Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[BNA]

From the Down the Hill Podcast at 50:00

Kelsi was in a search party at the bridge when the first sign of the girls was found a quarter a mile away. “We heard somebody yell up the hill that they found a shoe, and at the moment I knew exactly what they were wearing. I couldn’t remember what the sweatshirt was my sister was wearing until later but I knew exactly what shoes they were wearing. And so they yelled out that there was a black Nike, and I knew it was Libby’s. And then about 30 seconds later somebody else said that they found them.”

Am I remembering correctly that KG gave them each a sweatshirt for their walk that day?

 

[Falling Down]

I understand the idea that only a local would really know the area to find this bridge

I also consider that if it was someone passing through, without a car, there are not a lot of means to cross the highway around the area with out using the freedom bridge, which leads directly to the Monan High trail that goes directly past the bridge. According to trail link the actual trail is much longer than just the area around the bridge.

JMO

Even though I've followed the case closely, i struggle sometimes with exactly what people are referring to with the wider trail network in and around Delphi. I'm posting this map with the tracer for what was the old Monon right-of-way through Delphi, I screen shot it from a YT video a user posted. They walked from Pittsburg, IN, which is across the Wabash R., through Delphi, on to the trail by 25, and over to the bridge.

Is this kind of what you're referring to?

 

[Falling Down]

I also found it a little confusing on the cell phone tower records as he did not clarify. I think they were probably not able to get a search warrant on the records of whose phones were pinging from the tower. If LE can present a suspect or POI they may be able to get a search warrant to find if his particular phone was pinging off from that tower but to find out whose phone(s) was pinging off that particular tower is too many people to justify probable cause and the Judge might think it violates the privacy laws of the general public. MOO

Prosecutor Ives is spot-on with the tower stuff, and besides, someone could have an alibi or false alibi as to why their cell phone was in, say, that area that day. There's also the issue of IN 25 going through there, that could wreak havoc on cell tower data.

BG could have a burner phone, for all we know, and/or didn't have a phone on or even near him at the time of the murders.

 

[Falling Down]

From the Down the Hill Podcast at 50:00

Kelsi was in a search party at the bridge when the first sign of the girls was found a quarter a mile away. “We heard somebody yell up the hill that they found a shoe, and at the moment I knew exactly what they were wearing. I couldn’t remember what the sweatshirt was my sister was wearing until later but I knew exactly what shoes they were wearing. And so they yelled out that there was a black Nike, and I knew it was Libby’s. And then about 30 seconds later somebody else said that they found them.”

On my end, I think this further puts to rest the "searchers were all over the crime scene/where they were found that night/etc. and didn't find them", meme. How is it all these people were at or near the CS, but didn't see this shoe?

JMO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Am I remembering correctly that KG gave them each a sweatshirt for their walk that day?

Becky said, “You need to take a jacket. It’s nice but, who knows, you need to take a jacket”. Libby said, “It’s okay Grandma”.

Kelsi said, “So when we left, Libby was sitting up front and Abby was in the back. Neither of them had brought sweatshirts, which was really confusing to me, so I actually ran back inside and got Abby one of mine, and Libby had one in my backseat since she always rode with me. So I made them take those. … And then we stopped at the entrance to High Bridge and I made sure they both had the sweatshirts that I told them to take.”

But as Abby was wearing a jacket in the snapchat photo, I assume that’s what was on the backseat, not a sweatshirt. Libby must have taken the sweatshirt that Kelsi got from the house.

 

[JudgeJudi]

On my end, I think this further puts to rest the "searchers were all over the crime scene/where they were found that night/etc. and didn't find them", meme. How is it all these people were at or near the CS, but didn't see this shoe?
JMO

I don't recall reading that searchers were all over the crime scene or that they crossed the creek that night.

Here are a few bits and pieces:

From the full interview with Sgt Holeman:

"Obviously they had to go through some pretty steep terrain and wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it’s – and then to cross the creek."

If the area where the shoe was found was in this area with lots of bushes, remembering that the shoe was black, it may have been easy to miss in torchlight.

Kelsi in the Infamous Indy podcast:

"Around 7:30 in the morning we had all went back out to search.
…
Three of us chose to cross the bridge to look underneath the bridge on the opposite side.
Um, and that’s where I ended up hearing that we found the bodies.
...
I was standing on the trail that’s right under the bridge looking out into the woods and somebody yelled up that they had found a shoe.

And when they had found the shoe they had asked what kind of shoes the girls were wearing, and they yelled up the type of shoe that Libby was wearing. So I yelled down and told them that.

Actually then the person that had asked that had put up their phone and saw two deer in the ground moving. And so he was looking to see what it might be, and he saw two deer standing up there, and when he saw them, he moved the camera down, and that’s when we found them."

2: The Delphi Murders from Infamous Indy

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

Now, I am not sure you are right, but if indeed he is a SK that kills pairs, and if Lyric and Elizabeth were his doing, then I am positive he has OCD related to symmetry (you know, when you step over cracks in pavement with R, and next time, L, foot, or go up the stairs making equal amount of steps with R and L foot).

These two pairs of girls look similar, pointing at this symmetry. One, lighter and younger, another one, bigger and older.

Is he going to look for a couple slightly older than Libby and Abby next time? Like, 17 and 18?

Also of the same physical type?

And if the girls were in any way posed, I wonder if Lyric and Elizabeth’s remnants were placed the same way as Libby and Abby (I don’t know how, but for example, the larger girl on the Left?).

I am not sure BG is a SK and killed both couples, but if he did, there might be some “symmetry” analogy there.

He may not necessarily kill couples, but probably has “lairs” where he’d bring two bodies with the same physical characteristics as the girls, and place them in a certain way.

MOO.

BBM
Well, if that’s the case, it might make sense as to why LE released the video of him walking across the bridge. If he does have OCD, that may be reflected in the way he walks. In the presser where they released the video footage, DC says to watch the mannerisms. I wonder if they saw OCD tendencies reflected somehow in the crime scene and in his mannerisms. Personally, I don’t see anything out of the ordinary, but I’m also not a trained professional. Maybe there is something there that only someone trained to see it, or someone who knows him, would notice.

I also think it’s interesting that your theory involves opposites because the two composite sketches of BG would fit into that theory. One smaller and younger, one larger and older. May not mean anything, but just something I noted.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

This renovation does not sit well with me. If the killer was behind bars, I might think differently but right now it just seems wrong.

Eh, my understand is that it’s a pretty popular area to visit for people in the area. I think the idea is to “take back” the trails.

 

[Ozoner]

I just don't know what to make of Abby and Libby's case anymore. I still believe LE knows who the killer is because LE puts a lot of personalization in their interviews and press conferences. I also still believe the killer is local to the area of Delphi. I know posters have gone over what local means to them many, many times. I live in a rural area in another state that has a somewhat larger, not much, population. Local to me would be anything within 50 miles. Rural areas with few job opportunities will consider somewhere local when people from more densely populated areas would not due to the fact that the people from more populated places do not have to travel far to get what they need. I, like many of you, am fascinated by Falcon500's last post on this forum. He is verified LE and says serial killer. I have to give that idea weight now. At first, I did not think a serial killer was responsible. However, Abby and Libby's deaths do resemble Elizabeth and Lyric in many ways. I am sure there are a lot of differences too. The biggest similarity is the places where the crimes occurred. The Monon High Bridge area must have been extremely familiar to the killer. This leads me to believe a local with quite a bit of outdoor experience. Lizzy and Lyric were taken from Meyer's Lake area if I remember correctly, a public park with some secluded areas. Their bikes were found in one of those areas. Now, it would be easy to find Meyer's Lake. What makes me think their killer was an outdoor kind of person is where their bodies were found. The Seven Bridges area was isolated but not unknown. From what I can remember from the maps of the area, a person would have to know it was there to get to it. Maybe there is a serial killer. The mention on the podcast of possible signatures left by the killer lends support to that idea. I still have a hard times meshing serial killer with someone local to Delphi. Do ya'll think if it is a serial killer, that he lives in or around Delphi?

He might live near Delphi, but isn't more likely that he lives or lived near Evansdale? Isn't it more likely that he would start his murder career close to home and then fan out?

 

[holtzmann]

I'm just curious, do you think if the girls had been 8 and 9 or 9 and 10 years old instead of 13 and 14, would police have called off their searching overnight?

I have no idea. I'm not going to speculate on a situation that did not occur. And it doesn't matter what I think would have happened.

All I have been doing is trying to stress that LE was doing the best they could with the information they had with the procedures and policies they were accustomed to, and that I don't feel that wringing my hands about it now will change anything or help get justice for the girls.

I'm sorry that my comments come across as pushy; I have also been following this case for a long time and I share the same belief in my thoughts that all of you do in your own. I am not a newcomer to the case. If you all have felt disrespected, I do apologize.

 

[BNA]

Becky said, “You need to take a jacket. It’s nice but, who knows, you need to take a jacket”. Libby said, “It’s okay Grandma”.

Kelsi said, “So when we left, Libby was sitting up front and Abby was in the back. Neither of them had brought sweatshirts, which was really confusing to me, so I actually ran back inside and got Abby one of mine, and Libby had one in my backseat since she always rode with me. So I made them take those. … And then we stopped at the entrance to High Bridge and I made sure they both had the sweatshirts that I told them to take.”

But as Abby was wearing a jacket in the snapchat photo, I assume that’s what was on the backseat, not a sweatshirt. Libby must have taken the sweatshirt that Kelsi got from the house.

Oh. Well, that explains that. Thanks.

*Flips notepad shut. Pockets it. Walks towards door.*

*Stops. Turns back.*

*Asks one more thing.*

 

[Serdavc]

Now, I am not sure you are right, but if indeed he is a SK that kills pairs, and if Lyric and Elizabeth were his doing, then I am positive he has OCD related to symmetry (you know, when you step over cracks in pavement with R, and next time, L, foot, or go up the stairs making equal amount of steps with R and L foot).

These two pairs of girls look similar, pointing at this symmetry. One, lighter and younger, another one, bigger and older.

Is he going to look for a couple slightly older than Libby and Abby next time? Like, 17 and 18?

Also of the same physical type?

And if the girls were in any way posed, I wonder if Lyric and Elizabeth’s remnants were placed the same way as Libby and Abby (I don’t know how, but for example, the larger girl on the Left?).

I am not sure BG is a SK and killed both couples, but if he did, there might be some “symmetry” analogy there.

He may not necessarily kill couples, but probably has “lairs” where he’d bring two bodies with the same physical characteristics as the girls, and place them in a certain way.

MOO.

Very interesting ideas @Charlot123. I’m going to think about these for awhile. Symmetry....OCD....
Because Lyric and Lizzie were found so much later, I don’t know if there was anything found of significance like that in the area of seven bridges as it had been subjected to the elements for so long. MOO

 

[distracted]

Key quote for me:



Since the beginning on my end I've ruled out a random person stumbling upon an old bridge way back in the woods. This just doesn't happen. BG knows the bridge, knows the area around it, and probably knows a lot about it.

That said, the highway went through there only in 2014.

Those changes and the fact that it simply is not a well-traveled area with consistently-updated GPS info made my GPS go flaky in 2017 when I was out there, when trying to find C.R. 300 and the turnoff from the highway. I bring this up again because I think BG is familiar enough with the bridge area to know how to get there on his own, with no assistance from asking locals or a guidance deal like GPS. Which tells me he had been there, possibly many times.

Just as a hypothetical, imagine this guy tells someone they're going somewhere for the day, or part of a day, but instead they would go to the MHB and not tell anyone about it, ever. I don't know what that could have been on a Monday in February in northern IN, but I kind of picture someone with a double life who lies to family members or intimate partners or even employers as to his whereabouts. Someone who knows the MHB and perhaps many other outdoors-type places in the region, but isn't up front with people in his life about going to those places.

JMO



You have to know it's back in those woods. No official highway and road signs are nearby indicating anything is there.

JMO

If I stumbled across the bridge and trail, there's no way I would cross it in its present condition, even if I saw others doing it, but someone who was familiar with the bridge would know that it was safe to walk on. The girls knew it was safe enough, too.

Of course, someone who is interested in bridges like this one could have done his research and sought it out but killing the girls in broad daylight without any real-life experience with the surrounding area just doesn't seem likely. IMO

 

[Serdavc]

I too wonder what the signatures could be? It must be something that was found or done to the victim that would be unusual to be found in a normal killing?
Here are some I was thinking of -

Type of rope or tied knot?
A symbol that he left on a tree or their bodies?
A cut off locket of hair?
An earring or ear cut off?
Certain type or color of zip ties?
A missing article of clothing (like a sock, shoelace or bra)?
A bullet in the forehead?
A "letter" carved on the body?
A certain object used to desecrate their bodies?
Maybe a red or black rose lying across their chests?

@watcher9 I have thought this for awhile “A symbol that he left on a tree or their bodies?” My thought was, going with the idea of the significance of Valentines Day, that maybe BG carved a heart with initials in it, like young people do, But I thought maybe he carved it under the MHB? For those of you that have been to the bridge, can you see under the bridge? Do teens carve their initials under it? I know it sounds childish but the area of the MHB (and the area of Meyers Lake in IA) is a location where young people hang out. But you mention a carving in a tree by the CS so maybe that’s where it would be and maybe that’s why they thought they would catch this murderer quickly? Because he left his initials? MOO

 

[tresir2012]

I don't know if they did or not. It was very unclear. He was talking about probable cause and getting a search warrant isn't as easy as you might think. He was saying there would probably only be about 25 phones pinging off that tower at that time of day so that information would obviously be helpful, but I could not tell if they actually HAVE that information or not. Anyone else have an opinion after listening to the podcast?

Huh? Only 25 phones pinging at 2.30p.m on a Monday afternoon out of 3,000 residents? He's seems to be talking rubbish IMO. Never mind the hundreds passing on the Hoosier Highway. Do they have afternoon siestas in February or something?

 

[Falcon500]

@Falcon500 your post got me thinking of the SK possibility seriously for the first time in two years. After today’s DTH podcast, I think you are 100% correct. You have a great presence of mind. Thank you.
I am now currently working on a theory that BG has to be a either an Andersons Inc employee or a trucker that delivered to both Andersons Inc and Indiana packers. He knew how to get in and out of the area so well. And I think he delivered to Evansdale Iowa too and is connected to those murders too. Could you please give me your opinion on something? Is it possible that LE is already working on the same theory? Are they looking at all the employees of Anderson Inc or trucking company employees that delivered there in the past 10 years? I’m still convinced that BG knew the area from before the Hoosier Highway construction.

Of course they are investigating the chances that they have a serial killer. A couple of months ago I said there is a big difference between what the detectives are doing and what their spokesman is saying.

 

[TTF14]

Of course they are investigating the chances that they have a serial killer. A couple of months ago I said there is a big difference between what the detectives are doing and what their spokesman is saying.

Not to mention that both Carter and Ives seem to be resigned to this guy striking again and that in itself (if/when he kills again) makes him a serial killer, does it not?

 

[tresir2012]

I also found it a little confusing on the cell phone tower records as he did not clarify. I think they were probably not able to get a search warrant on the records of whose phones were pinging from the tower. If LE can present a suspect or POI they may be able to get a search warrant to find if his particular phone was pinging off from that tower but to find out whose phone(s) was pinging off that particular tower is too many people to justify probable cause and the Judge might think it violates the privacy laws of the general public. MOO

And if there were only 25 phones to check like Ives believes, then it would be easy to check them. This really makes me wonder if they found the phone number of someone high profile among those 25 phones.

ETA FBI would have just got a tower dump wouldn't they?

 

[pearl]

He might live near Delphi, but isn't more likely that he lives or lived near Evansdale? Isn't it more likely that he would start his murder career close to home and then fan out?

I made several mistakes while trying to make this reply. I apologize if I did something to someone's post.
If the killer murdered both sets of girls, he could very well live near Evansdale or another place. I chose Delphi because LE have said he has ties to Delphi. If it is the same guy, I think he may be employed with a traveling job in the agricultural industry. Evansdale and Delphi have plants that deal with animals.

 

[Cj707]

@Falcon500 your post got me thinking of the SK possibility seriously for the first time in two years. After today’s DTH podcast, I think you are 100% correct. You have a great presence of mind. Thank you.
I am now currently working on a theory that BG has to be a either an Andersons Inc employee or a trucker that delivered to both Andersons Inc and Indiana packers. He knew how to get in and out of the area so well. And I think he delivered to Evansdale Iowa too and is connected to those murders too. Could you please give me your opinion on something? Is it possible that LE is already working on the same theory? Are they looking at all the employees of Anderson Inc or trucking company employees that delivered there in the past 10 years? I’m still convinced that BG knew the area from before the Hoosier Highway construction.

Yes same here. I keep going back to the comment by DC at the press conference... "who's next??". After listening to the latest podcast and the 3 signatures" discussion, it's a.very real possibility to me. MOO