known as “Pyramid”.

“Every tip received about Libby and Abby’s murders gets entered into the FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips....”

....But detectives aren’t just looking comparing those tips to other tip-line ones to find potential leads, they also spend a significant amount of time analyzing crimes in other cities across the country to find a possible connection.....”

Delphi investigator: We wont leave any stone unturned

But it still sounds like a database software similar to MS Access. In this case, Pyramid may be a database program designed specifically for LE and maybe even more specific, just for the FBI, as opposed to a generic DB such as Access. In any case, hopefully instead of sorting through paper files they can do key word searches. For example, if a tip comes in today stating that a certain person in a certain Indiana town might be the killer instead of relying on memory or paper files, the investigator or analyst can search on that name. Hopefully, if there was a previous tip there is history there of what a previous investigator came up with earlier.

What concerns me a lot of times with Federal databases is that some of them were created individually and with no consideration with interfacing present or future databases. IOW, can Pyramid interface with NCIC or CODIS? Or Pyramid doesn't have the same issues as NCIC. And there are already serious known weaknesses with NCIC.

 

[Jabarn]

Not one of the many theories seems to be right, mine (abduction) in any case, apparently not. Drives you to despair ....

I know. It’s so hard to fathom this case isn’t solved yet. I do think it may have been an attempted abduction crime, but who knows.

 

[mcluver23]

If all tips are entered into Pyramid, I certainly hope someone is proofreading and cross checking the data entries. I’d hate to hear a typo or transposed number caused a delay in solving this case.

 

[BNA]

I know. It’s so hard to fathom this case isn’t solved yet. I do think it may have been an attempted abduction crime, but who knows.

It is hard for me to imagine that this was an attempted abduction. Can anybody cite an abduction or attempted abduction under circumstances anywhere near similar to the circumstances of this case?

As for not being solved....for all we know, this case may be all but solved. And, it seems to me that the solution will be a case of the perp hiding in plain site. I'll take LE's word for it.

 

[JnRyan]

If all tips are entered into Pyramid, I certainly hope someone is proofreading and cross checking the data entries. I’d hate to hear a typo or transposed number caused a delay in solving this case.

I've read news articles and GAO reports on NCIC, but I know very little about Pyramid. I'm hoping it doesn't share the same issues with NCIC. Data entry into NCIC is entered by state, city, county/parish and in some cases tribal LE. The problem is that it is not mandatory. Many non-federal entities haven't entered cases in NCIC and some may only enter a single major crime category such as murder. With all the different entities entering data it is sometimes entered wrong or with incomplete data. The Missing Persons file is not always used and is very limited in data, unlike NamUs. Also NamUs has a unidentified body file that can be accessed and last I heard NCIC did not.
If Pyramid is the FBI database is it open for use by everyone or only the FBI? Are ALL tips entered across the country or is it voluntary like NCIC? If it isn't complete than we could be missing some data elsewhere.
I can't find anything on the FBI's website, but I did find a commercial database application:
Enterprise Business Intelligence & Data Analytics Software - Pyramid Analytics
If that is the case this may be what we referred to in DoD as 'Commercial Off-The-Shelf' (COTS) software. Like an MS Access.

 

[tresir2012]

I know. It’s so hard to fathom this case isn’t solved yet. I do think it may have been an attempted abduction crime, but who knows.

I still think it could have been an abduction in a vehicle and around to the cemetery, then him directing them down the hill to the crime scene. The"Guys" bit is at the bridge end and the down the hill is at the cemetery. He could still have murdered them within minutes and be gone from the cemetery before 3.30 and then return to help in the search at 5.30 p.m. IMO

 

[tresir2012]

It is hard for me to imagine that this was an attempted abduction. Can anybody cite an abduction or attempted abduction under circumstances anywhere near similar to the circumstances of this case?

As for not being solved....for all we know, this case may be all but solved. And, it seems to me that the solution will be a case of the perp hiding in plain site. I'll take LE's word for it.

The Lizzy and Lyric abduction is quite similar. I think Sgt Holman admits that in his August 2017 interview also.

 

[BNA]

The Lizzy and Lyric abduction is quite similar. I think Sgt Holman admits that in his August 2017 interview also.

Maybe. The circumstances, as we believe them to be, don't seem all that similar to me, tho.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I still think it could have been an abduction in a vehicle and around to the cemetery, then him directing them down the hill to the crime scene. The"Guys" bit is at the bridge end and the down the hill is at the cemetery. He could still have murdered them within minutes and be gone from the cemetery before 3.30 and then return to help in the search at 5.30 p.m. IMO

He would have enjoyed participating in the search; it would have added to his excitement because of his secret knowledge. If he did participate, he is definitely a local. An outsider would have stuck out.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[PaulaDC]

I specifically remember you saying it looked like a drag mark. And it kind of does.

Could the girl(s) have been SA or forced to undress "down the hill" and then hastily escaped or led across the creek without bottoms on, BG also? Hence the clothing in the river and loose shoe? Then possibly the murder of extreme rage happened after and or during the crossing ? Could he have said to "take your clothes off down the hill" moo

 

[Yellow]

I was watching the ID Discovery thing on this case; I followed it loosely so don't know what would be wrong with my theories since I have not followed it that closely. But could it be that the girls were going there to meet a boy that they met on the internet or a boy they knew? Why would the girls go there on a school day? If it was someone they met on the internet that would explain why perhaps the video was taken -they realized that the person approaching was not a 14 year old boy.

However, I would think if there was internet chat they would have figured that out by now. If it was not someone from internet (I have also been watching "Web of Lies" and there are lots of stories with the internet and young girls), I don't think the video would have been deliberate. No adult - let alone a child - would, in a moment of danger be thinking to kick their shoes off to leave evidence or leave a video for someone to find them; it happens in a split second and no one would think through this chain of events.

I also think he had to have a weapon, a gun most likely, especially if it was a stranger. Otherwise how would he have been able to restrain two girls? He would have had to tie them up if no gun because otherwise one could have gotten away.

How deserted is the area? would anyone have heard them? It had to have taken some time to do the murders and clean up- would no one else have gone by? The bodies were not found in the same area- he would have had to march them somewhere since I doubt he could have carried 2 girls though the woods so he had to have some measure of control over them (through a weapon or really knowing them well, or have been in a position of authority over them like clergy or a teacher, otherwise I don't think then girls would have marched through the woods for an aquaintance); it looks like it was quite a distance, they would have run. He could have caught one but he could not catch two running girls. Wouldn't the video/audio have captured the murders?

This incident calls to mind something I saw on Oprah. they said never ever go to the second location. Nothing good ever comes from that second location.

I also think it had to have been planned; it would not be a random person that came across them right then. He either knew they would be there that day or else saw them earlier and planned on the spur of the moment. If it was not a populated location, why would someone go there with a gun or rope-if he wanted to do something that day, he would have went to a place where there would be more people around. It was just random chance if he was a predator that he would encounter the girls there on a school day in middle of winter no less.

And BG has to be the killer. What are the chances that there's a photo taken right at time of the murder in a deserted location? And if that person was there innocently, I would have thought they would have come forward, submitted DNA, etc. and cleared themselves.

The tone of the talking is odd. Would a random predator call the girls "guys"? It's a somewhat casual term.

And why isn't DNA solving this case? If it is someone close like LE imply couldn't they test many of the people in the town of 3,000 (so what maybe 500 age-appropriate males?) and at least through familial DNA find the perp?

 

[Yellow]

I would also add that the press conference was super odd. I have never seen anything like it. I am sure FBI profilers must have helped them craft the message. It almost seemed like they were trying to relay a message. Could there be a sick game going on with the killer sending them messages and they responded through the news conference? (Kind of like the BTK killer when they did it through the newspaper). Why mention the movie? In some respects, it did not seem as professional a news conference as one is used to seeing. They talk about the person being a coward; usually LE don't make statements like that; it's more emotionless in most cases.

Also the reference to what other people may think of the perp; it's an odd statement to make at a news conference. Their profiler must be telling them it's probably someone they has a job or position where they are looked up to such as a police officer, teacher, clergy, etc.

Why talk about the person acting differently? Usually people who do these kinds of things don't act that differently to people around them. So that tells me that they don't necessarily think it's a random predator, but someone for which this is their first crime.

I just think there had to have been some communication for the PC to go like that.

 

[Lowey lamanda]

New poster here- have been lurking for ages and have been confused over these two sketches for some time.

What if the second younger sketch was held back by LE hoping he would come by and insert himself into the investigation somehow,thinking he was in the clear, because original sketch looked nothing like him. But when no one cane forward, LE decided it was in best interest to release the 2nd sketch, which was actually a witness account from a few months post the murders. I’m hopeful 2nd sketch is more true to identity than original sketch...

 

[IQuestion]

Up late...lots of shaking going on in Cali this evening. I have 2 conflicting theories. Not in conflict with any of your brilliant posts, though. 1) I am thinking SM (social media) ie a posted picture of young BG had been viewed by the girls. Why else would Supt Carter state, "he may appear younger than his actual age."? (Add an exclamation point with that question mark.) How can anyone "appear younger" if there isn't a photo to compare? Hence "catfish photo" situation? Read/heard that "young BG" would be hanging out at the bridge on Monday.
My 2nd theory (and definitely odd) is wondering about an "heir to/owner of" land/political dispute on right-of-way/liability/railroad easement ie The Railroad Right-of-way Abandonment Act.
"Lurking somewhat in the background of this case is the federal government’s “rails to trails” program — very popular with outdoor enthusiasts, conservationists, and local governments. A ruling for the B***** trust, depending on how far it went to confine the federal claim that ownership of rights-of-way reverts to it, could intensify ongoing legal battles over the lands lying in former railroad beds and nearby." SCOTUS blog.
Oh well, I warned you in advance, my theories are conflicting....or Maybe
not...
Argument preview: Rights to old rights-of-way - SCOTUSblog

 

[Yellow]

what's your theory about the railroad?

someone could appeal younger if they look younger than their age in person, so they are 40 but appear 30. almost as if to say we think they are older but they look young so that's why the age range is 18-40.

person is more in 30-side but may look young.

 

[tresir2012]

Not one of the many theories seems to be right, mine (abduction) in any case, apparently not. Drives you to despair ....

Abduction and murder is still possible in 59 minutes but maybe not taken very far away. Maybe the shack theory is likely after all. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

Maybe. The circumstances, as we believe them to be, don't seem all that similar to me, tho.

We don't really know the circumstances though, apparently, do we, according to LE no one has got it right.

Sgt Holman talking about Iowa being similar. (Transcript of interview page 38 in media thread)

A: [9.21] And personality traits in a person like this, and that's I think what people have thought about before and maybe him, if there was just one person, is this the guy that was able to get both of these little girls in the woods and do these, you know, brutally murder them, do you think he possibly has done this before?

H: Uh, he could be, you know, that's, again, just kind of our theory or speculation, we have no evidence that he's done it again. But we do keep that in mind. We do check with other states to see if they have anything close; and obviously the case in Iowa is the closest; but they don't even know the cause of death in that one because they didn't find the victims until later. So, it's hard to compare. But it is similar, but, so, we have taken that into consideration as well, and we have investigated that. We've been in contact with Iowa and they have been in contact with us, and we've discussed that, but nothing else seems to be popping up around the nation that is similar to this. But that doesn't mean he is gonna kill everybody the same way every time, so (shrugs), we don't know.